Hi, I have a friend who has acquired a 2KG supply of Mimosa Hostilis Inner Powdered Rootbark on behalf of a friend. In any case, he has been following the tek listed here: http://www.spiritelf.com/substances/index.php?doc=63 and I have to say I am highly impressed by it's simplicity. (I know there is some debate around straight to base teks like this, but they do seem to work well for mimosa, since this contains little fats, or chlorophyll etc (so no need for defatting, or the acidification stages). In any case my friend would like to use this tek - but as he has such a substantial supply of mimosa (roughly 4x the amount that is being worked in this tek) he is curious as to whether he should simply use 4x the amount of water and chemicals used in this tek too - or if maybe it doesn't work like that? He also notes that this tek doesn't give a specific value for the initial water/sodium hydroxide mix - and while he is aware that the author was probably keen to preserve the simplicity of the tek, he feels that this value should be able to be clearly established. He is highly uncertain if simply 4xing the amount of water used and the amount of Sodium Hydroxide (and the amount of Naphtha) will preserve the correct PH value - and the correct chemical balance also, or if doing this might have some kind of adverse effect? He notes from reading other teks that in several instances some amateur chemists have failed to successfully complete this experiment due to using too much Naphtha and other chemicals. Having spent a considerable sum of money in setting up this experiment, he is keen to do everything he can to ensure that he doesn't screw up. He would therefore welcome any advice anyone on this forum feels able to offer. He would be most grateful in particular if any such advice referred directly to the above tek alone and not to some deviation of this, or to any discussion about the relative merits of any other possible teks - as this is only likely to confuse him considerably. Thanks.
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2KG Mimosa Hostilis Straight to base?
- Thread starter raid517
- Start date
Well the wet weight of this initial pull was 20 grams. SWIM assumes most of this is Naphtha. [img:ae3c2147b4]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/raid517/NewImage2.jpg[/img:ae3c2147b4] However SWIM learned a very valuable and potentially costly lesson - which is to not be impatient. SWIM decided he would try to hasten evaporation/drying of the crystals by placing the bowl in a pan of hot water. However upon doing so the crystals quickly began to break apart. SWIM almost saw all of his efforts dissolve into nothing. However with some quick thinking SWIM grabbed the bowl and immediately placed it in some cold water and he was able to prevent a genuine disaster. The volume reduced by approximately 40% in a very short period of time. However SWIM does not feel he lost anything significant and that he probably lost mainly solvent and the resulting goo in the bottom of the bowl has began to solidify again.. SWIM knows now however that he should never do anything like this again with his subsequent pulls, if he is fortunate enough to get anything out of them. He thinks he will go with recrystallization of the total net gathered from all of the pulls - and that hopefully he will end up with a nice clean /pure product.. However the lesson he learned is significant - and that is that these crystals are only really very stable at around room temperature - anything very much above this could pose serious problems. Edit: More evidence that impatience costs dear. SWIN decided that he would try smoking some of dry yellowish powder on the right. He used a very sparing amount and put it in a small joint, comprising of 1 rizla (roll up paper) and a little tobacco. Boy is that stuff fucking vile! SWIM thinks that sniffing glue must be more pleasant than that - and that you would have to be fucking desperate to get high on that stuff. He acknowledges that it was very impure - and now thinks that it was probably the stupidest thing he has ever done - and he has no intention of ever doing it again. He will recrystallize and get a pure product and then look at alternative methods of consuming it.. He understands completely what people say about the product smelling of burnt plastic because it literally does reek of it, his whole apartment stinks of it.. SWIM hopes he will be happier when he has a much purer product. BTW the effects were really strong, but he did use a very sparing amount and TBH the feeling was rather like one might expect if they has been working in close confines with some solvent and had accidentally gotten a bit high off it. (Hence the reference to glue as this has happened to me in the past - and no I have never deliberately sniffed glue). It was that overwhelming 'fucked in the head' feeling. But it was very short lived and there were no visuals or anything like that, so still very threshold I guess. Anyway SWIM hopes he hasn't done himself any serious or permanent harm smoking this impure substance and will refrain from attempting again until he is convinced that he has a clean product.
zero
Rising Star
Well youve just learned one of the cardinal rules for post-extraction procedures. If I was left with what you have in that pic, I would spread those crystals around and let them dry thouroughly... and patiently! Then I would do 1 or 2 recrystallizations and then... well, then it would be travel time!
So I've lost track, swim got that pile of powder from 100ml of the naptha from one of the jars? At any rate he's pulling spice, so good going. My friend would skip to recrystalization if swim thinks smoking his spice is nasty. The ammonia wash won't clean it up nearly as much.
Well yeah man you have lost track a bit. 20grams of wet material from 100ml of liquid? I wish that were even possible. Recrystallization sounds like a load of effort though - although the ammonia wash isn't likely to help clean up the oily paste that some of the crystals dissolved into during my ill advised attempts to speed up drying, as this itself has now dried into much larger lumps). SWIM is tempted to go for recrystallization of some of his final product though (perhaps when he has done a full extraction cycle) as the amount of dry product (at a rough guesstimate) that he got in the end wasn't so bad (at around 6g) and he may try smoking this again at that time. However he envisages that overall he will probably stick to snorting it, as this seems like a better approach.
magic clown
aka Slap Stick Sam
Let me see if I understand this thread. You suspect your spice is not particularly pure and you find recrystalizing to be too much of a faf. So you decide, to keep it simple, your going to snort it. Your nose is just going to love you. Learning to pull the stuff, is only half of it, you really do need to know how to clean the stuff up. A half hearted approach is lame and quite frankly, its not worth doing. If however, you do decide to insfulate, post your experience. I'll put my red nose on in sympathy and roll around laughing.
Well laugh all you want mate. I don't care. At the end of the day after screwing up the first pull by heating it and ending up with a large amount of gummy paste, the choice was to recrystallize, or do an ammonia wash. The ammonia wash would be pointless, how much use would an ammonia wash be on these lumps of gummy paste? It would barely pierce the surface. Anyway the substance is a light yellowish colour. I have certainly seen worse in all the teks I have read, so surely it can't be that bad? SWIM hasn't ruled out recrystallization, but he will defer that decision until he has completed a full collection cycle and then he will look at the net weight before forming a conclusion. However I'm not particularly hopeful on SWIM's behalf - as the initial pull of 20g was significant (even if it dried to only half this), so we will have to wait and see whether any subsequent extractions actually recover anything more.
zero
Rising Star
Ok... I, as do most people in this forum, want to help you. You're number of 20g means pretty much nothing as you weighed it before it was dry, but thats beside the point. Your logic on this matter isnt making too much sense and it seems you may be being hasty, and maybe you're sort of new at this so it may be of value to listen to some of the elders, so to speak. So, if I have it right... you think that recrystallization may be too much trouble and you also think that an ammonia wash will be pointless, so youre opting to do neither and just insufflate it. Is that right? Please listen when I tell you this... if you choose NOT to recrystallize (which would be a poor choice), you NEED to at least do an ammonia wash man. It will NOT be pointless. Granted, it may not suffice to do a THOROUGH cleaning, but it WILL clean up at least some/many of the hydroxides and other impurities. Fof the sake of your poor nose, at least do that. If you think its pointless then weigh what you have before the ammonia wash and after. Much of that loss will have been impurities.
SWIM is just worried about losing stuff more than anything. From 20 grams to 4.9 grams dried weight is a long way down. Then with a wash (as you say weigh it afterwards) it will be only a small proportion of this. Anyway SWIM does wonder how effective a wash will be. The yellowish gummy paste is yellowish throughout and has a waxy surface consistency, so it is hard to see how the ammonia wash can penetrate this and clean anything up. If it was still crystals, then maybe, because you would simply be washing the surface area of the crystals. But unless you were able to somehow dissolve completely this gummy type substance in ammonia and then recollect the salts in some way, it is hard to see how it would be effective other than carrying away both impurities and a lot of DMT too. However as I said, SWIM will reserve judgement on recrystallization until a full collection cycle is complete. Also SWIM does appreciate people's help here, but as a learner he is not so keen on the idea of people poking fun at him. If SWIM had his choices again, there are some things SWIM would have done differently. SWIM would have almost certainly tried a smaller scale experiment, He would have selected cheaper materials (plastic instead of a lot of expensive glassware) and he would have attempted to minimise the cost of the experiment as much as possible. But SWIM seriously overestimated the amount of raw materials that would be needed to pull off a successful experiment. Other mistakes that were made - well the biggest one pissing me off right now is SWIM melting down and loosing a lot of those 20 grams of crystals. I'm sure if SWIM hadn't done that, no matter how things turned out, the end net weight would have been much more than he has now. He is just a bit pissed at the cost of it all, for what ultimately seems like such a meagre return. So that is probably why he is having a sense of humour failure round about now.
Well maybe your right, maybe the solvent wrapped up in all of those crystals was much heavier than SWIM thought. As a worst case scenario, SWIM had hoped that maybe only half this wet weight was solvent. But maybe it was a lot more and this is all SWIM can expect at this stage. Hopefully subsequent collection cycles will help up this total somewhat. Smoking it still presents a problem for SWIM - as the taste is excruciatingly horrible, so unless pure crystal is significantly different, I'm not sure how well SWIM will fare. Anyway a gram of this oily DMT would require how much solvent exactly? Just curious thanks.
[quote:a33fd49d04="Salvia_Antics"]Im sure once you smoke it, and actually trip hard, it will seem more worth it. And thinking that you were going to be able to keep the weight of the wet DMT is sorta just like setting your self up to be disappointed. And recrystallization is the best thing you can do to purify. I had what you described as the gooey yellow stuff and once i recrystallized most of that material became quite smokable crystals. It is soo easy just put a gram in a shot glass in a container heat up with a hot water bath from your tap. Then pour in as much naptha in to dissolve it and just let it cool to room temp and either put it in the fridge>freezer and freeze precip or just let it sit out and evap in room temp. Either way it will be a nice product with minimum losses. And you don't want the contam and impure shit in your spice anyways. RECRYSTALLIZE!!!!!!!![/quote:a33fd49d04] OK SWIM has gone for recrystallization of approximately 4 grams as you describe it. I used approximately 100 ml per gram, which is what I have seen recomended in various teks. (So about 400 ml in total). SWIM dissolved the DMT wax like substance in some hot fresh naphtha, which was placed in a small half litre pyrex jug (the naphtha was heated in a pan of hot water until the impure substance dissolved. This has now been placed in the freezer. There was no scummy layer to collect in the bottom corner of the collection jar, after the solution cooled to room temperature, however the solution still has a yellowish tint (so not completely clear) so presumably any resulting crystals will also still have this yellowish tint. I guess I could do a couple of more cycles. I mean, SWIM could recrystallise then filter off the run off/excess naphtha (save it for evap) then add some fresh naphtha to the jug and add the crystals back into this also, then dissolve the crystals again, then recrystallize. But this will take a long time. How many times would one need to do something like this to get some nice clean crystals? Thanks.
zero
Rising Star
Recrystallization can be tricky sometimes. The idea is to get it hot enough to dissolve the crystals but not quite dissolve the layer of gunk that should form first. This is why you should start with just room temp naphtha and then use the heat bath so you can see the process as it happens. SWIM usually does this and gives it a minute for the impurities to solidify and stick to the bottom a bit and then quickly transfers the naphtha to be precipitated into another container. People have different methods for this process, play with it and find what works. Your first extraction is usually the one you learn from the most so pay attention to the mistakes youve made. It'll pay off next time. Also, believe me, if youve recrystallized correctly, the results will not taste foul, they will not make your lips/tongue numb. Make sure that you let your final crystals dry THOROUGHLY. If you precipitate, pour them into a coffee filter, spread them around/chop them up with a razor and let em dry. If you evaporate, DO NOT touch them until they are obviously dry and twinkly.
Damn, well it seems SWIM is no further along then. He will just end up with a bunch of yellow crystals again. Is there any way to separate out the yellow colouring in this current state, or will he just have to recrystallize and try again? I have no reference point in my mind to tell SWIM as to at what point is the correct point at which to gauge when the DMT is melted and when to collect the gunk. SWIM simply swirled the crystals around in the Naphtha until everything had dissolved again. There were Teks that said to leave the dissolved crystals in the hot naphtha for as much as 15 minutes. Anyway I suppose a more or less straight recrystallization won't do too much harm, although, each time SWIM does something like this he seems to loose more and more product. The other thing that confuses SWIM is that Sodium Hydroxide is stated as being non dissolvable in Naphtha, so whatever is being removed during recrystallization, it doesn't seem likely that much of it is NaOH. So if the crystals do contain NaOH, then recrystallization in Naphtha doesn't seem to be the best way to remove it. It's a pity there isn't some kind of filter that is transparent to naphtha and DMT - but which is impervious to NaOH and these colouring molecules. Is there anything that would bind to these colouring molecules/impurities and that would allow them to be evaporated off? For example how about some pure alcohol? I think these colourings might be a little too heavy to bind/become soluable in any way to alcohol, however it would be useful to find a way to get rid of the impurities without progressively loosing valuable product in the process too.
zero
Rising Star
I would say just finish it up and see what you have, either way it will be cleaner than what you had. SWIM has done evaps in the distant past that have left yellow crystals, then recrystallized and still had yellowish crystals. Some people are just down right anal about it, but he says he smoked those crystals and they were just as smooth as any others, and they sent him to hyperspace just as quickly and with just as much style as any others as well.
Well I recon so too. But I guess SWIM will probably do a cold ammonia bath as a final step. At a guess, maybe the crystals will be permeable to this solution and it might well wash some additional impurities out. I mean peeps wouldn't say to do it if it didn't make sense, right? And in any case alternating between the fridge and the freezer and dissolving out some of the smaller crystals will improve purity anyway, right? So how much ammonia should he use? Does he need to water the ammonia down any? In any case he looked at the jug and after only an hour, he has a lot of crystals dropping out of the solution which look really quite white. So it is probably working quite well.
Mmm, I think SWIM understand how to separate out the crap from the solution now. SWIM accidentally left some naphtha in a bowl for approximately 24 hours at room temperature that had been used as a part of his initial extraction attempts. SWIM isn't going to be anal, but after doing this he has noticed a thick layer of scummy yellowish insoluble powdery crap that has conveniently gathered in the bottom of the jar. The neat thing about this is that it appears to have gathered together into a consistent and cloudy mass. So the question is not one of timing, or just picking out the right instant, rather than one of sheer patience. If one waits long enough then the majority of this gunk will drop out of solution. One could therefore even, very carefully and slowly, add a few ml's of solvent every couple of hours to account for any potentially unwanted evaporation (at this stage) being careful not to stir up the solution in doing so and then use a pipette, or a syringe to carefully drain off the top layer and decant this to another container for freeze precipitation, being very careful to leave the bottom scummy layer behind. In this sense I would expect that after a few days the majority of the crap in the solution will have settled out to the bottom - so you should be left with a nice clean solvent/DMT solution. (Providing of course that the DMT will stay in solution for this long?) The only thing I think that you might have to bare in mind is to use a long tall glass container of some kind, so that the majority of the scum can stay neatly in the bottom. So this is pretty much a solvent wash before precipitation. In theory it is very easy to do - although it is still very time consuming. It would be neat if these was a faster way to speed up the process.
Well anyway, that's what SWIM intends to do. As a final experiment he has redissolved his crystals, added about 100ML of solvent to account for evaporation, pured the solvent (which was about 400ml in total at that point)) into a tall glass, covered the glass with cellophane/cling film and sealed this with a rubber band and placed it somewhere where he can observe progress. SWIM will go away for three days on Friday anyway, so he won't have to think about it very much - and when he comes back hopefully he will have a good separation layer. Ideally he is looking for the majority of unwanted organic compounds and impurities to drop out of solution and leave a nice clear liquid top layer, although he is not sure how successful this will be. As a final step he will evap this hopefully cleaner layer down to half it's volume at that point (so around 200ML, if this hasn't happened naturally by that point). to raise the concentration of the salts in the solution - and then he will try freeze precipitation again. SWIM is betting on getting maybe at the most a couple of grams of very pure crystals. Still nothing to write home about, but at least he has clarified some of his mistakes and given him insight into how he can improve his methodology.
OK just a small update in SWIMS thinking. He wonders if perhaps the reason the scum from his first accidental sample dropped out of solution in this way was because the it had evaporated down to such a concentration that it allowed the impurities to 'clump together' in some way and therefore become too heavy to be supported by the solvent? He wonders this as after several hours there is no difference in the cloudiness of his primary sample. He thinks that perhaps there is a certain critical point where the density of this residue becomes too heavy to be supported by the solvent, although at what point this density might occur may require careful observation. He will however persist with his initial experiment and will wait until Monday to see if he can see any significant changes. After this, if no significant changes occur, he will try natural evaporation, and will observe if at any point a scummy layer does emerge. Edit: Stuff it, SWIM has decided that this logic makes most sense, since the impurities right now are probably too dilute to drop out of solution at any significant rate. The Naphtha will not increase in density over time, however clearly these impurities will. So he has placed a piece of toilet paper over the top of the glass and secured this with an elastic band to stop any dust or bugs getting into his sample and and has placed this in a warm bright well ventilated location by the window. He will then observe the rate of evaporation over the next 24 hours. He hopes the rate will be slow enough so that the solvent will not reduce down too quickly while he is away and leave him with nothing. (Or at least require that he needs to re-add solvent). Although he may place the sample in the fridge (not freezer) while he is away to prevent this from happening.
Ok I saved up.. Proper Procedure is to solubilize all tryptamines in MHRB in an acid aqueous extract. Ask any chemist... The acid extraction is why you Get at ALL the dmt ... totally dissolved, and at your command .. ready to jump anywhere you say. If you abuse the dmt and MHRB by extracting in a Lye bath at pH 13 or more, you are throwing away 50% of your yeild, and getting lousy, contaminated yeild... If you use "Propoer Procedure", and UNDERSTAND why you are doing it ... then you'll get 0.8% or higher yeild that is white and pure. The pure, dmt is very easy to smoke, and even insufflate. The yellow oils from MHRB are not a problem either, and ought to be in 20% or less of the yeild if you evaporate. Recrystalizing works if it's not a gumbo-stew you're working with in the first place... If you don't do an acid extraction first, you risk running into all the fuck ups you have experienced here - Newbies opting for the 'simple' tek .. the dumb-ass tek, imo, will risk wandering right into this kind of crap. And I bet before giving it up, you'll smoke some crappy-trip dmt even ... .. ! Why bother wasting MHRB on a bad Tek >!? If you are too 'poor' to afford doing it RIGHT, why buy MHRB ..? ..! The dmt is quite stable in a well filtered, aqueous, pH 2 - 4 solution, - This is the first step in getting dmt out of MHRB . ! The filtered, acid extract can be stored in the fridge for weeks. The lye - pH 11 stage is quick - It does not take long for all the dmt to go into the naphtha - After 30 minutes of gentle, tumbling contact between naphtha at 20 deg c and the black, basified, pH 11 solution you're ready to take out the solvent, and do another pull. Each naphtha pull needs no more than 30 minutes of 'tumbling' ... So commit 90 - 120 minutes of uninterrupted time to this stage, and don't answer the door or phone calls. Lock teh doors !... don't be bothered by pets or neighbours, .. just do the whole chemistry task start to finish, understranding how dmt is tortured by a pH of 11 or higher, and how lye DOES get into naphtha over time, especially warm naphtha. Dmt runs for safety in the clear naphtha..!.. etc etc ... This Lye-stage is a real source of impurities, I know from experience ... dragged behind the Hyperspace bus and alll ... I preach about this from experience... poor newb's !