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4-HO/4-PO/4-AcO Tryptamine discussion

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JesusGreen

JesusGreen

Rising Star
Well since the 4-substituted tryptamines don't get a lot of attention as individuals in this forum I thought I'd start up a thread in which people could share their knowledge and experiences with them. After all, they are all very similar in action, but with some substantial differences of their own, making each of them unique.

For those who don't know, Psilocybin is 4-PO-DMT (Phosphate ester of Psilocin), and Psilocin is 4-HO-DMT. One of the more common 4-substituted tryptamine RCs is 4-AcO-DMT (Acetate ester of Psilocin), and like Psilocybin it is suspected to be broken down in the same way to Psilocin in the body. Some people dispute this as they find the experience quite different from mushrooms, however I suspect this is due to Baeocystin, or 4-PO-NMT, another active alkaloid present in mushrooms that is quite powerful in it's own right - but often forgotten as after all, the mushrooms are named "Psilocybe" or "Psilocybin" mushrooms.

I personally have a fair bit of experience with oral 4-AcO-DMT and find it a wonderful compound, very friendly, very spiritual, very visual (at least at higher doses) - and with the right dosage ego loss seems impossible to miss. It has helped me achieved "enlightenment" or "nirvana" in the traditional Buddhist sense of the word, and it is very useful.

Psilocin - 4-HO-DMT
220px-Psilocin_Structural_Formulae_V.1.svg.png


Psilocybin - 4-PO-DMT
200px-Psilocybn.svg.png


Psilacetin - 4-AcO-DMT
140px-O-Acetylpsilocin_chemical_structure.png


Baeocystin - 4-PO-NMT
140px-Baeocystin.png


Metocin - 4-HO-MET
200px-4-HO-MET.svg.png


Miprocin - 4-HO-MiPT
140px-Miprocin.png


Iprocin - 4-HO-DiPT
217px-4-HO-DIPT.SVG.png


PS apologies for some of the images not looking right, these are straight from Wikipedia as some of these aren't too well known and images are hard to find.

So, does anyone else have much experience with 4-substituted tryptamines of any kind? I'm quite interested in 4-HO-MET, and may be giving it a try soon, from what I have heard it is much more visual than most of it's cousins, but with less of the mind-fuck and deep introspection of mushrooms/4-AcO-DMT.
 
wish i could discuss!!!! i don't have much experience with aco-dmt, though, but should be coming up on some soon.
i've eaten mushrooms dozens of times and have to admit i don't find them enjoyable in the least bit.
to me, mushrooms are chaotic, stupifying, and hard to control. i'm not sure which molecules contribute most to this phenomena.
that's why i was looking to aco-dmt as a sort of user-friendly mushroom analogue.
what are the effects of Baeocystin on it's own??? i thought it was only vaguely active?
thanks for posting this. are there any reports of the effects of isolated baeocystin?
 
I'm a big fan of mushrooms; they are my longest term ally. Not everyone's cup of tea I appreciate, but definitely mine...mushrooms can be VERY beautiful, deep and blissful and at times confrontational and psychotherapeutic.

For people who 'don't like mushrooms' have you sampled other species apart from the standard Psilocybe cubensis? This, in my opinion is one of the less good species (and I say this having had MANY amazing experiences with them). But after sampling Copelandia cyanescens and liberty caps, cubensis just seem a bit stupefying and muddy in comparison, and they can be more chaotic and emotionally unstable than these other species, which I find much more lucid and crystalline...there is definitely a profound difference in trip signature that isn't down to set and setting alone, as I have tried these 3 species on many different occasions. So it’s worth sampling other species before making up your mind.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure about the baeocystin theory and why that is responsible for the differences between 4-Aco-DMT and mushrooms. Baeocystin I think is an isomer of psilocybin and mushroom researcher John Allen has sampled pure baeocystin, and described it as being identical in effect to pure psilocybin. But I'm not really surprised that mushrooms and 4-Aco-DMT produce different trip signatures, 4-Aco-DMT is taken pure, while mushrooms are organisms containing the active alkaloids (psilocybin, baeocystin, psilocin) in every varying ratios, then you've got serotonin precursors like tryptophan which could modulate the experience, sugars, and literally hundreds of other chemical components which may have a very subtle effect, but this effect could become magnified before and during the psychedelic experience produced.

I think there is some theory behind the 4-Aco-DMT being converted into 4-Ho-DMT, but what is odd is how quickly it takes effect when taken both orally or by the IV route. While I'm sure some is converted to psilocin, I suspect it is able to pass the blood brain barrier without being altered by enzymes.

I would really, really love to sample some 4-Aco-DMT myself to make my own comparisons though! 😉
 
SWIM cannot easily tell the difference between 4-AcO-dmt and mushrooms, at least mushroom tea strained off the fungal mass. 4-AcO-dmt as well as psilocin can cross the blood brain barrier as is whereas psilocybin is too polar for this and needs to be dephosphorylated.
 
Hawaiian Copelanidias were by far the most amazing mushrooms i've ever had. Also by far the most visual. I have a friend who has recently acquired some 4-Aco-DMT, so i should be sampling some soon :)
 
To my knowledge, the psychoactivity of Baeocystin - 4-PO-NMT is likely, but still hypothetical. The greatest subjective proof of its activity is the difference between P.cubensis and mushrooms that have a higher baeocystin content like P.azurescens. I would love to see some studies someday on Baeocystin, but until then its activity and/or potentiation is merely conjecture...

JBArk
 
It is an interesting area and there is still much to find out regarding mushroom alkaloids. On the baeocystin front, I suspect that it is active, and contributes to the signature of the experience. While I'm not citing it as proof, Jonathon Ott also reported baeocystin to be active, with apparent entheogenic effects similar to the equivalent amount of psilocybin at 10mg. Liberty caps contain a high proportion of baeocystin, and for me at least, this species feels quite distinctly different from cubensis mushrooms which have much lower proportions relative to psilocybin/psilocin. But yes Hawaiian Copelandias are very special mushrooms indeed! 8)
 
Swim had the chance to sample 4-aco-dmt a few times. He started with 10,15,20mgs.

Swim can see the relation to mushrooms, but the effects are much different. At the 20mg range there was no mindfuck present, which for swim is a typical aspect of a mushroom trip, even at smallish doses. There was a tryptamine feeling in the body, and a warming of colors in the visual field. Swim had slight cev's when he tried to sleep, but no pattern oev's. This compound also made swim yawn a lot, which is another mushroom correlation. Swim is going to push the dose up next time to try and get things going. So far this compound feels like psilocybins gentle cousin.
 
Thanks to many positive Jesus Green's threads on O-Acetylpsilocin, I have a fascination growing in my life once more again.

When I hear 'Mindfuckless, visually rich kind of DMT, impossible to miss thought-less state of empty consciousness, forgiving, nausea-less, easy to dose and cheap psylocine analogue', desire grows into obsession in darkest corner of my mind. I'm in the phase, when I'm not going to stop before I got to experience this molecule. There is no slowing down, stop or step back, not anymore...:arrow:
My problem with shrooms at higher dose is me getting FEAR of possible poisoning, therefore at that point... I'm fucked. Just lack of trust to my (or others) identification skills, plus not a big fan of taking potent psychedelics on leap of faith can spoil experience:twisted:

Soon, hopefully soooooon...I will wonder out into the mother nature with eyes wide shut...
It is not really social lubricant, is it? I've read quite interesting report on Erowid, when two friends took it in New York Time Square(?!) and each publish report about experience without knowing that other one did the same. They got separated. One spent night in ER sure of death coming and other one looking for him (or maybe not:lol: ). Quite interesting insight into the matter and stuff

Thanks Jesus
Regards,
 
jbark said:
To my knowledge, the psychoactivity of Baeocystin - 4-PO-NMT is likely, but still hypothetical. The greatest subjective proof of its activity is the difference between P.cubensis and mushrooms that have a higher baeocystin content like P.azurescens. I would love to see some studies someday on Baeocystin, but until then its activity and/or potentiation is merely conjecture...

JBArk
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I bet that there are many other tryptamine-like compounds that haven't been thoroughly studied yet present in mushrooms, that affect the experience.

P.azurescens is very different in effects from most other shrooms. It is a far heavier ride, with more visual and auditory effects. Of all the shrooms it is most like vaporised DMT. It is much stranger than cubensis, cyanescens or any other type. Azurescens gives a less smooth and clean experience than cyanescens or semilanceata, but it's more multi-dimensional, more twisted and warped, more vibrating.

There's definately something else present in it than just psilocin or psilocybin and that other compound or mix of compounds is definately tryptamine-like, just like psilocin.
 
Bancopuma said:
For people who 'don't like mushrooms' have you sampled other species apart from the standard cubensis? This, in my opinion is one of the less good species (and I say this having had MANY amazing experiences with them). But after sampling Copelandia cyanescens and liberty caps, cubensis just seem a bit stupefying and muddy in comparison, and they can be more chaotic and emotionally unstable than these other species, which I find much more lucid and crystalline...there is definitely a profound difference in trip signature that isn't down to set and setting alone, as I have tried these 3 species on many different occasions. So it’s worth sampling other species before making up your mind.
Click to expand...
i sampled some mexicanas once but they were too weak to get anything out of it in the dosage i took.
so no, i've never tried anything but cubensis.
but you've pinned exactly what i don't like about cubensis in comparison to other psychedelics, "stupefying, muddy, chaotic, emotionally unstable."
that about sums it up.
comparing this to the dazzling radiancy and more controllable nature of Phenethylamines or even Acid, i left mushies behind a while ago.
last year though, i tried .6 grams (i have very low tolerance) of cubensis just to see what would happen.
i just ended up feeling stupid and dull...and with lights out could feel "shadow creatures" swirling around me leaving me quite fearful and uncertain.
glad the dose was low, but it just reminded me of why i don't take them anymore.
if i find another species (they never really come around here!) i'll give 'em a try for you Bancupuma!!
 
its fairly hard to extract these compounds without destroying them no? From what I've read they are very fragile.

speculation: other moles that make the shroom experience more complex are accidentally destroyed in scientific studies leaving scientists clueless.
 
jbark said:
To my knowledge, the psychoactivity of Baeocystin - 4-PO-NMT is likely, but still hypothetical. The greatest subjective proof of its activity is the difference between P.cubensis and mushrooms that have a higher baeocystin content like P.azurescens. I would love to see some studies someday on Baeocystin, but until then its activity and/or potentiation is merely conjecture...

JBArk
Click to expand...
Gartz writes in his book 'Magic Mushrooms Around the World' that baeocystin have been found to be entheogenic and about as potent as psilocybin. The pharmacology of norbaeocystin is, however, not known.

I recently acquired some 4-AcO-DMT, really looking forward to try that! :)
 
I've felt the same as dragon when it comes to mushrooms. I've grown large amounts and experienced them many times. I wouldn't leave them behind but they are not among my favorites. I've been planning on growing panaeolus cyanescens when I get to the bottom of my bag o' shrooms. I have a feeling there will be quite a difference. I've always had more of an interest in the exotics rather than cubes. I think we need more people working with them. BTW I remember reading at least one of those 4-aco-dmt/time square trip reports zubidlo.
 
i was fascinated with the subtle but intense closed eye hallucinations from 4 HO mipt. although it is an rc, i would try it again if i ran into it.

the aco dmt sounds super.
 
SWIM will hopefully be acquiring an amount of 4-AcO-DiPT and 4-AcO-DMT :d

Even though 4-AcO-DMT is the gentle, anxiety free version of its more natural relative... SWIM is very interested in trying out 4-AcO-DiPT which has been said to be a "pink and fuzzy" tryptamine. Hopefully SWIM can acquire them soon to report back 😉
 
jbark said:
To my knowledge, the psychoactivity of Baeocystin - 4-PO-NMT is likely, but still hypothetical. The greatest subjective proof of its activity is the difference between P.cubensis and mushrooms that have a higher baeocystin content like P.azurescens. I would love to see some studies someday on Baeocystin, but until then its activity and/or potentiation is merely conjecture...

JBArk
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm very much interested in finding out more about Baeocystin, it would be great if someone were to isolate it and try it on it's own.

By the way, regarding 4-AcO-DMT as being anxiety free or a gentler version of mushrooms, I would just like to warn anyone who wants to try it that this is very much true at lower doses (20-35mg), but once you push the doses up it can get very unpleasant. My last 4 or 5 trips were quite emotional, sad, and unpleasant throughout most of the trip - but I still continue to use it because I find at these high doses it is VERY therapeutic, it basically says "Look, here are all the problems in your life" for several hours, then on the comedown it tells you how to fix them and you're just left in bliss and happiness realising that the answers to your problems are easier to fix than you might have thought. I do like how 4-AcO-DMT seems to care about the user, for example, I was overdoing 2C-E a little recently, and every time was great fun, there was no desire to stop - but after that I tripped on some 4-AcO-DMT, and instead of experiencing the usual bliss associated with it, it warned me that I was overdoing things, pointed out some health problems that I needed to address, etc. Very useful.

It seems to have a steep dose/response curve, in that at say a 15-20mg dose, you can often feel very very underwhelmed, with little/no visuals, and classic "stoned" thought patterns at best. However push it up to 30mg and suddenly you're seeing eyes everywhere, the CEVs look life-like and real, the mindfuck is overwhelming, etc.

It is not really social lubricant, is it?
Click to expand...

4-AcO-DMT makes me want to lay in bed alone. I imagine it would be fun tripping with someone you love, but I think tripping with someone who's just a friend, or someone you don't know too well would be counter-productive. At lower doses I tend to listen to music and enjoy the CEVs for the duration of the trip, at higher doses I lay in silence, and use it as a "healing session" to solve life problems :)
 
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