5-MeO-DMT - Hype or Hyperbole?

[CosmicRiver]

Im always confused why people use “NN” to distinguish DMT from 5 meo DMT. 5 meo also contains NN.. it is 5 methoxy-NN-dimethyltryptamine. NN-DMT is “normal” DMT.. it’s not some variant of DMT. It’s a distinction that makes no sense to me S it implies 5 meo does not contain NN in its structure..

Yes acacian you are right, but I think it's just a common habit to better distinguish them in common writing even if in technical terms it doesn't make any difference.
The N,N in 5-MeO-DMT still refers to the position of the methyl groups in the DMT core structure, so I guess it gets omitted more frequently in 5-MeO-DMT since it's already implied in the DMT and the name would get unnecessarily long. While in the case of DMT the N,N position often gets specified even in common speech/writing.

 

[Panpsychic]

5-MeO-DMT is very special among psychedelics in the way it reliably produces a state similar to nirvikalpa samadhi when used in large enough doses. If you ever give it a try, you'll quickly see what I mean. I believe it's the approaching of this state itself that's responsible for the triggering of kundalini. This has been known to be the case whether a person reaches the state while sober via meditation or with the assistance of 5-MeO-DMT. You'll know it's happening, because you'll feel powerful energetic sensations in your body and going up your spine, and your state of consciousness will alter in unbelievably profound ways. It's anything but subtle when it actually occurs. Like I mentioned in previous posts, this can have unfortunate side effects for somebody whose energetic system isn't prepared.

It does indeed sound a lot like this. On a side note, spiritual practitioners of these systems are frequently against psychedelics and often somewhat dogmatic about this, usually without having taken it themselves. However this doesn't matter and is not surprising. One cannot deny the experience, and one cannot say there is no means of direct access to these states.

The distinction between psychedelics and the meditative path can be seen as one of Top Down vs Bottom Up development

Meditation and the path of practice is the bottom up way - you purify your ethical conduct, rid yourself of negative habits and traits and gradually practice to stabilize the mind with focussed meditation until the higher Samadhi state is achieved, at which point top down transformation can occur more also as one connects with the higher consciousness.
Microdosing combined with regular daily practice would be a means of using psychedelics in a more bottom up way also.

Psychedelic peak experiences - and it would appear in particular 5-MeO-DMT - are the top down path; you access that higher state of mind first, and then it activates changes in the system wherebye gradually one brings the positive benefits and insights accessed in that state into ones life with conscious effort and perhaps assisted by reactivations, cleansing ones negative energetic knots and negative psychological traits, improving ethical conduct and bringing the mind to presence more easily.

Of course doing both paths together would be of most benefit and accelerate the process.

 

[acacian]

Yeah @CosmicRiver .. but a lot of people seem under the impression that the NN part is a point of difference between the two compounds - and don't realise NN-DMT is at the core of 5 meo.. it just seems pointless as a distinguishing factor to me..

.... carry on

 

[Jan e Kharabat]

Most people don't know much about chemistry and that's ok. As long as we know what we're talking about (which we do... Otherwise, we would simply be confused instead of pointing out the wrong terminology), and as long as the terminologies aren't misleading enough to cause real harm, it's ok to say 5meo or nn or whatever. Even "deems" and "dmitry" and "the meow", "the methoxy one" and "the toad stuff" are ok, as long as we know they refer to. This whole discussion about the ultra correct terminology is quite irrelevant to the OP and the following discussion.

 

[Here&Now]

@Panpsychic I'm in pretty much full agreement with your analysis, and I especially agree that a combo of dedicated meditation practice as well as focused psychedelic use is extraordinary.

It reminds me of this video with Ken Wilber. He mentions how psychedelics can easily bring someone into the realm of the subtle, but his thoughts at the time seemed to be that they won't necessarily and reliably introduce you to the causal. Obviously if he had been more aware of 5-MeO-DMT, his opinion may have been different, as the causal is the prominent domain that's revealed by its use. Though even without that knowledge, he still leaned towards psychedelics being a powerful tool for meditation when used correctly.

 

[aurevoir]

It does indeed sound a lot like this. On a side note, spiritual practitioners of these systems are frequently against psychedelics and often somewhat dogmatic about this, usually without having taken it themselves. However this doesn't matter and is not surprising. One cannot deny the experience, and one cannot say there is no means of direct access to these states.

The distinction between psychedelics and the meditative path can be seen as one of Top Down vs Bottom Up development

Meditation and the path of practice is the bottom up way - you purify your ethical conduct, rid yourself of negative habits and traits and gradually practice to stabilize the mind with focussed meditation until the higher Samadhi state is achieved, at which point top down transformation can occur more also as one connects with the higher consciousness.
Microdosing combined with regular daily practice would be a means of using psychedelics in a more bottom up way also.

Psychedelic peak experiences - and it would appear in particular 5-MeO-DMT - are the top down path; you access that higher state of mind first, and then it activates changes in the system wherebye gradually one brings the positive benefits and insights accessed in that state into ones life with conscious effort and perhaps assisted by reactivations, cleansing ones negative energetic knots and negative psychological traits, improving ethical conduct and bringing the mind to presence more easily.

Of course doing both paths together would be of most benefit and accelerate the process.

You have described the practice of Yoga so very well. Ethical conduct is the first and a huge pillar in the path of Kundalini Yoga referred to as 'yamas' and 'niyamas'.
My Kundalini has been active for quite some time and I'm yet to conclude on the the topic of psychedelics.
Though the energy and euphoria of LSD can be achieved via K Yoga, the cognitive abilites and it's 'techno' feeling sets is apart.
Mushrooms, sort of, with it's emphasis on nature seems very close to the experiences of Kundalini - minus the body load. Because Kundalini is a feminine entity same as the muschrooms. Though you can feel the ecstatic experiences with the same intensity as a microdose of mushrooms, there seems to be some insane sort of familiarty with the K experiences as opposed to the alien nature of psychedelics. And even then I don't think I have touched at all with the true power of either.
Both LSD and DMT are inert drugs. But even on a microdose of mushrooms I treat it as a communion with the Mushroom entity.


@Here&Now made a great point that the system of Kundalini is not a accepted form of reality even in the places it originates. So when things start to get intense it can be a challenge. So I'm just going to put it out here, if anyone wishes to practice Kundalini Yoga - DO SO USING ONLY THE METHODS AS STATED IN THE ANCIENT SCRIPTURES. it is the only way to attain stability. I have seen and even tried a lot of fancy dancy methods of energy work in the current age and many of those even come with a tag of Kundalini. My advice is to stay away because though it may evoke energetic experiences inside you, they will land you in trouble.

Major point to be noted is Kundalini Yoga is a science and a PRACTICE. It's been a long time since I started this and it's still a learning experience.

Not everything is as simple as what goes on in the mind when it comes to this because of the presence of energy-body inside you and it gets insanely complicated because the energy-body or the Nadi system is connected and reacts to the everything that happens around you.

The reason psychedelics are not recommended is because they are a source of power which HAS to be earned via meditation on the truth - plain and simple as that. And also the power of psychedelics(they just say drugs and herbs but I take it to include psychedelics) according to Kundalini scriptures seem to be short-lived and do not match with the true power of Kundalini Yoga.
I believe It's always best to keep an open mind about psychedelics, especially mushrooms and DMT - seeing as to their leaning towards truth, justice and love.

 

[DoubleScorpio]

I am curious has anyone done any runic vibration meditation whilst using the 5 meo dmt and how did it look/feel?

 

[Panpsychic]

@Panpsychic I'm in pretty much full agreement with your analysis, and I especially agree that a combo of dedicated meditation practice as well as focused psychedelic use is extraordinary.

It reminds me of this video with Ken Wilber. He mentions how psychedelics can easily bring someone into the realm of the subtle, but his thoughts at the time seemed to be that they won't necessarily and reliably introduce you to the causal. Obviously if he had been more aware of 5-MeO-DMT, his opinion may have been different, as the causal is the prominent domain that's revealed by its use. Though even without that knowledge, he still leaned towards psychedelics being a powerful tool for meditation when used correctly.

Wilber has provided some very good frameworks, and what he does excel at is looking at a perennial perspective and seeing correspondences between different traditions as there is simply no single tradition that provides all the answers and a complete framework for this. I like this general map he made for the spectrum of consciousness.

Platforms of Psychedelic Experience - Maps of the Mind

Three categories to distinguish different states of consciousness that are accessed in psychedelic and holotropic breathwork sessions.

mapsofthemind.com

Chris Bache, author of "LSD and the Mind of the Universe" also developed on a similar framework in important ways I think, describing the successive layers and working through them and the changes both within and outside the experience that occur.

Here here he is questioned about the 5-MeO-DMT experiences which are frequently described as being the "Ultimate", the "non-dual pinnacle."
He says however that this is mistaken view.
Essentially there are gradations of each level or stage, graditions of Oneness, causal, degrees of infinity, and it depends on the work one does.

He talks of doing a lot of intense work which had eventually attained to what he calls 'The Diamond Luminosity', a level he says he can no longer access as he isnt engaged in that work anymore and which he considered to be the Ultimate and Clear Light - but then was struck by a cosmic light beam showing another order of consciousness far beyond this even that he may be working towards in a future existence, perhaps beyond the human level.

As you found, the 5-MeO-DMT 'pinnacle' actually deepens with work on oneself which he also found with LSD so it may be a never ending infinite progression.

Nibbana or the cessation of becoming, No-Mind, the Metacosmic Void, may in fact then just be the ending of all known limitations, and the entry point or beginning of the journey and gradations of progress of the Supermind or God-Mind once small matters like the finitute of temporal or bodily existence are no longer an issue.

 

[Here&Now]

@Panpsychic fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing. I wasn't aware of Chris Bache.

 

[Voidmatrix]

5-MeO what?

5-MeO-MiPT? 5-MeO-DiPT? So many possible 5-MeO substances.

AFAIK "5-MeO" indicates that a methoxy group is attached to the fifth carbon of the indole ring in the chemical structure of a molecule.

I know you probably mean 5-MeO-DMT, but please let's prevent this confusion in the future by stating the full name from this moment on. Especially since we also discuss other substances on this platform with a 5-MeO group.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

P.s. I have corrected the naming in this topic.

I haven't done 5-MEO-DMT yet, but this discussion makes me think about a lot of errors in thinking about this that I've observed.

Both NN-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT end in "DMT" and people over simplify their categorization in a comparative way by virtue of this: NN-DMT= The Spirit Molecule, then 5-MEO-DMT= God Molecule, as if they're really comparable in those ways. What they seem to be missing is there are many molecules that we can call DMT molecules, but they aren't highlighted (4-PO-DMT, 4-OH-DMT, etc).

I can imagine and forsee a lot of hype by virtue of this observation. I can't say my stance until I try it though.

One love

@acacian These quotes are from earlier in thread.

One love

 

[Vitez1]

I am curious has anyone done any runic vibration meditation whilst using the 5 meo dmt and how did it look/feel?

You may want to try this:

 

[Panpsychic]

Of various descriptive videos about 5-MEO I have seen, I thought this was a standout one.

He gives a quote which is interesting but an analogy I have heard alluded to before:

"If there were a psychedelic Christmas tree, mushrooms would be the adornments, LSD the presents, and 5-MEO-DMT is the star on top"

I would add if this analogy is true, then maybe DMT and Harmalas are the bread and wine when you go to church.

 

[Here&Now]

"If there were a psychedelic Christmas tree, mushrooms would be the adornments, LSD the presents, and 5-MEO-DMT is the star on top"

Very nice, pretty accurate in my experience. Have you had a chance to try it out since we last chatted?

 

[acacian]

I enjoy Dakota's descriptions of 5-meo-DMT a lot. Interesting that he found DMT to be so much more challenging than 5-meo..

 

[Panpsychic]

Very nice, pretty accurate in my experience. Have you had a chance to try it out since we last chatted?

I have a possibility, since availability is no issue currently but I haven't taken it. Its just the whole 'more like a near death experience than a psychedelic' and the as discussed physiological/kundalini activation processes that are making me not rush this as of yet.

Furthermore, I am struggling to reconcile what I mostly hear of people's experiences of smoking standard DMT, although I always do it with drinking harmalas. I hear people talking about entities and that it can be such a variable thing with DMT of what happens, yet thats not my experience at all. I seem to be locked into "contact with God Experiences" only with this combo which doesn't appear to be the norm although does happen for some at times. As my experiences are not much variable they just seems to be going deeper into this I need to figure what is trying to be shown to me through this.

This also makes me feel less a need for the 5-MeO-DMT at present since it essentially sounds like going further into that terrain and I am having almost overwhelming experiences of encounters with "God" as it is. I am sure after listening to enough videos and reading enough reports I will eventually dip into it though.

What about yourself, do you feel the pull for more work with it? You said the experience deepens as you work on yourself, its what I am finding with the Harmala- DMT right now as well.

 

[Here&Now]

Furthermore, I am struggling to reconcile what I mostly hear of people's experiences of smoking standard DMT, although I always do it with drinking harmalas. I hear people talking about entities and that it can be such a variable thing with DMT of what happens, yet thats not my experience at all. I seem to be locked into "contact with God Experiences" only with this combo which doesn't appear to be the norm although does happen for some at times. As my experiences are not much variable they just seems to be going deeper into this I need to figure what is trying to be shown to me through this.

That is really interesting. I've also used oral DMT and harmalas quite a bit in the past. But for me, it was always more revelatory at the subtle level of existence. It was similar to smoked experiences, where the presence of entities was felt and their profound lessons were received. There was the palpable sense that my consciousness was lining up with something akin to an afterlife realm. It was also pretty variable from experience to experience, in the sense that it could feel benevolent or malevolent (thankfully it was mostly the former).

It does seem like a rare thing that you're being ushered into a more non-dual experience with pharmahuasca. It could actually indicate a natural propensity for causal experiences, which would be a really nice attribute to work with. It makes me wonder what would happen if you were to try 5-MeO-DMT. Perhaps dipping your toe in with sub-breakthrough doses would be highly beneficial beyond the norm, as opposed to the more dangerous full breakthrough.

What about yourself, do you feel the pull for more work with it? You said the experience deepens as you work on yourself, its what I am finding with the Harmala- DMT right now as well.

I do feel the pull, but I'm currently slowing down my use and working on integrating a consistent sober meditation practice. I've found that I have a tendency to utilize the enlightening power of 5-MeO-DMT as a crutch, to the point where I'm creating an imbalance in my reliance on it to do all the work. My strategy now is to get to a certain threshold of conscious awareness, and then come back to 5-MeO-DMT with a renewed vigor. I have some high hopes that it'll be truly awesome.

I am sure after listening to enough videos and reading enough reports I will eventually dip into it though.

This guy is great for some deep-dive information, on both the scientific and spiritual aspects.

 

[Mechanism]

5 MeO seemed to unlock something in my brain as it made subsequent oral DMT experiences much more intense.

The first time I tried it I set the intention that I wanted to truely understand the concept of "nothing". I was thrown into an endless and eternal black void and the suggestion of limitless potential suffused my thoughts as I regained my senses. The idea that reality at its base level is nothing more than a blank canvas for our thoughts.

The second time I set the intention that I wanted to experience true love. My identity faded away as "I" was engulfed by a blindingly intense yellow white light. Then the very concept of "I" seemed to fall away as my sense of self was replaced by the perception of complete and total connection with the entirety of existence.

I tried oral DMT thrice more after these experiences. The first 2 times I was shot out of my body in the same way people describe the "rocket ship" effect that inhaled DMT seems to have but with a significantly longer duration. The third time I was given the option but my sense of self had reasserted itself enough to prevent it from happening.

 

[Panpsychic]

For the right person, [5-MeO-DMT] reliably triggers the phenomenon of kundalini, and that has transformational effects that last for weeks/months beyond your last trip. For the motivated practitioner, it opens up a very fertile window to make some real progress.

I have to say I am intrigued about this on a few levels.
Here is yet another report of a first time user spontaneously reporting Kundalini awakening.

Does this first of all endorse the Kundalini system itself pretty much with little doubt now? We have ancient texts and of course meditators claiming such, but having an independent reliable tool that is not directly associated with these systems or traditions but consistently triggers such, lends very strong support to the view that this is an intrinsic part of the human body-mind system.

Incidentally I still feel no rush to do it, partly because my Harmala- DMT experiences are very revelatory still and its seems this is what I am supposed to be working with at this time.

That said, I want to also ask from your experiences of the Nirvakalpa Samadhi state - which is seen as the ultimate or Pure Absolute.
I dont know to the extent you are familiar with the broader metaphysical questions around this, but have had any insights through the 5-MeO-DMT how the nondual state or merging with Godhead is liberating in a permanent sense or leading toward that?
I am coming from the point of view that recognizing we are all part of the One Universal Mind, is not in itself necessarily liberating from samsaric bonds of rebirth. Of course its true and couldn’t be any other way and is such for all being(s), yet that doesn't solve the isssue of suffering or the torments of the various forms of life, that they are simply connected to the whole.

The meditative traditions approach this question a certain way, how would you say 5-MeO-DMT experientially approaches or tends toward a permanent liberation that will be stable post the end of the physical body life-span or what insights have you been given into such a process i.e Unity with the Absolute, rather than falling back the realm of taking up duality in another body-mind?

 

[Here&Now]

Does this first of all endorse the Kundalini system itself pretty much with little doubt now? We have ancient texts and of course meditators claiming such, but having an independent reliable tool that is not directly associated with these systems or traditions but consistently triggers such, lends very strong support to the view that this is an intrinsic part of the human body-mind system.

If you ask me directly, I have no doubt whatsoever of its existence, since it's now been experienced many times and in crystal-clear clarity, even to a certain degree when no 5-MeO-DMT is involved. It's absolutely insane to think that there are transformative mechanisms of perception like this hidden in humanity, and only a relatively tiny slice of the population is even aware of it. I don't know what that means, and I don't know how we ended up in this situation. Though I should also mention that while I speak freely about it here on the forum, I'm much more reserved with my words in my everyday life and professional career. I'm grateful how I have a place here where I can discuss it with others who will get it.

That said, I want to also ask from your experiences of the Nirvakalpa Samadhi state - which is seen as the ultimate or Pure Absolute.
I dont know to the extent you are familiar with the broader metaphysical questions around this, but have had any insights through the 5-MeO-DMT how the nondual state or merging with Godhead is liberating in a permanent sense or leading toward that?
I am coming from the point of view that recognizing we are all part of the One Universal Mind, is not in itself necessarily liberating from samsaric bonds of rebirth. Of course its true and couldn’t be any other way and is such for all being(s), yet that doesn't solve the isssue of suffering or the torments of the various forms of life, that they are simply connected to the whole.

A lot of my practice involving 5-MeO-DMT has been at the level of sub-breakthrough, with a decent number of trips (30+) that pushed the dose right up to the breakthrough line, where whiteness becomes your perception, infinite/eternal consciousness becomes your domain, and the self-authenticating realization arises that you (all of us) are literally the one and only being in all of existence. You could say I've come as close as possible to passing through the gateless gate without actually taking the full plunge. Because even though my self is greatly diminished at that point, there are still a few small embers of the tiny me remaining. I imagine that when I finally cross that line, the existential revelation will become even more profoundly unfathomable.

So I guess to answer your question, I have seen some shit, but I definitely have more to see before I can speak with authority about Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Though even at the lesser degree that I've reached it, I know that the more you touch that state of consciousness, the more you're cleansed of your small sense of self. Along with Kundalini's help, it's like some kind of built-in purification system that prepares you energetically for a sustained expression of higher consciousness.

The meditative traditions approach this question a certain way, how would you say 5-MeO-DMT experientially approaches or tends toward a permanent liberation that will be stable post the end of the physical body life-span or what insights have you been given into such a process i.e Unity with the Absolute, rather than falling back the realm of taking up duality in another body-mind?

That part is still a huge mystery to me. All I currently know with certainty is that there is in fact a transformative process that can be performed by humans, and the implications for doing it during a lifetime have a massive effect on the conscious experience of that life. But I don't know with certainty what that would mean for someone's afterlife, or even what the afterlife might look like. If I were to guess, I'd say that the full extinguishing of your individual self during life probably guarantees reabsorption into the whole upon death. But the real answer likely surpasses anything I can imagine.

One thing I'll reiterate again (and I do it pretty often on the forum) is that 5-MeO-DMT is like the true essence of all the mystical traditions condensed into the form of a molecule. In many ways, it lines up 1:1 with their highest prizes and ultimate goals. It's unbelievable how powerful of a tool it can be for this kind of thing.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Does this first of all endorse the Kundalini system itself pretty much with little doubt now?

I'd say it endorses the idea of an energetic or some other phenomena that seems to be experienced that is systematized by paradigms like kundalini. Yoruba have a similar energetic system. There are also synonymous attributes in Chinese energy systems.

I don't think that this is outside the realm of power of suggestion. Buying into certain ideas, even subtly, and degrees of confirmation bias can augment one's experience with a given thing and lead one down certain interpretive routes.

There's more I could add, but the philosophical questions glaring at me are probably out of place to share here. Interesting talk though. Thanks for starting it and having it.

One love