A discussion on the achievement of buddha hood

[Hyperspace Fool]

What is this enlightened state supposed to be like compared to normal waking consciousness?

Can anyone tell me what exactly is suppose to happen when you meditate that enlightens you? Has anyone had that happen while they were meditating?

Well, the short answer to the second question is... no. No one can tell you.

The answer to the first question is also likely to disappoint... it is not "supposed" to be like anything.

To give you a bit more of what you really want to hear, though... I will say that despite there being as many conceptions of "enlightenment" as there are minds to conceive, there are certain concepts that tend to be fairly universal. Most people would probably agree that the special powers (signs and wonders in biblical terms and siddhis in sanskrit) are not necessarily connected to, pre-requisite for, or a result of enlightenment. This means you can develop and use them without being enlightened and you could conceivably become enlightened and never experience them.

My advice to you is to recognize that this is a very LONG journey. If it is even possible for you in this lifetime, it would still be the result of uncountable eons of evolution (spiritual & physical). Meditating a few times will not produce noticeable results... usually. In fact, it is my belief that simply sitting down and attempting to meditate is not actually meditating. Meditation is the state you reach when you are already somewhat skilled in whatever meditation technique you find suitable.

Anyway Matukuul. I wouldn't worry about it. By the time it might matter to you personally, none of this intellectualizing will make a bit of difference.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

1. Do others believe this to be an actual possibility??

yes, we all have a Buddha nature

2. Is anyone(else) on this quest, and if so how close do you feel to be?

is there anyone who is not on this quest?
There is no answer to give for the second part.
Is it like a destination that you get closer to?
If it is, then it is like a destination that nobody reaches and does not exist, because if someone reached it and if it existed, it would not be what it is.

3. Does anyone else get repeated visions/messages/etc. that they are destined to be the vessel for our creator to come onto this world? I have read lots of experiences where people have great insights, and experiences where they have been at the foot of God, or even been God, but they seem totally different than my repeated experiences.

no person can trust their thoughts or mind
Are we not all vessels for the divine?
Is there a creator who has to come into this world?
Or are you meant to realize that the divine is within you as you and there is no creator that is separate from you that must dwell in you?
Would a creator create a world they had to enter a vessel to be in?
What created the creator?
Do origins really exist?
Do things originate now or did they originate then?

3.-I feel that the creator will actually be re-born in me, onto his earth to set right all the wrongs that Satan(or evil forces in general) have put forth on his creation. And to liberate all beings from the bondage of their egos, and from this evil influence. Men will continue to have free will, but will choose to use it correctly in this enlightened state. No more hate, no more war.

yes, "in you"
But you shall not remove the choices of people,
Nor shall you quench their desire
If you would liberate them, do so with an example by liberating yourself.
No person and no god can save another, it is up to ourselves to free ourselves.

As Buddha teaches, life and suffering are inseparable, desire is the root of wrongdoing.
To desire Buddhahood is to desire to be without desire.
To desire to be without desire is to in the bondage of 'ego'
Who desires?

Nobody achieves enlightenment, if someone achieved enlightenment it would not be enlightenment.

Subhuti, it is the same concerning Bodhisattvas. If a Bodhisattva announces: I will liberate all living creatures, he is not rightly called a Bodhisattva. Wherefore? Because, Subhuti, there is really no such condition as that called Bodhisattvaship, because Buddha teaches that all things are devoid of selfhood, devoid of separate individuality. Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva announces: I will set forth majestic Buddha-lands, one does not call him a Bodhisattva, because the Tathagata has declared that the setting forth of majestic Buddha-lands is not really such: "a majestic setting forth" is just the name given to it.

Subhuti, Bodhisattvas who are wholly devoid of any conception of separate selfhood are truthfully called Bodhisattvas. Subhuti, what do you think? Let no one say the Tathagata cherishes the idea: I must liberate all living beings. Allow no such thought, Subhuti.

Wherefore? Because in reality there are no living beings to be liberated by the Tathagata. If there were living beings for the Tathagata to liberate, He would partake in the idea of selfhood, personality entity, and separate individuality.

Subhuti, though the common people accept egoity as real, the Tathagata declares that ego is not different from non-ego. Subhuti, those whom the Tathagata referred to as "common people" are not really common people; such is merely a name.

from the Diamond Sutra

Can anyone truly say "I have no attachment" is not the very concept of I an attachment?
Can anyone truly say "I will attain enlightenment"?

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Buddha was lucky. He lived as a carefree prince, before he decided to search for the meaning of life. I suggest anyone interested in developing their buddha nature get their life sorted out, so that they don't have to concern themselves with the basic responsabilities that are part of regular life. Only when one is at peace with that being sorted, can one fully give oneself to the journey of achieving enlightenment...

it is taught to chop wood and carry water, because Buddha nature cannot be attained by people who do not mind their basic responsibilities in life

 

[Ljosalfar]

Best book I've ever read on Buddhism, hands down... a very slim volume titled Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor. Lucid, skillful, profound, relevant, revolutionary. Check it out.
L

 

[christian]

Buddha was lucky. He lived as a carefree prince, before he decided to search for the meaning of life. I suggest anyone interested in developing their buddha nature get their life sorted out, so that they don't have to concern themselves with the basic responsabilities that are part of regular life. Only when one is at peace with that being sorted, can one fully give oneself to the journey of achieving enlightenment...

it is taught to chop wood and carry water, because Buddha nature cannot be attained by people who do not mind their basic responsibilities in life

- Thanks for confirmation, Albert.
The way i see it is this: If you have mastered a simple lifestyle, where you do not have anything to worry yourself about, then you are in a better position to be focussed in a quest for enlightenment. Buddha had to leave his family behind too. Buddha learnt the hard way, and the only way, that a life of moderation was the best way to live. Translated into todays way of thinking it would mean finding a job you enjoy, working the hours that suit you. Choosing to live a simple stress free life where worries and concerns are minimised. To take holidays to places in the nature, and chill out, etc.

-Indeed, it's also possible to goto Asia and just spend a few years in a Temple, etc. But this could be thought of as an escape from the true buddhist idea. In fact Buddhism in Asia, isn't Pure anymore. Goto Thailand, and you'll see people giving daily offerings to the mini buddhist stupas that are abound. What has that or golden buddha statues got to do with Buddhism, i ask???:x

-In fact, there is a famous Thai monk called Bikkhu, who has also complained about "material Buddhism", and he teaches in a temple in the nature, that is simple built. Perhaps the kinda place where Buddha would have been happier. And perhaps where one is much more likely to find ones true Buddha self??

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

you are right, moderation of lifestyle, of food, of thought etc is key to the non-method
if we are hung up on things like this then we will have a very hard time with it

this is why Jesus says that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom, he is not talking about an afterlife, he is talking about enlightenment and attachment, at least to me it seems so

this is the Tathagata had followers give up their ways and follow him as beggars eating limited amounts of food, because to teach them he had to have them be receptive


Buddha did not seem to encourage temple based teachings.
However my religion does maintain that he was taught by a man who initiated him in Tao, that Buddha was just a human who received very ancient teachings about the nature of nature and self.
While this is what I believe, it doesn't mean it is correct, or incorrect. the message is so much more important than the medium

 

[christian]

True, Albert!
May i wish he who wisheth to increase his possability of noble Buddhahood enlightenment the very best of success.

 

[matukuul]

To give you a bit more of what you really want to hear, though... I will say that despite there being as many conceptions of "enlightenment" as there are minds to conceive, there are certain concepts that tend to be fairly universal. Most people would probably agree that the special powers (signs and wonders in biblical terms and siddhis in sanskrit) are not necessarily connected to, pre-requisite for, or a result of enlightenment. This means you can develop and use them without being enlightened and you could conceivably become enlightened and never experience them.

I understand what you're saying with this because I actually think I'm a very 'enlightened' individual.. much more so than the average person, not to toot my own horn or anything, and I certainly haven't had the privilege of experiencing any such phenomena as astral projection, lucid dreaming (except one time when I was young, very incredible), OBE's, the accessing of information from akashic records, the channeling of or communication with non-physical entities and/or personalities, activating celluar memory of all past, future, and probable selves, and earth history, etc, or I have even heard of someone being able to project their consciousness into an adjacent reality in which one is able to foresee the outcomes of probable choices to a decision that will be coming up soon in ones life so that when the time comes to make the decision they will know which choice they would like to make.. Not to mention all kinds of other phenomena that I've read about.. And as you said, I don't think that anyone would necessarily have to be versed in the knowledge that it's generally required one must know to be considered enlightened to experience such phenomena, although I'm sure it helps.

Idk. It all seems possible to me, and I don't think such things are as hard as most people think.

I think happiness is the key, along with a life that is rather simple and free from worry, as many have said.. Which is why I can definitely see why it's hard for most people to make that a reality, due to the surrounding environment.. But personally I feel that I am truly in such a position, which I have rightfully earned all on my own.. It was not handed down to me, I am not spoiled, and it was not made at the expense of others, but actually often at their benefit.. I have forged what I believe to be true freedom, and at a young age. Now I have a lifetime to harness it.. That doesn't mean I'm gonna sit around for the rest of my life waiting for these phenomena to occur, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did because I'm one happy creative motherfucker, and I got it made to say the least. I love my life, my friends, my family, I bring joy to other peoples lives, they bring joy to mine, I'm intelligent, down to earth, and I think I've pretty much got it figured out how the universe operates.. If there was ever a check list of requirements for such expansions of consciousness to occur, I think I would be highly qualified.

With that said, I'm not holding my breathe.

Then again, I've only been able to try DMT so far 2-3 times and have yet to break through (thought I'm very experienced in LSD, shrooms, and high quality mdma ), so who knows what sort of phenomena might be triggered once I get to do some heavy experimenting.. Shamans claim such phenomena as I've described above happens to them after consuming plants containing DMT, but I've heard smoking it is even more powerful, so who knows how many people in this modern era are being shock initiated into shamanic states now that we have this ultra powerful form which you can simply blast off with... But I suppose we'd be hearing about them. Maybe the phenomena I'm describing is actually the result of natural releases of DMT and other unidentified psychoactive chemicals in the brain brought on by achieving a highly civilized mental state... So by smoking DMT, we gain a forced glimpse into abilities which we have not yet developed.. Which would explain why the trips are so seemingly chaotic?

Idk, maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about and all my thoughts will be blown out of the water when I finally get my hands on enough to experiment with.. But I feel like they will be somewhat validated.. Only time will tell I suppose..

Anyway.. Thoughts?

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

@ matukuul

You seem to be headed in the right direction(s). Not sure what you consider young, but anything really worthwhile often takes a considerable amount of time. To master something is a path without a fixed goal.

All of the skills you mention and more can be achieved through discipline, practice, happenstance, innate ability, the goodwill of a master etc. etc. Anyone can train themselves to have OOBEs and Lucid Dreams. Anyone can develop skills that seem miraculous to the uninitiated. Some things seem considerably less magical once you understand how they work... others seem even more magical. Flying on a jet plane while editing a film on a laptop is miraculous to those who have never done either.

Developing one's inner technology is more satisfying than using external tech you didn't personally develop. People who experiment on themselves and cultivate their abilities are a special breed. It takes courage and a willingness to fail. You will probably fall flat on your face at times... but if your will is strong enough, you will persevere and come to understand mechanisms and techniques that can not be taught completely.

People are what they do. If you paint, you are a painter. Living in our modern society often limits the things you can do easily. Fear of being different and the reprecussions of violating morays and taboos further constrains. The people who can do miraculous things know this, and tend to remove themselves from the stifiling world of materialism. Skills you could develop easily in remote isolation will be infinitely harder to develop if you have a rigid 9 to 5, family and social concerns, and the constant bombardment of social programming most people face everyday. Who has time for miracles and infinity? Also, routines tend to dull your awareness.

Anyway, my friend.... good luck to you.

 

[christian]

@ matukuul


People are what they do. If you paint, you are a painter.

--Well, NO, not really. Do not confuse your job with who you are on the inside. You are a divine spirit. What you do is not a true reflection of who you are at all . Never judge people from what they do. They may learn and master a skill, but that IS NOT who they are.8)

--To say you are what you do, is what society has been programmed to believe, but not something spiritual people would agree with, -NEVER!!

-Being a true buddhist means living without attatchments. It's all about being the true inner diamond that you are, and not about external so called "duties". In fact a simple diet, solitude, meditation, and cultivating loving kindness and mindfulness are the main things one should concern oneself with "working at", or some outer job working in line with that philosophy such as growing organic vegetables, etc. Never should a true Buddhist be interested about his job more than the fact that it is just a job-not a status symbol or a thing of respect.

-In fact anything that distracts one from their inner diamond is to be discouraged. Meditation is the tool used to re-connect to that inner core, or diamond. I'm sure Ayahuasca has been used by shamen for the same purposes as for them to find their true Buddha natures, because it can provide deep insights and help cultivate understanding, rather than smoked dmt which is over before it's begun,etc!...

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

@ matukuul


People are what they do. If you paint, you are a painter.

--Well, NO, not really. Do not confuse your job with who you are on the inside. You are a divine spirit. What you do is not a true reflection of who you are at all . Never judge people from what they do. They may learn and master a skill, but that IS NOT who they are.8)

--To say you are what you do, is what society has been programmed to believe, but not something spiritual people would agree with, -NEVER!!

-Being a true buddhist means living without attatchments. It's all about being the true inner diamond that you are, and not about external so called "duties". In fact a simple diet, solitude, meditation, and cultivating loving kindness and mindfulness are the main things one should concern oneself with "working at", or some outer job working in line with that philosophy such as growing organic vegetables, etc. Never should a true Buddhist be interested about his job more than the fact that it is just a job-not a status symbol or a thing of respect.

-In fact anything that distracts one from their inner diamond is to be discouraged. Meditation is the tool used to re-connect to that inner core, or diamond. I'm sure Ayahuasca has been used by shamen for the same purposes as for them to find their true Buddha natures, because it can provide deep insights and help cultivate understanding, rather than smoked dmt which is over before it's begun,etc!...

I respect that that is your opinion.

I find it hard to agree with people who talk about "true" anything, though... especially Buddhism. Theraveda, Mahayana, Chan, Tibetan, Zen, Hinayana etc. are all so totally different from each other that they might as well be different religions. They often agree about nothing. Having practiced Buddhist Kung Fu for many decades, I have some knowledge on the subject. Still, I don't consider myself to be Buddhist. Taoism (and its internal arts) resonated more with me, but I am no Taoist either.

Anyway, my point was more that in the moment you are doing something... you are that activity. You lose your self in the action. Buddhists understand this, generally. It is called one-pointed-ness. If you are sweeping the floor, you become sweeping... not a person performing the task of sweeping.

Obviously forums are impersonal, and we can't say everything we mean in any given post. But I think you might have misinterpreted what I wrote. Not only was I not talking about jobs, status symbols, or the respect of other people... I was saying that if you want to master advanced psycho-physical spiritual skills, you probably have to leave society alltogether. Further, my implication was that if you want to BE enlightened, you have to DO enlightenment.

The idea that you can do a job and not be interested or focused on it runs counter to my understanding of Dharma... but then I am not judging.

Besides, while I enjoy the Lotus Sutra & the Diamond Sutra as much as the next guy... if not more... I don't think that the path advocated by Buddhists works all that well. The proof is that in the 3 millenia since Guatama Siddhartha sat under his tree in Bodhgaya... with millions upon millions of people trying extremely hard... there hasn't been another Buddha. (That we know of anyway.)

I am a pragmatist, and all about practicality. Experience of results justifies the method. If you practice Christianity, but do not receive the Holy Spirit... you must be doing something wrong. The Bible says that when you are filled with the Holy Spirit you can heal the sick, prophesize, cast out devils etc. etc... You don't see people en mass doing any of those things despite their sincere efforts, thus, their method must be flawed.

Most of the masters I have met with demonstrable skills were not overly sectarian or members of any fixed religious system. They tended to be hermits and fringe dwellers. Innocuous people who arranged their lives so that they could do what it is that they are.

 

[christian]

I understand you good points, HyPerspace.
Buddhism has become complicated and i'm not interested in all that stuff. To me, Buddhism is a simple, and not complex thing. In my opinion, when it's complex, it's lost, and it's not real Buddhism anymore. All this stuff like Kung Fu Buddhism, sounds more like "mindfulness" to me.

- People are more likely to gain enlightenment by finding their own meditive path through trial and error, like Buddha did-rather than follow rigid teachings which may have worked for some, but not all.

- tHE THING I'M TRYING TO EXPLAIN IS THIS. bUDDHISM ISN'T ABOUT "THINKING", it's about "flowing". It's about surrenderring the thinking mind and tapping into the real YOU, that's all. Buddha had to leave his family and riches to "dump" all that baggage, and start with a fresh slate. Sure, when you sweep, you become "sweeping" because that is where your focus is. That is called "the flow", and it is a "mindful, meditive state". HOWEVER, it is not the "STILL" fundamental, pre movement you. Buddhists meditate motionless in order to find their purest and truest inner Buddha selves. Of course once they have done this they can choose to add movement meditation should they choose, such as practised by "mindfulness"..are you still with me??, or did you give up ages ago. Yes, i do go on a bit..haha.

--Anyway, just my opinions, that's all.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I feel u christian.

And I agree about the flow. Recognizing your essential nature is a worthy goal as well... I just find that whatever you think it is, there is always another level deeper. Even when you connect to the pure emptiness, there is still a level of nothingness beyond that... and then a level of pure causality beyond that and so on.

Anywhooo... hehehe

I wish you well on your journeys.

 

[christian]

Thanks Hyperspace fool,
I agree with your point too. The thing about "thinking" is we put limits on reality, based on our own perspectives due to our limited understanding. Thus, "thinking" really is an insult to the true majesty of reality, and our thoughts cannot be trusted, because us humans like our comfort zones too much. The beauty of letting go, and flowing is that, yes, we realise that there is always something beyond nothing. Because life is a constant flux. Nothing ever stays still. Not even death.....

-Knowing this is a gift. Because one realises the futility in holding on, Obsessing, attatching oneself. Such things are futile. This probably explains the anxiety and ocd that people suffer today, is probably due to western society focussing too much on "permanence", which is a LIE. We are only here on earth for a limited time only, always flowing, so trying to stop the flow is the route of all ills, and anxieties. When we realise this, we can live a more joyeous and more spontaneous life i believe- free from silly obsessings, anxieties, etc.

-Well, that's what i think, anyhow!

 

[sheepie]

When you stop searching for enlightenment is when you realize its right here and its always been here.

 

[christian]

YES, stop searching means no more "thinking"..just like the trees, and the grass and the animals...no more thinking..... Just pure, and true. No need to feel guilty about being true.8)

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Stopping searching is good advice. These insights and wisdoms tend to come when you are open and receptive rather than active and goal oriented.

Still... it is a lot easier to talk about not thinking and not searching than it is to do it. And, (this is a big point) if simply not thinking and not searching were enough, there would be millions of Buddhas walking around. Most people are not searching for enlightenment. Tons of people don't think much if at all. By this logic, a simple farmer or a mentally handicapped man in an institute would be more likely to achieve enlightenment than people like us. Everyone who makes it here to this forum is at least somewhat thoughtful and searching.

Not that the idea of the simpleton Buddha is inconceivable. And surely, history is littered with people who pretended to be simple while being masters... to make their lives easier. Masters who are known to be masters spend their days dealing with people who seek them out. The "hidden masters" can perfect their art in private.

My opinion is that without the intention of expanding, improving and cultivating yourself... you are unlikely to make much progress in this lifetime. The key is more that you oscillate between thinking and non-thinking... between focus and non-focus... If you clarify your intent for higher states of being, you have to then let go and let the universe respond. (i.e. stop searching)

Words get in the way, but I think you peeps feel me.

 

[christian]

I understand your point Hyperspace Fool,
However, when i say we need to be " not thinking", i really mean that we need to stop obsessing. This is the problem in todays world. We think about our thoughts. It Takes discipline in order to get to the point where we are not even aware that we are thinking. This is the goal of meditation. Where we simply are, just like the grass, or an ant, or a rock. Where we flow, unhindered by fear,etc....

-So, Ironically, it takes thinking and analysis, to learn how to think correctly, ie, un-think 99% of the thoughts we think- in order to get to the truth, that we don't need to ACTIVELY think.

-To get to this state requires meditation, or some similar discipline. It cannot be achieved without such a discipline. The mind is like wildfire, and will certainly not be quiet in any living human, without some kind of mental discipline....:idea:

--With so many different schools of Buddhism about, i think we have to conclude that Buddha found his own path, and others found theirs. I think that Buddha devoted his lifetime to understanding the truth about life, and helping provide the knowledge for others. Buddha explained living right meant following the middle path.Just as us humans have our core selves, we also have our active external ego selves. Buddha explained for us that we would be wise to be in the middle, thus fully expressing a perfect mix of our full potential without being too introverted or too extroverted. Buddha didn't want anyone else to seek enlightenment, just more people to spread his word. So my understanding on the aim of Buddhism is to live a fulfilling life based on this wisdom, rather than to become a monk. Buddhism was never intended to be a passive thing but a workable wisdom for everyday life on earth...

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

I think happiness is the key,
Anyway.. Thoughts?

Happiness is the other side of sadness, peace is in between them.
neither be happy nor sad
having no self to be happy or sad

enlightenment is a non-thing, a non-state
no person can attain it,
nothing is gained
there is no method to reach it
it is not a destination

I agree with Christian.

Are people here familiar with the black buffalo that turns white?
or the role of Mantra in Buddhism?
it is worth looking into if you are serious about removing the distraction that prevents realization of nature

buddhism does not entail a cessation of thought, but it does let go of thought and know it for what it is

you are not your thoughts, you are not your hobbies, you are not your interests
you are not your occupation, you are not your label, you are not your name
you are not your experiences, not your opinions, not your perceptions
you are not what others think you are, you are not what you think you are
I is just a word

 

[Serenity]

Wow. I love the internet and the nexus.

Shoe absolutely blew my mind, but everyone had something of importance to add that you don't see in modern Western society typically, and what Cellux had to say really resonated. I thought my ideas were "out there", but I don't feel as though I'm so different now.

Shoe seems to be referring to Ascended Masters which from a surface level gaze a few days prior, seems to suggest a hybridization of all reasonable religious beliefs ranging from Jesus to Greek gods which I've been studying for the last few days. Thus, Shoe's "all in one" explanation of existence was quite fascinating.

All I have to say is that I'm glad I'm not the only one that has endless streams of intuition and reason-blanketing thought like this. I was starting to become dismayed that there were no others willing to speak about such things, and I'm sure eventually my roomie is going to start to think I'm crazy (as he's already warned me to be the case). So, I thank you Nexus for keeping my rent payment amicable, lol!

Blessings.