A/B vs STB Comparison (pics) + FINAL TALLY!

[jbark]

I noticed an absence of direct Tek comparisons, so i decided to start one here. I tracked down the simplest A/B tek from the wiki ( panoraMIX EUROPEAN AB) and will contrast it with Gir's STB tek

Both A/B and STB were done with 100g of MHRB from the same vendor, same batch. Distilled water was used in both extractions.

A/B NOTES

The acid used, instead of vinegar, was muriatic acid (i have plenty left over from other extractions). 10 ml of 31.45% solution was added to 1L of distilled water, yielding the targeted pH 2. I suspect that the 4 days steeping recommended for vinegar is likely unnecessary with muriatic acid at this pH, but in the interest of not changing any more variables, I will wait patiently.

STB NOTES

I used 2 1L mason jars instead of the tek's milk jug. Everything else (minus the optional but recommended joint ) was followed to the letter to step 8. I did 3 pulls the first night. Then 1 the following evening after the naptha was in the Lye/Bark mixture for 24 hours, and will do a 5th in another 24 hours. Pulls 1-3 are presently in the freezer, and I will group 4 and 5 tomorrow and do the same. Separating like this helps me evaluate if more pulls are necessary - if the yield in 4 & 5 is close to the yield of 1-3, or at least still significant, I know to press on and do further pulls.

Results & pics to follow!! I encourage others to do similar tek comaparisons. Maybe a foodsafe vs standard AB? or BLAB vs something else?

Cheers,
JBArk

 

[Gir]

Awesome Look at those jet black jars of goodness.

What about pull pictures !?!?!!? Isnt it weird, in the A/B, how the foam separates and the lower portions fall? I found that "swirling" in a circular motion with the jar takes a lot of that foam away, and mixes the stuff pretty well.

-gir

 

[endlessness]

Awesome jbark! Im very curious of the results!!

I totally recommend all others to do side-by-side tests because isolating the variables brings us great knowledge about what are the best/most efficient ways of extracting. Once I tried making a side-by-side extraction with stb and a/b (a more standard a/b, with 3x boils+straining, not the soak+adding base), and yield didnt seem significantly different but I made the mistake of not labellign the containers properly, so things might have gotten mixed up, so it wasnt really reliable results.

The other 3 side-by-side tests I made were: grinded rue vs whole rue (filtering was a pain in both, and whole rue had significantly lower yield). Then I tested converting dmt acetate by mixing with sodium carbonate and pulling with IPA vs Acetone (yield was EXACTLY the same). I also tested converting dmt fumarate with water crystalization vs making sodium carb paste and pulling with IPA (yield was also the same, but the water crystalization was cleaner looking white crystals vs yellow crystals from sodium carb and IPA pulls)

 

[benzyme]

aha

that's the muriatic acid from canadian tire, on the shelf in a plastic bag

 

[jbark]

aha

that's the muriatic acid from canadian tire, on the shelf in a plastic bag

You got it!! right down to the bag!!

 

[jbark]

STB

After 40 hours, pulls 1-3 of the STB have been removed from freezer (pics below). The pics of the jar are pull # 4.

Once the naptha evapped from the funnel I used to pour off the naptha, I smelled it - the distinct odor of DMT wafted up...! I wonder if there is more DMT in the naptha. I will wait until I have freeze precipped 4 & 5 and poured off the naptha and maybe put all remaining naptha back in the freezer for 72 hours +.

Another curious observation: the liquid level in the STB jars went up signifivcantly from the original level after each pull - is some of the napthha trapped in there? converted to something else?

Qusetion: can anyone identify the yellow edges along the pyrex where the crystals trail off? Is it plant fats, or dmt oxide or... (now I am getting beyond the sphere of my knowledge...)

EDIT: if you look closely at the CU of the jar on the left, you can see the camera - and ME!!

Cheers,
JBArk

 

[benzyme]

did u get the bark from Psychonaut?

if i were still up there, i'd have met up with ya for some spice sessions. i sublimed some spice while i lived up there,
and gave some to a concordia buddy. good times, good times

 

[jbark]

did u get the bark from Psychonaut?

if i were still up there, i'd have met up with ya for some spice sessions. i sublimed some spice while i lived up there,
and gave some to a concordia buddy. good times, good times

Indeed I did! i was even there yesterday in search of some Pau d'arco to try it out in a changa mix. He had none, but is determined to find some for me and stock it!! Love that place! for those who don't know, it's a store in Montreal that sells EVERYTHING that is legal. except, of course, pau d'arco....

Yeah, too bad you're not here anymore. Let me know if you come my way.

cheers,
JBArk

 

[gibran2]

I use an A/B technique with powdered MHRB, and have discovered that there are several misconceptions perpetuated by most TEKs. I haven’t posted these before, because I’m not interested in arguing or defending these points. These are observations I’ve made after much experimentation:

1 ----- Very little if any acid has to be added to the bark powder. I’ve never tried using no acid at all, but as little as 50mL of 5% acetic acid in 2L of water yields the same results as much more. My guess is that most/all of the DMT in MHRB is already in salt form. I bet that acid has little to no effect on yield.

2 ----- Boiling of the acidified solution is totally unnecessary. Some TEKs call for soaking/boiling for hours. I add hot (not boiling) water to the MHRB powder, stir it a few times, then let it settle. I then siphon off the liquid and repeat 3 more times.

3 ----- Filtration is unnecessary. Many TEKs use messy and wasteful filtration procedures to separate the liquid from the MHRB. This is not necessary. Allowing the solution to settle for 30-45 minutes and then siphoning off the clear liquid is a much cleaner and less wasteful way to do separations.

4 ----- Gentle boiling or slow simmering for reduction is not necessary. I do my reductions at a full boil. There is no loss of product that results from vigorous boiling, and over 1L of liquid can be reduced to 200mL in about 15 minutes. Depending on your stove, you might even reduce it faster than that.

5 ----- No separatory funnel is needed. Once the DMT-containing liquid is reduced, it can be processed in the same manner as a STB – the solution in a jar/bottle is basified (using far less base than STB), non-polar solvent is added, and the extraction proceeds like STB. No need for expensive equipment.

These adjustments make for a very quick and easy A/B with very good yields. (I’ve had yields of 1.75% with MHRB from a vendor known for high quality MHRB.)

 

[jbark]

There seems to be a lot of transparent goo around the crystals as well (pics above) Any idea what this might be? Never had it from an A/B (this is also my first STB)

JBArk

 

[benzyme]

that's most likely plant lipids

 

[Gir]

It looks like theres a bit of an emulsion on the jars. Crazy shaker you. And I cant really see you at all, maybe get a better accidental picture.

The Naptha looks nice, So do the crystals, Essacly what SWIMs looked like when he used my freezer one time. The yellow isnt fats I dont think (since MHRB is extremely anorexic ~.o not much fat at all), its probably oil/oxide mixture, I get that a lot.

have you noticed any changes in the color of the naptha leaving them in for longer times? Did you use heated naptha?? I find that using heated increases yeild (just a bit) but brings a bunch of contam with it.. weird....

Lewkin gewd so faaaaar!

-gir

 

[Trickster]

First off, Panoramix's is not exactly an A/B, but rather an STB with an acid pre-soak. So it is hardly a general A/B to STB correction, rather Panoramix to Gir tek comparison.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

First off, Panoramix's is not exactly an A/B, but rather an STB with an acid pre-soak. So it is hardly a general A/B to STB correction, rather Panoramix to Gir tek comparison.

and second off...?

Also, isn't any tek that goes from acid soak to basifying A/B? People seem to get hung up on the filtering, but it seems, at least to my mind, that if your extraction has an acidifying phase preceding a basifying stage then you're doing an A/B. I know some people don't consider the BLAB an A/B either, but again, I think it qualifies. I'd be interested in hearing from those who disagree as to why they feel this is not the case.

 

[Trickster]

First off, Panoramix's is not exactly an A/B, but rather an STB with an acid pre-soak. So it is hardly a general A/B to STB correction, rather Panoramix to Gir tek comparison.

and second off...?

Also, isn't any tek that goes from acid soak to basifying A/B? People seem to get hung up on the filtering, but it seems, at least to my mind, that if your extraction has an acidifying phase preceding a basifying stage then you're doing an A/B. I know some people don't consider the BLAB an A/B either, but again, I think it qualifies. I'd be interested in hearing from those who disagree as to why they feel this is not the case.

You're both right and wrong. Unless we have definitions of A/B and STB teks accepted by everyone, the discussion is useless. That's why it is more appropriate to name this topic - Comparison of Panoramix and Gir teks. That is practical and useful.

IME Panoramix's tek produces dirty spice (same as an STB), that requires further cleaning. On the other hand, a more classic A/B gives me snow white product that does not require cleaning. This is also practical and useful information for me.

 

[gibran2]

My understanding (my assumption) is that an A/B always has a volume reduction step (via boiling) prior to basification. Is this correct? If not, then why acidify in the first place?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

First off, Panoramix's is not exactly an A/B, but rather an STB with an acid pre-soak. So it is hardly a general A/B to STB correction, rather Panoramix to Gir tek comparison.

and second off...?

Also, isn't any tek that goes from acid soak to basifying A/B? People seem to get hung up on the filtering, but it seems, at least to my mind, that if your extraction has an acidifying phase preceding a basifying stage then you're doing an A/B. I know some people don't consider the BLAB an A/B either, but again, I think it qualifies. I'd be interested in hearing from those who disagree as to why they feel this is not the case.

You're both right and wrong. Unless we have definitions of A/B and STB teks accepted by everyone, the discussion is useless. That's why it is more appropriate to name this topic - Comparison of Panoramix and Gir teks. That is practical and useful.

IME Panoramix's tek produces dirty spice (same as an STB), that requires further cleaning. On the other hand, a more classic A/B gives me snow white product that does not require cleaning. This is also practical and useful information for me.

I hear what you're saying, but it seems to me that teks should be classified by what they are rather than what they produce. That is, A/B doesn't necessarily have to produce "pure white" spice and STB doesn't necessarily have to produce "dirty" spice. Imho, the terms A/B and STB refer to the procedures taken to extract the product, not the quality of the end product. For example, if you do what I believe you would consider to be a true A/B (say Marsofold's) and accidentally suck up basified mhrb solution, it would require further cleaning and thus, by your definition (or at least how it appears to me) not qualify for A/B. I dunno, what do you think?

My understanding (my assumption) is that an A/B always has a volume reduction step (via boiling) prior to basification. Is this correct? If not, then why acidify in the first place?

I don't generally reduce volume, although I have in the past. I do A/B cuz I feel working with liquid is easier than working with sludge and because I find it makes for a relatively clean product (also, I believe it's the "correct" lab method for such an extraction, although I could be wildly mistaken on that).

 

[Trickster]

.. teks should be classified by what they are rather than what they produce. That is, A/B doesn't necessarily have to produce "pure white" spice and STB doesn't necessarily have to produce "dirty" spice.

Again, you're right. I steered off the course speaking of the product quality.

I firmly believe that most disagreements disappear once people agree on definitions.

I think it would be sensible first to find out if there already are clear, unambiguous definitions of an A/B and an STB tek, then we either take those definitions as a point of reference or produce our own mutually acceptable ones.

How would you call a tek where I freeze solid then thaw mhrb in a microwave using acidified water and then proceed with an STB? Is it an A/B or an STB?

So, my point is that the current topic is not a comparison of A/B extractions and STB extractions as wide general classes of extractions, but rather a comparison of two specific extractions, regardless of how we call them.

For example, if you do what I believe you would consider to be a true A/B (say Marsofold's) and accidentally suck up basified mhrb solution, it would require further cleaning and thus, by your definition (or at least how it appears to me) not qualify for A/B. I dunno, what do you think?

Well. Screw-ups are an entirely different issue .

 

[Trickster]

My understanding (my assumption) is that an A/B always has a volume reduction step (via boiling) prior to basification. Is this correct? If not, then why acidify in the first place?

I use an extractor (CSLE) and usually end up with 0.3-0.4 l of acidified, aqueous solution without any reduction. After decanting and filtering there is no need whatsoever to reduce its volume before basification, so reduction is not a definitive factor.

Acidifying is important to turn the spice into a water-soluble salt, so we can get rid of the solids. That is, IMO, an essential difference between an A/B and an STB. In an STB solids are kept throughout the process, whereus in an A/B they are discarded BEFORE basifying the solution.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

So, my point is that the current topic is not a comparison of A/B extractions and STB extractions as wide general classes of extractions, but rather a comparison of two specific extractions, regardless of how we call them.

Gotcha :d perhaps time for a poll on tek terminology?

For example, if you do what I believe you would consider to be a true A/B (say Marsofold's) and accidentally suck up basified mhrb solution, it would require further cleaning and thus, by your definition (or at least how it appears to me) not qualify for A/B. I dunno, what do you think?

Well. Screw-ups are an entirely different issue .

aaaah yes, they most certainly are