Hi Nexians ! Has anyone ever tried 1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) instead of propylene glycol for DMT e-cig juice ?
Peace
Peace
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1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) instead of propylene glycol for DMT e-cig juice ?
- Thread starter The Sofa Traveler
- Start date
Nobody ? I ask this because the 1-3 propanediol is sold in France under the brand Vegetol as an alternative to propylene glycol. I wonder about DMT solubility in it as well as overall efficiency for DMT aerosolization.
So is that just VG / Vegetable Glycerine? As in DMT is not that dissolvable in it.
It's not PG (1,2 propanediol - propylene glycol), neither VG (glycerol). 1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) is an organic compound which can be obtained by bio-fermentation of glycerol. It's less viscous than PG but I don't know about solubility and overall efficiency as PG substitute for DMT vape. That's the datas I'm looking for.
I'd remembered reading Vegetol in relation to VG, hence my comment. Happy to be wrong though.
Well so I put my hands on some 1,3-propanediol (trimethylene glycol/TG) and started to explore it. For the moment I only checked the DMT solubility in it and it seems quite good. I achieved to dissolve 1g DMT in 1,3ml trimethylene glycol quite easily, it seems to dissolve even faster than in PG (propylene glycol). It also seems slightly less viscous than PG and doesn't seem to precipitate the spice after rest at room temperature. Next step in my experiments will be to add some VG (glycerol/vegetable glycerin/VG) to the mix to have a point of comparison with my latest juices, which were mostly 50% PG/50% VG. Of course over time I'll explore other ratios, including pure TG.
I will try the juice with this new sub-ohm tank beauty, the BD Vape Precisio Sub-Ohm Blaster Edition. I have 0.15, 0.2, 0.3 and 0.4 coils for it, so a lot of settings to explore with this new tank. It is provided with 4,5ml bulb glass and 2ml straight glass and has top airflow.
Some might want to ask : why the trimethylene glycol instead of PG ? Several reasons. Some people could be wary inhaling petrochemical derived products like PG. Trimethylene glycol is a byproduct of biodiesel obtained by fermentation of glycerol (VG). Next, TG seems to be less harmful than PG at high heat exposition. Also, they claim TG is smoother on lungs and provides better nicotine bioavailability but I don't know if it will be the case with DMT. I will keep you updated on my future experiences. In France it's sold under brand name Végétol® as PG substitute. They even studied physical/chemical properties of TG and it seems to have a safe profile for this use.
Peace.
I will try the juice with this new sub-ohm tank beauty, the BD Vape Precisio Sub-Ohm Blaster Edition. I have 0.15, 0.2, 0.3 and 0.4 coils for it, so a lot of settings to explore with this new tank. It is provided with 4,5ml bulb glass and 2ml straight glass and has top airflow.
Some might want to ask : why the trimethylene glycol instead of PG ? Several reasons. Some people could be wary inhaling petrochemical derived products like PG. Trimethylene glycol is a byproduct of biodiesel obtained by fermentation of glycerol (VG). Next, TG seems to be less harmful than PG at high heat exposition. Also, they claim TG is smoother on lungs and provides better nicotine bioavailability but I don't know if it will be the case with DMT. I will keep you updated on my future experiences. In France it's sold under brand name Végétol® as PG substitute. They even studied physical/chemical properties of TG and it seems to have a safe profile for this use.
Peace.
Nice - so it has an established safety profile, does it? Please could you provide a link and some details here.
This does rather sound like a useful 'new' addition to the technological arsenal!
This does rather sound like a useful 'new' addition to the technological arsenal!
Link to the review is at the end of my previous post
And now you are here, I was just wondering if a chemist like you could determine the solubility of DMT in this substrate, because I have the impression that it is better than in PG (which would allow for more concentrated juices), but at this stage it is only my impression, that needs to be confirmed (or not). I'm probably gonna vape it next week-end to see how it feels and works. I prepared a 1g DMT/1,3ml TG/1,2ml VG juice ready to go, which I'll try with this new promising sub-ohm tank.
I'd have to see how easily obtainable the TG (1,3-PDO) is for me. In principle, anyone can determine a solubility level with a few pieces of relatively simple equipment.
Looking forward to hearing more of how the new juice works for you!
OK, so toxicologically speaking we have a profile superior to that of PG:Link to the review is at the end of my previous post
It would be good to dig up the specifics of those references - the provision of a more explicit clarification of the safety profile is generally considered to be the responsibility of the person who first introduces the novel material to a space - or that's at least analogous to the rules we have here for discussing novel psychoactive substances.
Ok, I somewhat naively thought that it could be determined simply based on the physico-chemical properties of 1,3-PDO.
For those wondering about safety profile, you included if you didn't have time to read the review, here is a quote from the conclusion :
After the tests I'm planning we'll now if it could be a serious substitute candidate to PG. PDO is quite easy to obtain, at least in France : I bought it from an online vape shop.
I'll keep the community informed of my future experiments with it.
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Sure. I guess if it's sold legally in France as PG substitute, safety profile is probably not bad but we definitely have to investigate deeper that aspect (if the PDO happens to be suitable for DMT e-cig juices from an efficiency standpoint).
The paper with the physicochemical properties was worth a good skim at the very least, so I'll acknowledge the GRAS status again (while resisting the temptation to veer off on too cynical a tangent regarding that
)
Hello, moi c'est Cyryl et je débute. Tu me conseilles d'acheter quelle vapoteuse et quel mélange GP/VP dans lequel dissoudre mon gramme d'épice ?
Salut Cyryl, je te suggère de créer un post dédié et j'y répondrai éventuellement. On va tâcher de garder ce thread centré sur le sujet indiqué dans le titre (le trimethylène glycol comme substitut au PG). Aussi, l'anglais est la langue préconisée sur ce forum, tu peux utiliser un traducteur en ligne si tu n'es pas à l'aise avec la langue de Shakespeare.
Dans tous les cas je t'invite à découvrir et explorer le forum, la question des e-cigs et autres y est déjà bien présente.
Ok d'accord, thanx
Well, I finally dipped my toes in the PDO 
Initial attempts, observations and impressions
So tonight I decided to experiment a little the DMT/PDO/VG juice I made. It's not really an in-depth trial, I wasn't in mood to go too deep with the spice. I was mostly eager to spray that famous PDO (trimethylene glycol/1,3-propanediol). I'll first mention the setup and the settings on a quick overview then I'll digress and bring some details and insights.
Setup and settings overview
The juice
The juice I made was 1g DMT/1,3ml PDO/1,2ml VG. A 1g/2,5ml concentration so. No citric acid this time. I first dissolved the gram in the 1,3ml PDO and added the VG once dissolved. It dissolved well and quickly with only a slight heating of the mix.
The setup
The tank
The tank was the BD Vape Precisio Sub-ohm Blaster Edition. Basically, a special edition from their usual Precisio Sub-ohm. It is provided with a semi-long metallic drip tip, which is a good point. You don't feel like the tank is almost in your mouth with the usual short drip-tips provided with some sub-ohm tanks. The whole tank (Pyrex and gaskets apart) as well as the drip-tip are made of stainless steel with a nice finish . Built quality is a cut above most of the sub-ohm tanks I own.
It is 26mm at the base, which is moderately fat compared to some other sub-ohm tanks, it makes it easy to to be aesthetically consistent with a lot of mods. It's the same diameter as the commonly used Geekvape Zeus Sub-Ohm
It's provided with a 4,5ml bulb Pyrex and a 2ml straight Pyrex. I used the 2ml straight, not only for aesthetic reasons but also because to me it's the most convenient capacity for home use. The small capacity helps keeping the wick well soaked when using (or when only remains) small amounts of juice.
It's the first time I'm going to use it with DMT juice but I ride it with regular nicotine vape since months. I love it, that's why I bought a second copy, to not spoil and block my copy dedicated to nicotine.
The coils
Existing coils for this tank are in the 0.15Ω-0.4Ω range, all meshed. Respectively 0.15Ω, 0.2Ω, 0.3Ω and 0.4Ω. For this first attempt, I used the 0.3Ω coil which has a recommended power range for nicotine vape of 45-60 watts. This recommended range is given for nicotine vape and the advised PG/VG ratio, which for sub-ohm coils is usually at least 50% VG and >= 70% VG for the biggest tanks/lower ohm coils. You'll definitely use less power for DMT vape due to longer puffs, especially if you use 100% PG.
The mod
I've got several mods and this time I chose the Geekvape T200, a dual battery mod with touch screen. I chose it because it looks very nice with the Precisio tank and also, the big touch screen has good readability and allows quick and easy navigation through the parameters without incidentally firing the coil by pressing the fire button to navigate in the settings. I'm however hesitant to use this mod when it comes to have spice sessions with friends as it happened that during use the touch screen has been incidentally unlocked, followed by incidental vape mode change and coil burn. In general I wouldn't recommend to beginners to buy a dual batteries mod, they are overkill and sometimes complicated to use with a lot of more or less useless options. Any single battery mod with power/watts mode easily can do the job. For DMT vape you probably won't need to go over 40 watts, which most of them can deliver.
The settings
For this test I used the common power/watts mode set to 26 watts, which for this coil is rather on the conservative side. Years ago I used to ride the TC (Temperature Control) mode but I gave up. Too inconsistent and tank choice limiting as you only can use it with dedicated coils made of stainless steel, nickel or titan, which anyway don't exist for this tank. Watts/power mode is universal and works with any tank and coils in a consistent way regardless the mod model. It's easy to set compared to TC mode who needs to understand a bit how it works to get the best out of it and set it properly.
First crash-test
Preliminaries
I dissolved 200mg harmalas freebase in a few lemon juice to which I then added some water. Not too much, just enough to be drank in one gulp. I was fasted for about 2h30. The drink started to kick in notably at about T+40mn. Nothing particular to report on this stage. At T+1h I settle down on a mattress, accompanied by background music while projecting music visuals onto the wall at low luminosity. I fine-tune some settings on the projector and the music app (Musicolet) then decide to go.
The vaporization/aerosolization
Effects intensity and length
I first took a short puff, like 1-2 seconds. I did this first because when I used tanks like the Geekvape Zeus or the Z-Max, the air bubbles that formed between the coil and the chimney wall tended to burst, especially after long term storage. It never happened with the Precisio on my nicotine use and didn't happen this time. Good point. I then took a 3-4 seconds puff and quickly felt the spice effects through my body, which I know is good news for a puff of this length. Slower onset due to harmalas, peak of the puff was probably reached 1-2 minutes later. I then quickly took another 3-4 seconds puff.
Ok, stuff works pretty fine. I closed my eyes and let my mind wander, accompanied by usual self transforming geometric shapes and landscapes. Euphoria waves follow one another. I noticed the first 20mn ambient track, Kazakhstan from Brian Eno's Music For Installations, finished while effects were still there. Some shorter Boards Of Canada tracks followed, accompanying the decreasing trajectory. Harmalas definitely worked fine, I estimate total trip length to be something like 45mn, which is quite nice for such a low spice dose (harmalas dose was solid though).
Taste
Lets talk about the puffs and the vaporization. Taste wise I noticed nothing particular. A slight DMT taste similar in intensity to what I'm used to with PG/VG juices. No burnt or nasty taste, which lead me to conclude the first setting I chose for this coil is not bad.
Lungs absorption and overall efficiency
I might be biased and the claim needs further experiments but I felt it very efficient. I need to practice more to confirm (or not) this point as it's also the first time I use this tank for DMT vape. I also might be biased because the manufacturer of the PDO claims for a better bio-availability for nicotine.
Throat/lungs feeling
The PDO being smoother than PG is another claim of the manufacturer. PG is known to be a mild allergen and irritant on lungs/throat for some people. Definitely nothing noticeable on this topic with the PDO/VG juice, no itchy feeling. I'm not the best guinea pig to analyze this though as I vape nicotine since about 10 years and I'm quite accustomed to the PG and vape juices.
One thing I noticed is a kind of quite unusual heat feeling on the throat. The aerosol was quite cold due to low watts settings so I attribute that to the more alkaline pH of PDO. I need to find some guinea pigs aka friends of mine with sensitive lungs/throat to explore this further. The alkalinity could anyway be corrected with a pinch of citric acid, which I probably will try with the next juice. For the moment the juice is trapped in the tank so it's hard to add the citric acid now without removing the coil and losing some of the precious juice during the handling.
First impressions
This first attempt seems to confirm that the PDO could be a nice substitute to the PG in DMT e-cig juices. I see several advantages to it :
To be continued...
Initial attempts, observations and impressions
So tonight I decided to experiment a little the DMT/PDO/VG juice I made. It's not really an in-depth trial, I wasn't in mood to go too deep with the spice. I was mostly eager to spray that famous PDO (trimethylene glycol/1,3-propanediol). I'll first mention the setup and the settings on a quick overview then I'll digress and bring some details and insights.
Setup and settings overview
- 1g DMT/2,5ml juice ratio made of 1,3ml PDO and 1,2ml VG
- Precisio Sub-ohm Blaster Edition tank with 2ml straight Pyrex
- 0.3Ω mesh coil with recommended nicotine use power range of 45-60 watts.
- Geekvape T200 mod in power/watts mode set to 26 watts
The juice
The juice I made was 1g DMT/1,3ml PDO/1,2ml VG. A 1g/2,5ml concentration so. No citric acid this time. I first dissolved the gram in the 1,3ml PDO and added the VG once dissolved. It dissolved well and quickly with only a slight heating of the mix.
The setup
The tank
The tank was the BD Vape Precisio Sub-ohm Blaster Edition. Basically, a special edition from their usual Precisio Sub-ohm. It is provided with a semi-long metallic drip tip, which is a good point. You don't feel like the tank is almost in your mouth with the usual short drip-tips provided with some sub-ohm tanks. The whole tank (Pyrex and gaskets apart) as well as the drip-tip are made of stainless steel with a nice finish . Built quality is a cut above most of the sub-ohm tanks I own.
It is 26mm at the base, which is moderately fat compared to some other sub-ohm tanks, it makes it easy to to be aesthetically consistent with a lot of mods. It's the same diameter as the commonly used Geekvape Zeus Sub-Ohm
It's provided with a 4,5ml bulb Pyrex and a 2ml straight Pyrex. I used the 2ml straight, not only for aesthetic reasons but also because to me it's the most convenient capacity for home use. The small capacity helps keeping the wick well soaked when using (or when only remains) small amounts of juice.
It's the first time I'm going to use it with DMT juice but I ride it with regular nicotine vape since months. I love it, that's why I bought a second copy, to not spoil and block my copy dedicated to nicotine.
The coils
Existing coils for this tank are in the 0.15Ω-0.4Ω range, all meshed. Respectively 0.15Ω, 0.2Ω, 0.3Ω and 0.4Ω. For this first attempt, I used the 0.3Ω coil which has a recommended power range for nicotine vape of 45-60 watts. This recommended range is given for nicotine vape and the advised PG/VG ratio, which for sub-ohm coils is usually at least 50% VG and >= 70% VG for the biggest tanks/lower ohm coils. You'll definitely use less power for DMT vape due to longer puffs, especially if you use 100% PG.
The mod
I've got several mods and this time I chose the Geekvape T200, a dual battery mod with touch screen. I chose it because it looks very nice with the Precisio tank and also, the big touch screen has good readability and allows quick and easy navigation through the parameters without incidentally firing the coil by pressing the fire button to navigate in the settings. I'm however hesitant to use this mod when it comes to have spice sessions with friends as it happened that during use the touch screen has been incidentally unlocked, followed by incidental vape mode change and coil burn. In general I wouldn't recommend to beginners to buy a dual batteries mod, they are overkill and sometimes complicated to use with a lot of more or less useless options. Any single battery mod with power/watts mode easily can do the job. For DMT vape you probably won't need to go over 40 watts, which most of them can deliver.
The settings
For this test I used the common power/watts mode set to 26 watts, which for this coil is rather on the conservative side. Years ago I used to ride the TC (Temperature Control) mode but I gave up. Too inconsistent and tank choice limiting as you only can use it with dedicated coils made of stainless steel, nickel or titan, which anyway don't exist for this tank. Watts/power mode is universal and works with any tank and coils in a consistent way regardless the mod model. It's easy to set compared to TC mode who needs to understand a bit how it works to get the best out of it and set it properly.
First crash-test
Preliminaries
I dissolved 200mg harmalas freebase in a few lemon juice to which I then added some water. Not too much, just enough to be drank in one gulp. I was fasted for about 2h30. The drink started to kick in notably at about T+40mn. Nothing particular to report on this stage. At T+1h I settle down on a mattress, accompanied by background music while projecting music visuals onto the wall at low luminosity. I fine-tune some settings on the projector and the music app (Musicolet) then decide to go.
The vaporization/aerosolization
Effects intensity and length
I first took a short puff, like 1-2 seconds. I did this first because when I used tanks like the Geekvape Zeus or the Z-Max, the air bubbles that formed between the coil and the chimney wall tended to burst, especially after long term storage. It never happened with the Precisio on my nicotine use and didn't happen this time. Good point. I then took a 3-4 seconds puff and quickly felt the spice effects through my body, which I know is good news for a puff of this length. Slower onset due to harmalas, peak of the puff was probably reached 1-2 minutes later. I then quickly took another 3-4 seconds puff.
Ok, stuff works pretty fine. I closed my eyes and let my mind wander, accompanied by usual self transforming geometric shapes and landscapes. Euphoria waves follow one another. I noticed the first 20mn ambient track, Kazakhstan from Brian Eno's Music For Installations, finished while effects were still there. Some shorter Boards Of Canada tracks followed, accompanying the decreasing trajectory. Harmalas definitely worked fine, I estimate total trip length to be something like 45mn, which is quite nice for such a low spice dose (harmalas dose was solid though).
Taste
Lets talk about the puffs and the vaporization. Taste wise I noticed nothing particular. A slight DMT taste similar in intensity to what I'm used to with PG/VG juices. No burnt or nasty taste, which lead me to conclude the first setting I chose for this coil is not bad.
Lungs absorption and overall efficiency
I might be biased and the claim needs further experiments but I felt it very efficient. I need to practice more to confirm (or not) this point as it's also the first time I use this tank for DMT vape. I also might be biased because the manufacturer of the PDO claims for a better bio-availability for nicotine.
Throat/lungs feeling
The PDO being smoother than PG is another claim of the manufacturer. PG is known to be a mild allergen and irritant on lungs/throat for some people. Definitely nothing noticeable on this topic with the PDO/VG juice, no itchy feeling. I'm not the best guinea pig to analyze this though as I vape nicotine since about 10 years and I'm quite accustomed to the PG and vape juices.
One thing I noticed is a kind of quite unusual heat feeling on the throat. The aerosol was quite cold due to low watts settings so I attribute that to the more alkaline pH of PDO. I need to find some guinea pigs aka friends of mine with sensitive lungs/throat to explore this further. The alkalinity could anyway be corrected with a pinch of citric acid, which I probably will try with the next juice. For the moment the juice is trapped in the tank so it's hard to add the citric acid now without removing the coil and losing some of the precious juice during the handling.
First impressions
This first attempt seems to confirm that the PDO could be a nice substitute to the PG in DMT e-cig juices. I see several advantages to it :
- First, the PDO is a natural by-product, unlike the petrochemical-derived PG.
- Being non-allergen (to be confirmed) could be another one.
- DMT solubility in it is quite good and I suspect it to be even better than in PG, which would allow for more concentrated juices without DMT precipitating. Further experiments with more concentrated juices needed to confirm.
- Safety profile seems correct, review shows less toxic by-products than PG when (over)heated. Not to mention that in France (a rather fussy country) the product obtained marketing authorization for e-cig use as substitute to PG. Actually, it's a French lab who investigated it for this purpose.
- I see mostly 2 downsides for the moment : the higher alkalinity of PDO compared to PG, but this could be adjusted with citric acid. The other downside is the poor market availability of the PDO outside of France.
To be continued...
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Positively poetic
as is the rest of your nicely-written account.Glycerol feels warm in the mouth, perhaps it could be a mild chemoreceptor effect, since PDO is just glycerol minus the middle oxygen atom. And you did, of course, add VG to the mix as well.
I would say the lower relative acidity of PDO compared to PG is largely insignificant - but if it dissolves more DMT the solution naturally will be more basic.
Thanks for the thorough write-up, and I look forward to both the further updates and to PDO becoming more widely available.
