A little more info on defatting, please.

[Nexan1]

Firstly I wanna say that this forum is a great resource and thank you all, I have done a lot of reading, and value all of you sharing your knowledge of the spice.


swim rushed into buying some chacruna leaves from an online headshop and intends on attempting an a/b extraction.
it seems as though swim can follow most mhrb teks, and make sure to add thorough defatting.
swim has done a lot of reading since rushing into buying the Psychotria viridis and has ordered some mhrb and looks forward to using q21q21's no fuss tek.
anyhow, swim was asking about some more clarification on defatting the chacruna, like when and how to do it.

this is from the dmt extracion overview by Entropymancer:

(Optional) First Defatting Opportunity (Acid/Base Extraction Only)
If you made an acidic extract of the DMT salt, you can now take the opportunity to remove unwanted plant fats and impurities by extracting your acidic solution with a couple volumes of nonpolar solvent and the solvent discarded. Naphtha, toluene, or xylene are all acceptable for this step.

Assuming swim had heated the chacruna in water that had been acidified to pH 2-4, how exactly would swim ' extract the acidic solution with a couple of volumes of non-polar solvent'? and what would be the next step after completing the defat process?

any help, very appreciated. thanks

 

[endlessness]

I always found defatting quite a waste... yeah the principle is to use a non-polar solvent while the solution is acidic, because alkaloids will NOT be soluble in this solvent, only oils/inactives, and then discard this solvent. Next what you do is to proceed to adding a base to your acqueous solution and then make non-polar pulls again (this time you keep the solvent as it has the alkaloids)

In any case, I always found defatting a waste, because its a lot of non-polar solvent you will throw away.. Its quite inneficient, IMO.. can you get fumaric acid? if you extract with a non polar and then crash out the fumarate, a lot of the unwanted stuff will be eliminated anyways.. Or recrystalize your final product if you are unhappy with it, as with recrystalization you need minimal solvent that can even be reused, and you REALLY clean up your product

hope I made some sense to you

 

[Nexan1]

Yeah you made some sense haha. some...
if you think defat is a waste, that leads me to believe it isn't a necessary step..?
SWIM understands the concept, but not the practice, he wanted some more in depth instructions on how to do it, as he is new to the game.
thanks for the reply

 

[Entropymancer]

Yeah, with the fumaric acid methods around now, defatting with a nonpolar solvent is kinda outdated. Prior to the fumarate techniques it was practically required when extracting from acacia or phalaris.

As to how you physically accomplish it, it's exactly the same as using a nonpolar solvent to extract DMT. The only difference is that the aqueous acid holds onto the DMT so it doesn't go into the nonpolar solvent. Just mix the acidic DMT-laden water with the nonpolar solvent, swirl together, and separate.

 

[Nexan1]

thanks a lot

 

[Mr. Kush]

some one correct me if I am wrong....
doesnt the dmt in chacruna exist mostly in n-oxide,
so he's going to need to do a redox to get a decent yeild?

yea my Foaf used to defat with xylene then rinse once with naptha....the difference was small.
my foaf personally likes rexing with n-heptane and washing with activated carbon.

one thing that has been on my mind however is a gelatin defat..
anyone try this?
i've seen alot of people do it to their mimosa when making aya..

 

[Nexan1]

swim did tell me that a foaf told him They have extracted Psychotria Viridis leaf (chacruna) to white
crystal DMT. Just extract the same as They would with Mimosa, then
when They get goo instead of crystals, redissove the goo in a small
amount of vinegar. Defat with xylene, then rebasify with lye and
extract with naptha and freeze precipitate/wash. Theyll get pure
white crystals...

whats a redox, how/why does swim do it?

oxidation-reduction: a reversible chemical reaction in which one reaction is an oxidation and the reverse is a reduction

or

A mysterious character who hides in the darkness, Redox is a ninja. We will only learn more about Redox when he chooses to reveal himself again

??

 

[Mr. Kush]

The first quote you posted,
sapposivly it's active, however it's more gooey hard to crystalise, and not soluble in naptha..

I have heard of reports that say up to 80% the dmt exist as n-oxide,
however I cant be sure as I have not worked with these plants my self.

zinc would be the best to use as far as I know....
you would mix zinc into your aqueous after it's concentrated from your acid pulls,
making sure it's at a ph of 3 or below, stir at room temp for a couple hours then filter out.

the zinc should change isotopes with the n-oxide, grabbing it's oxegon molecule...vise versa.

at least this is how I understand it.

 

[Nexan1]

makes sense to me.
thanks for the tip

 

[Entropymancer]

The change isn't isotopic, that would imply neutrons are being lost or gained. It's a redox reaction: The DMT N-oxide is being reduced back to the parent amine (DMT), while the zinc is being oxidized with acetic acid acting as a catalyst (if I recall the chemistry of that particular reaction correctly).

I have no idea if any substantial amount of the DMT in chacruna exists as the N-oxide though. Never worked with chacruna myself, and I don't recall reading any papers on the subject.

 

[Nexan1]

interesting...
perhaps swim should just wait for the mimosa.
peace