5-MeO-DMT - Hype or Hyperbole?

[Panpsychic]

I have a decent amount of experience with 5-MeO-DMT with something like 100+ trips. I'd say the hype is certainly deserved, but it depends on what you're trying to get out of it.

So of these 100+ trips, were they a mix of low and high doses, and did you always have a sitter? What about ever having any bad physiological side effects with heart rate and breathing which are my only real concerns with this?

If you're an aspiring meditation practitioner and you're hoping to experience an extremely powerful state of samadhi as a reference point, then it fits the bill 100%. If the goal is a more loose and recreational exploration of consciousness, I'd be less inclined to nudge people in the direction of its use. It can be less fun and more serious than other psychedelics, and it can very easily and reliably plunge you into the unconscious/superconscious depths of yourself where your individuality ceases. But if that's kind of your target in life, then I don't know of any better tool to get a preview of it.

Was there any development of deepening of the experience with repeated use? It does sound a lot like this and some of 5-MeO-DMT the retreat centres such as those run by Joel Brierre are basically using it as a means to access this, and even doing low dose retreats combined with meditation to try to stabilize the state.

Bridges of Consciousness

At Tandava’s Bridging Consciousness retreats it’s our goal to entrain you with established meditation and yogic pathways, assisted by low-dose 5-MeO-DMT, and to anchor the ongoing awareness of your own Divine nature.

www.tandavaretreats.com

"At Tandava’s Bridging Consciousness retreats it’s our goal to entrain you with established meditation and yogic pathways, assisted by low-dose 5-MeO-DMT, and to anchor the ongoing awareness of your own Divine nature.

From the beautiful Tandava retreat center we assist participants to realize and anchor the samadhi state of consciousness, and teach psychonauts who may have experienced externally triggered samadhi states how to use meditation, breathwork and yoga to keep that space open and available.

We utilize the sacrament of 5-MeO-DMT simply to stabilize the pathways that are being taught and deepened. On our 6-day program you will learn skills and routines to keep that pathway open endogenously–which is our ultimate goal."


I wouldn't spend that kind of money to do it in a retreat centre but its interesting they adopt this framework.

I see a few mentions in the thread regarding the potential after-effects. I can confirm that 5-MeO-DMT definitely has this characteristic. Individual episodes of the after-effects are typically called "reactivations" in the psychedelic community, but I've found them to more likely actually be what's called "kundalini syndrome" in the meditation community. It's a somewhat common experience for mediators who become too skilled too quickly, sink into deep states, and then find themselves with bizarre physical and mental symptoms that can last for days, weeks, or even years. The theory for the true cause of these symptoms could be considered controversial, but if you believe in the mystical traditions' explanation, it has to do with kundalini energy flooding your unprepared and atrophied energetic system and creating a kind of overload effect. Certain other psychedelics have a propensity towards this as well, such as LSD, which is where I believe the term "LSD flashbacks" comes from. 5-MeO-DMT seems much more likely to cause it though, even at low and moderate dosages. At least in my case, I adapted and stopped getting the after-effects after something like 30 trips.

This is certainly extremely interesting and would fit what you had described above, if it is a direct access to some very deep type of samadhi state or even the liberated mind of Enlightenment.
Stan Grof had written about this characteristic of LSD as having a strong parallel to Kundalini Yoga and opening of the chakra energy centers, often spontaneously which may be associated with LSD reactivations.

James Oroc also I believe speculated that DMT opened the 6th Anja Third Eye Chakra while 5-MeO-DMT opened the 7th Crown Chakra, although I wouldn't necessarily put 5-Meo above DMT in such a hierarchical way especially when combined with Harmalas, but I havent done it so cant really comment on this. If reactivations are understood from this framework then it certainly gives a more structured framework to integrating and working them which would be very helpful but who can say for sure whats going on at this meta-cosmic level of reality?

 

[Here&Now]

So of these 100+ trips, were they a mix of low and high doses, and did you always have a sitter? What about ever having any bad physiological side effects with heart rate and breathing which are my only real concerns with this?

It was a mix of low, medium, and high doses with a pretty strong trend towards medium/high. The ROAs were subcutaneous injection and 3-hour stretches of vaping using one of those e-juice pod-style vapes. I never did have a sitter. I don't know if I'd recommend the same for others, but in my case, I made the choice to go it alone.

Near the beginning of my 5-MeO-DMT use, I had some very serious physiological effects. More specifically, with the framework I use to think about it, I had noticeable kundalini syndrome after every use. It's a wild experience, because you're being forcefully pulled into mystical states of intense presence for days after the 5-MeO-DMT. On its own, that sounds kind of cool, but the problem is that the state is being induced by an energetic system that's been overloaded. It'd be somewhat comparable to going way overboard with weight lifting and burning out your nervous system.

Depending on how bad the kundalini syndrome gets, along with this heightened state, you'll experience fight-or-flight symptoms that make it nearly impossible to eat or sleep, or even to obtain any relaxation and peace whatsoever. In one particularly strong bout of it, my resting heart rate was stuck at 140 bpm for 6 days straight. I could feel intermittent energetic bursts shooting through my limbs and torso. The constant feeling of anxiety and doom that were produced is perhaps the worst I've ever had. To call it uncomfortable would be an understatement.

It's important to note though, much of the more intense symptoms can be avoided by simply allowing the minor ones to completely dissipate before having the next session. It has a cumulative effect, and individual trips should be spaced at least one week apart, and ideally two weeks. In my enthusiasm and naivety, I rushed into it without due caution at the beginning. Like I mentioned before though, my system appears to have adapted and this is no longer an issue or concern. I still practice restraint, because that was a worthwhile lesson.

For anyone reading, I acknowledge that a lot of what I'm claiming above isn't yet scientifically verified. Kundalini, along with the subtle energetic system as whole, isn't recognized as a reality. It's just my opinion based on personal experience as well as past and current meditation teachings, so take it how you will.

Was there any development of deepening of the experience with repeated use? It does sound a lot like this and some of 5-MeO-DMT the retreat centres such as those run by Joel Brierre are basically using it as a means to access this, and even doing low dose retreats combined with meditation to try to stabilize the state.

Yes, 100%. It significantly changed and deepened as I adapted and learned how to navigate the terrain. Even a single isolated experience with 5-MeO-DMT has the ability to make certain lasting changes in you, but using it repeatedly and with the right intentions and efforts can noticeably alter your sober perception in general. The intuitive comprehension of mystical oneness leaks into everyday life, giving experiential flashes of recognition that you're in fact everything that's being observed by awareness. You can also suddenly perceive the subtle energetic aliveness of your body. If anyone has ever felt the extreme bliss that can come from a strong psychedelic trip (which I'm sure many here have felt), this would be like a continuous subdued version of it.

This is certainly extremely interesting and would fit what you had described above, if it is a direct access to some very deep type of samadhi state or even the liberated mind of Enlightenment.
Stan Grof had written about this characteristic of LSD as having a strong parallel to Kundalini Yoga and opening of the chakra energy centers, often spontaneously which may be associated with LSD reactivations.

James Oroc also I believe speculated that DMT opened the 6th Anja Third Eye Chakra while 5-MeO-DMT opened the 7th Crown Chakra, although I wouldn't necessarily put 5-Meo above DMT in such a hierarchical way especially when combined with Harmalas, but I havent done it so cant really comment on this. If reactivations are understood from this framework then it certainly gives a more structured framework to integrating and working them which would be very helpful but who can say for sure whats going on at this meta-cosmic level of reality?

I'm a huge lover of DMT and harmalas as well. I have a fair amount of experience with pharmahuasca, among other ROAs. There's an incredible amount of value to its use, and it's essentially a distinct realm of exploration compared to 5-MeO-DMT. They're very different experiences, and it doesn't appear one of them could replace the other in terms of the benefits provided. Similar to what James Oroc claims, they could be split into subconscious (DMT) and unconscious (5-MeO-DMT) when describing portions of the human mind where the effects and access provided are prominent. Regardless of how zealous I am about 5-MeO-DMT, DMT is still firmly on the menu.

 

[Here&Now]

So of these 100+ trips, were they a mix of low and high doses, and did you always have a sitter? What about ever having any bad physiological side effects with heart rate and breathing which are my only real concerns with this?

I just realized I didn't fully answer this. Yes, 5-MeO-DMT use can cause an increased heart rate and a decreased respiration. Neither of these felt like they got into the area of being dangerous for me, but I could see that being a potential concern. I'd definitely recommend starting at a low dose and working your way up as you feel comfortable.

 

[Here&Now]

@Panpsychic by the way, if your research and interest have gotten you to the point where you're learning about Joel Brierre's retreat and his adjacent partys' offerings for 5-MeO-DMT meditation, then it sounds like you may be heading down a similar path as myself. I can confirm that you should be able to do it on your own, but you really need to keep caution in the forefront of your mind. High doses approaching or at breakthrough are powerful beyond what you'd expect, and they reveal some self-authenticating truths about reality that can be tough to grapple with. I'd recommend taking it slow and easy with this one.

 

[stinkyfish]

Hi,

I have extensive experience with both. And yes it is not hyperbole at all. A full dose of 5-MeO-DMT is too powerful.

DMT is a nice visual roller coaster. 5-MeO-DMT is experiencing the cosmic big bang.

Regards,
famine

It is the best cosmic ride of all of them!!!!!!! 5 methoxy dimethyltryptamine is way better than dmt. Dmt is for the masses 5 meo dmt is for the ones who want the true ride.

 

[The Traveler]

It is the best cosmic ride of all of them!!!!!!! 5 methoxy dimethyltryptamine is way better than dmt. Dmt is for the masses 5 meo dmt is for the ones who want the true ride.

As to your personal opinion.

Quick example: I have ridden the 5-MeO-DMT train to the very far deep end of it, many times.

For me it did not give that deeper spiritual journey that some others seems to celebrate that much. For me it was very special, though in the end every deep journey was pretty much the same.

DMT however, gives me a different ride about every time. I like different new ways/ideas/vistas, so for me DMT is the ultimate one, not 5-MeO-DMT. All IMHO of course.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Voidmatrix]

I really enjoy and appreciate the discussion talking specifically and solely about 5-MEO-DMT. In that manner, this thread is very informative.

I still think that comparing NN-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT seems like comparing apples to oranges, which I tried to allude to earlier.

We should also keep in mind the diversity and variability of each individual. To each their own...

One love

 

[neurobloom]

In my humble experience combining the two is better than either alone. I favour 5-meo-dmt higher ratio at around 70%. The nn-dmt tzkes away some of the roughness of 5-meo-dmt

 

[dithyramb]

The other way round, mostly DMT with a touch of 5 smooths out the DMT, ime. Edges, corners, pixels become seamless. And the less chaotic, more harmony driven DMT becomes more intelligible.

 

[famine]

I love to do DMT first then a full dose of 5meo.

 

[stinkyfish]

@Panpsychic by the way, if your research and interest have gotten you to the point where you're learning about Joel Brierre's retreat and his adjacent partys' offerings for 5-MeO-DMT meditation, then it sounds like you may be heading down a similar path as myself. I can confirm that you should be able to do it on your own, but you really need to keep caution in the forefront of your mind. High doses approaching or at breakthrough are powerful beyond what you'd expect, and they reveal some self-authenticating truths about reality that can be tough to grapple with. I'd recommend taking it slow and easy with this one.

For me always alone is best. Try it alone in the forest next time.

 

[stinkyfish]

As to your personal opinion.

Quick example: I have ridden the 5-MeO-DMT train to the very far deep end of it, many times.

For me it did not give that deeper spiritual journey that some others seems to celebrate that much. For me it was very special, though in the end every deep journey was pretty much the same.

DMT however, gives me a different ride about every time. I like different new ways/ideas/vistas, so for me DMT is the ultimate one, not 5-MeO-DMT. All IMHO of course.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Wow. It take me to 4 sentient beings like the sun and they hug me with their energy and have shown me everything, from the start of time till now. It let's me see into other and heal like never before.

 

[neurobloom]

The other way round, mostly DMT with a touch of 5 smooths out the DMT, ime. Edges, corners, pixels become seamless. And the less chaotic, more harmony driven DMT becomes more intelligible.

In my humble experience combining the two is better than either alone. I favour 5-meo-dmt higher ratio at around 70%. The nn-dmt takes away some of the roughness of 5-meo-dmt

I smoked this combination im refering to on a mountain an hour after a weed joint with a view of an archaeological landscape. The archaic ruins became a lively advanced civilisation from the past in symbiosis with nature.

Closed my eyes and laid back on the grass and saw holistic geometrical forms interacting with each other right on top of my head with flashy dancing lights and mathematical symbols like Pi .... Images like the Peruvian man drawing and so much more... Nothing that you would expect from 5-meo-dmt even though it made over 70% of the extract. It felt like it's a complete different substance than either tryptamines. For an awe inducing experience and pleasantness wise it's my favourite

For serious work and for most beneficial impact in every life my most highly regarded experience was an accidental high dose 5-meo-dmt. I spent around three weeks experiencing beautiful positive flashbacks reminiscent of the actual peak effect like secondary seismic waves reminding me every time what i have seen and felt which helped me with integration. My most memorable part of the experience was falling into the cosmos disintegrating to shreds till theres nothing left to hold on to.. lost all hope to survive this ordeal and accepted my fate... that's when i felt god reached out and picked me up the moment i died ...was in his presence for a while enjoying absolute peace as being part of who he is and being existence itself and nothing all at the same time.. so much white light the moment i met him. Pure infinite white energy...soul orgasming white light and i start to inhale deeply and very satisfyingly..

He lays my life in front of me and explains it how it actually is just like the absolute truth that he is (existence itself) every realization brings me to a emotional/physical release and i take a biiiiig breath and exhale in comfort and warmth...filling my lungs with that moment ...i keep doing this for a while gradually coming back to my body...then i wake up looking around me checking if everything's alright but barely can lift my head... thrown bit back in the pillow in awe of what i just saw.. laughing smiling.. grateful and content

Go outside sit in a chair light a cigarette and watch the stars still laughing to myself in disbelief of how magnificent this was ...a night for ever engraved in my mind and heart for as long as i live. Just one accidental heavy dose that put all prior experiences to shame.. I don't even want to do it at that high a doze ever again...i want that last revelation to be my souvenir...

 

[neurobloom]

For me always alone is best. Try it alone in the forest next time.

Tripping while being watched by someone can feel very uncomfortable for me. It's a great distraction.
Mescaline is an exception. Given 5-meo-dmt potency the risk is always there however. Many things can go wrong.

 

[Here&Now]

That's interesting you guys enjoy a 5-MeO-DMT and DMT mix. I wanted to like it so much, because the concept of two major endogenous psychedelics in varying ratios seemed like it had the potential to produce some kind of special rarefied state. For whatever reason though, I just couldn't get it to produce an experience that felt useful. It was as if I was getting the worst aspects of both instead of the best aspects.

Since I use volumetric dosing inherent to injecting from vials, I was able to create two separate vials at a precise 4:1 and 20:1 mix of DMT:5-MeO-DMT. If you guys enjoyed it, maybe it's worth considering a different ratio. I'm open to ideas!

 

[Panpsychic]

Depending on how bad the kundalini syndrome gets, along with this heightened state, you'll experience fight-or-flight symptoms that make it nearly impossible to eat or sleep, or even to obtain any relaxation and peace whatsoever. In one particularly strong bout of it, my resting heart rate was stuck at 140 bpm for 6 days straight. I could feel intermittent energetic bursts shooting through my limbs and torso. The constant feeling of anxiety and doom that were produced is perhaps the worst I've ever had. To call it uncomfortable would be an understatement.

That is crazy, and underlines the importance and significance of having a clear system to understand what is happening not just metaphysically but also physiologically. I am pretty sure that for 95% of people, without such a framework they would have interpreted this as nothing short of a medical emergency, triggering panic and most likely attempts to suppress the symptoms through some means, probabaly medical.
Through understanding what was happening on a bio-energetic level you were able to tolerate it without freaking out, and allow the process to unfold and do what it needed to do your system. As I have stated before, I believe that the physiological changes and purification of negative habits and traits that can occur with psychedelics, especially ones such as these, has less to do with helping 'you' and more to do with making you into a capable and useful vehicle for expressing the states of purity and higher consciousness that the cosmos/Depth is trying to express.

For anyone reading, I acknowledge that a lot of what I'm claiming above isn't yet scientifically verified. Kundalini, along with the subtle energetic system as whole, isn't recognized as a reality. It's just my opinion based on personal experience as well as past and current meditation teachings, so take it how you will.

Depending on how you look at it, this is the science with regards understanding and working with these tools and the states of consciousness that can be accessed.

Yes, 100%. It significantly changed and deepened as I adapted and learned how to navigate the terrain. Even a single isolated experience with 5-MeO-DMT has the ability to make certain lasting changes in you, but using it repeatedly and with the right intentions and efforts can noticeably alter your sober perception in general. The intuitive comprehension of mystical oneness leaks into everyday life, giving experiential flashes of recognition that you're in fact everything that's being observed by awareness. You can also suddenly perceive the subtle energetic aliveness of your body. If anyone has ever felt the extreme bliss that can come from a strong psychedelic trip (which I'm sure many here have felt), this would be like a continuous subdued version of it.

This fits with the above point and one that has come to light more in recent years; there is work to be done on oneself and changes made both during and in between experiences. If this work is not done, one will tend to plateau and just experience the same things or same broad level of experience each time. If on the other hand one works on oneself as guided by the experience and makes changes in their lives/meditation, the experience will tend to deepen gradually and go farther when you do it. Its a natural and synergistic unfolding.

I'm a huge lover of DMT and harmalas as well. I have a fair amount of experience with pharmahuasca, among other ROAs. There's an incredible amount of value to its use, and it's essentially a distinct realm of exploration compared to 5-MeO-DMT. They're very different experiences, and it doesn't appear one of them could replace the other in terms of the benefits provided. Similar to what James Oroc claims, they could be split into subconscious (DMT) and unconscious (5-MeO-DMT) when describing portions of the human mind where the effects and access provided are prominent. Regardless of how zealous I am about 5-MeO-DMT, DMT is still firmly on the menu.

Yes, I mean even if we go loosely with Orocs thoughts on this, both terrains would need be activated, explored and worked through for most benefit.

@Panpsychic by the way, if your research and interest have gotten you to the point where you're learning about Joel Brierre's retreat and his adjacent partys' offerings for 5-MeO-DMT meditation, then it sounds like you may be heading down a similar path as myself. I can confirm that you should be able to do it on your own, but you really need to keep caution in the forefront of your mind. High doses approaching or at breakthrough are powerful beyond what you'd expect, and they reveal some self-authenticating truths about reality that can be tough to grapple with. I'd recommend taking it slow and easy with this one.

I want to thank you for the info you have shared of your experiences, it is immensely helpful. Even this part, as I have always been a solo tripper and am most comfortable and at peace doing it like this but that is generally advised as a no-no with 5-MeO-DMT but clearly that does not have to be the case if one does it gradually and responsibly. I think some basic precautions would be advised like doing it on an empty stomache but otherwise yes, it seems something that could be worth exploring at some point.

I do incline to the meditative path as people like Joel Brierre and yourself have been working with it and it seems to be one of or perhaps even the best tools for helping access and stabilize some of these profound states.

 

[Here&Now]

@Panpsychic

Awesome, I'm so glad you got some useful tidbits out of it. I'm always available and happy to chat if you need any future advice or just someone to bounce ideas off of. Good luck if you start moving in the direction of using 5-MeO-DMT specifically as a meditation aid. It's a wild path indeed, and it can accelerate progress so quickly, I wouldn't be surprised if it's utilized on a large scale (hopefully a safe protocol for the masses is devised) as humanity starts discovering what we're really all capable of.

Here's another meditation teacher who runs a retreat in Canada and currently utilizes it. Perhaps as time goes on, some kind of universal technique will be perfected.

Just one quick correction, and a tip that could come in handy. You're correct in saying that I understood the symptoms I was experiencing were a type of natural energetic purification process, and I chose to face them head on without applying any resistance since that'd provide ideal results. I have to admit though, when I went way overboard and induced that 6-day event, I did resort to anything I could to relieve the panic and torture. It was much more intense than I'm probably able to express here. As a last resort for extreme cases, anything that works on the GABA system (certain supplements, benzos, alcohol) seems to very effectively calm down kundalini syndrome symptoms that have gone out of control. At least during the duration of the drug, after which it returns in full force. Obviously stuff like that should be avoided if possible, and ideally you wouldn't push the 5-MeO-DMT frequency and dose so hard as to get yourself into that situation, but those types of chemicals can really come in handy if it feels like you're on the verge of death and need some relief to be able to ride it out a bit longer.

Here's another great resource for tips towards managing symptoms from The Conclave. If you're lucky, perhaps you'll be one of those whose system doesn't need extra adaptation to handle the extreme energetic states.

 

[stinkyfish]

Have never felt anything after except being super angry that had to come back to this disgusting place. Would rather stay there anyway.

 

[dithyramb]

That's interesting you guys enjoy a 5-MeO-DMT and DMT mix. I wanted to like it so much, because the concept of two major endogenous psychedelics in varying ratios seemed like it had the potential to produce some kind of special rarefied state. For whatever reason though, I just couldn't get it to produce an experience that felt useful. It was as if I was getting the worst aspects of both instead of the best aspects.

Since I use volumetric dosing inherent to injecting from vials, I was able to create two separate vials at a precise 4:1 and 20:1 mix of DMT:5-MeO-DMT. If you guys enjoyed it, maybe it's worth considering a different ratio. I'm open to ideas!

It could be about mixing pure alkaloids. There is something about alkaloids in their natural state and soup in certain plants that make them more loving and medicinal. Ask Sidhi how he does it. In my case, I drink an Ayahuasca analogue (plain decoctions of rue and phragmites) with a plant that naturally has the two alkaloids, alongside with countless other ingredients.

Also, for any mixture to work harmoniously/constructively, the elements need to be "married" - physically and energetically homogenized. IME otherwise like you said their worse aspects take over, and the experience seems like a fight between them rather than a cooperation.

 

[Here&Now]

It could be about mixing pure alkaloids. There is something about alkaloids in their natural state and soup in certain plants that make them more loving and medicinal. Ask Sidhi how he does it. In my case, I drink an Ayahuasca analogue (plain decoctions of rue and phragmites) with a plant that naturally has the two alkaloids, alongside with countless other ingredients.

Also, for any mixture to work harmoniously/constructively, the elements need to be "married" - physically and energetically homogenized. IME otherwise like you said their worse aspects take over, and the experience seems like a fight between them rather than a cooperation.

Thanks, that could very well be the case. My experience is unfortunately limited to the isolated alkaloids, so I couldn't personally say. But I've heard similar to what you're claiming so many times, I have to believe there's some real truth to it.