Advice concerning Aya retreat please

[png]

Hola Amigos. I have no choice but to post this publicly for the sake of harm reduction. I dont know any other community that I can trust with this query.

A dear friend of mine has invited me to an Aya ceremony that he has been to before multiple tiems. The monetary cost is very high but that is perhaps a subjective opinion. We are talking close to €1000 for 2 days, one aya session, one mescaline.

Organised ceremonies at this price are not something I would consider. I would participate due to a strong desire from my friend to share the experience with me.

The cost is not my concern. The red flag is the 21 page document they are asking participants to fill out. They require full name, D.O.B, address, phone number, email, medical history, sexual preferences including frequency of masturbation and relationship to pornogrpahy if applicable. They even ask if participants have children or not. What for? They ask for address of registered doctors surgery and name of your doctor. Huh?

There is a lot more on top but I will spare the details. They want all this information completed and emailed to them 8 days before the ceremony. Not given face to face, but uploaded to the internet. Red flag alarms rising massively.

The country where this ceremony is to take place has a zero tolerance policy on psychedelic consumption not even for religious exemptions. So this is an illegal event, no reason to behave like a business covering it's liability. Completely black market.


Now I'd like to make very clear, I have no reason to think there is malicious intent. It is absolutely possible that these people are working sincerely through love and light with good intentions.

The whole document is stated as being necessary 'to give the maximum ability for the organisers to help each individual as much as possible'.

But this 21 page document is like nothing I have ever seen before. I would be most appreciative to hear any intuitions or experiences that could help me understand if my red flag alarm is valid or not.

Sorry for long post.
Ciao!

 

[Back2Normal]

Don’t tell people you dont trust how many times you jerk off. Who knows you might like em and tell em anyways. Just because a question is on a form doesn’t mean you need to answer it, let alone answer it truthfully. You’ll get what you get from the experience and if it’s somehow found lacking because you withheld a couple pieces of personal information out of 21 pages, you’re the only one who will know and have to deal with it. If its doesnt effect it and you have an awesome time, then who cares.

 

[png]

Hah! Probably about twice a week along side a healthy monogamous relationship. I dont care who knows that. Not really the point but made me laugh.

But is this level of information expected for an aya retreat? I dont do organised tripping, so I really dont know.

Why do they need my house address and doctors name if they are running a techincally illegal enterprise anyway?

 

[Varallo]

No, they do not actually need this information to do their work. But then you also have to ask what their work really is. Their job is essentially to let people trip for two days and “guide” that process. That guidance is indeed an activity where it can make sense to have some insight into people’s backgrounds. I can imagine that if they know that potential clients had a psychosis or other difficult psychiatric conditions, it would be useful to know that, and exclude them.

But all the other information is complete nonsense, for example the idea that masturbation is somehow bad or should be avoided before an ayahuasca experience. That’s simply not true, it reflects a more religious belief system.

As for asking for your doctor’s details, I don’t think that’s particularly useful either. Although I can imagine that if something were to happen during an ayahuasca session, the first response might be to contact your doctor, who would probably then not know what to do and is probably not able to share relevant information. But I’m not certain about that, it depends on the country.

In my opinion, most of these retreats mainly exist to make a lot of money from people. I know of people who run several groups a week with around ten participants and charge about a thousand euros per person. That’s essentially a cash machine. They beat a drum, ask supposedly deep spiritual questions that are actually quite superficial, spray some perfume around, burn some incense, and that’s about it. Of course, there’s lunch included and they need to rent a place to host the sessions, but compared to the total income that’s pretty minor.

So my advice would be, don’t bother filling this out and don’t go to those retreats. Just trip together with your friend and show them that you can have a fantastic and very personal experience without spending a thousand on it.

 

[TransistorBass]

Sounds like they will have a Wank-Shamen sorting you out at regular frequencies, I'm not too sure I'd have a wank conversation with my own doctor! haha and I'm open to talking most any old stuff with my doctor!! And sexual preference is nothing to do with anyone.

 

[blig-blug]

They are free to think that masturbation isn't advisable before Ayahuasca, but as @Varallo says, that's a religious belief. If they consider that important, they should advice you to not do it, but IMO asking for detailed information is completely inappropriate, and same with information about family etc.

I think it's likely that will be used to manipulate participants, not necessarily in an openly malicious way, but at least in a way that leads them to think highly of the retreat. For example, from what I've read, it's common for some bad retreats to blame the participant or their personal circumstances if the experience is underwhelming. It also may help create (in some people) an impression that what they are doing is so complex and customized to the participant that they need all that information, as they claim they will do.

If I were to go to a retreat, I would make sure that I share both the basic beliefs that the organizers espouse, and their approach to them.

21 pages of detailed personal information is completely unnecessary. My opinion is that's a bad sign, and you seem to think so as well, given that you came to ask here. Regardless of anything else, I don't think being with a group of people that you don't fully trust will be conductive to a good set and setting, and forcing yourself to trust people without good reasons to do so is a bad idea. Trust your gut here.

As for asking for your doctor’s details, I don’t think that’s particularly useful either. Although I can imagine that if something were to happen during an ayahuasca session, the first response might be to contact your doctor, who would probably then not know what to do and is probably not able to share relevant information. But I’m not certain about that, it depends on the country.

I agree, and they should have their own doctor to begin with. If they do, no reason to ask about yours. And if they don't, again that's a very bad sign (and to be expected if it's being done illegally).

In my opinion, most of these retreats mainly exist to make a lot of money from people

And that's almost the best case scenario. Some are cults and psychologically abuse and control their participants, a cult is the ultimate cash cow after all.

So my advice would be, don’t bother filling this out and don’t go to those retreats. Just trip together with your friend and show them that you can have a fantastic and very personal experience without spending a thousand on it.

I agree with this, however the friend may not see it the same way, some people want to delegate the responsibility of their experience to an external party because they feel safer doing so. In reality, you can never delegate personal responsibility for your own mind. But if this is the case, maybe you could give some basic safety instructions to some other friend and have them tripsit you both.

 

[Varox]

tripsitting for eachother as a first individual experience could work too - so not both tripping at the same time. My intuition and truth bells tell me to never mix money and magic, it has the potential to get ugly.

 

[Jamie01]

Avoid the more crazy ayahuasca cult leaders IMO. These people are often lunatics IME.

If other people want to pay for that, let them.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The cost is not my concern. The red flag is the 21 page document they are asking participants to fill out. They require full name, D.O.B, address, phone number, email, medical history, sexual preferences including frequency of masturbation and relationship to pornogrpahy if applicable. They even ask if participants have children or not. What for? They ask for address of registered doctors surgery and name of your doctor. Huh?

There is a lot more on top but I will spare the details. They want all this information completed and emailed to them 8 days before the ceremony. Not given face to face, but uploaded to the internet. Red flag alarms rising massively.

I speak as a guide at a center.

Regardless if they are above board or in the black market, they may want to cover their bases.

It sounds like they are providing medicine under a specific practice. The questions about masturbation and dieta fall in line with dieta requirements in some Aya communities, such as abstaining from sex, porn, and masturbation for a given period of time. And while I don't ask these questions, sexual themes can come up in these sessions. Having some of this information can be useful for the guides of something comes up in the session.

If you have children, themes related to that and how big a job that is can come up in experiences too.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be guided. It is a unique experience when you have an experienced guide as opposed to just tripping with a friend. Ceremony is very different than recreational.

At the center I work at, we also have a large packet of questions for people to fill out... it's imperative to be aware of who you're guiding.

One love

 

[png]

Thank you everyone for the different viewpoints.

For context. I have been exploring these realms for about 26 years. My friend a bit less but also many journeys under his belt and a good attitude.

This is not a first time thing for either of us in terms of molecules and our relationships with them.

It is however the first time I will be at a guided event. I would not choose to go that route although I am happy to experience it for my friend. I do not believe in financial gain from these molecules as a general rule and am naturally suspicious of people who make a living this way. Especially outside the rainforest. There are a lot of charlatans and frauds out there. There are also some genuine and beautiful people doing this too.

My conversations today with the lead guide have been positive and I am allowed to forgo the document as long as I sign a waiver and declare myself medical and psychologically fit. I will most likely attend as things stand despite my mindset strongly aligning with Varallo's line of thought.


It's great to see the thought and care in these responses for everyone. Happy to hear more if anyone has something to add.

Gracias a todos

 

[Voidmatrix]

Relative to people making a living, if they are providing a service, they still need to put food on their tables and into their mouths. I get we don't like money being connected to these molecules, but it is, and it's reasonable that someone doing this ancient work gets compensated. It's a red flag when a group is profit driven, not simply making a living.

I wish and hope the very best for you and your friend on your experience. You may be surprised.

One love

 

[Jamie01]

The money thing is something I personally can not overlook but it’s also not something that would hold me back if I felt it was genuinely going to help me…but even still those prices are for people who make way more than someone like me. I can think of so many ways I would rather spend a chunk of money like that. Ultimately it’s up to the individual to determine what is valuable to them.

 

[blig-blug]

For whatever reason, people involved in Aya retreats tend to be very different from other psychedelic guides. I don't know if it's due to it being a group activity, or because of the tendency to LARP as shamans and appropriate caricatures of Amazonian beliefs, but they seem much more prone to inflate their importance. They frequently claim that taking Aya on your own is extremely dangerous (while frequently claiming that it's not so with other psychedelics), something I've often read both from attendants to such retreats and by organizers is that taking it on your own is akin to "performing brain surgery on yourself" and thus highly irresponsible. It's a self-important attitude that reduces the people undergoing the experience to a passive and impotent role. If I were to look for a psychedelic guide, I would avoid anyone working on Aya retreats, unless it's someone that exceptionally breaks this pattern.

Best luck with your experience @png, hopefully you'll have been lucky and they will act in a reasonable way. If you have a lot of experience with psychedelics you're in a less vulnerable position, I think.

By the way, in the case that the country you will be in is Spain, you should know that buyng, owning, and drinking Ayahuasca is not illegal. Offering it to a group of people may be, but not under drug laws but under public health laws, considerably less harsh, and only applying to those offering it.

 

[Jamie01]

LARPing is a pretty fair description.

 

[png]

Thank you guys. This forum is good in so many ways.

Does anyone know more about specific names for the religions and beliefs in sexual abstinence before Aya? I'm interested to learn more where that comes from if anyone has the time.

@blig-blug the lead guide mentioned brain surgery almost word for word like you said it! Hah!

I felt an overall good energy and frank honesty from that guide and feel satisfied that they have a good heart.

@jamie me too! I'm very happy with being poor. Money never makes me happier. As a rule I do not think anyone outside the jungle has any right to claim superior knowledge or relationship with these molecules. Perhaps a first timer still can benefit from a safety net? Others, myself included, may feel a little intruded upon.

The price tag seems to exclude almost everyone from normal society. Luckily my friend is wealthy and insisted on paying. I know how badly he wants me to join him and I'm prepared to gamble a little to honor that.

Every word of response from each person has been aknowledged and appreciated.

 

[Varallo]

Relative to people making a living, if they are providing a service, they still need to put food on their tables and into their mouths. I get we don't like money being connected to these molecules, but it is, and it's reasonable that someone doing this ancient work gets compensated. It's a red flag when a group is profit driven, not simply making a living.

I wish and hope the very best for you and your friend on your experience. You may be surprised.

One love

This leads me to a question that I’ve been thinking about for quite a while myself: what would be a reasonable fee for something like this? There are, of course, all kinds of mechanisms behind pricing. For example, if something is expensive, people tend to assume it must be good. And if someone can charge that kind of price, people assume they must be doing a good job, even though we know that in practice this isn’t always the case.

Still, it makes me wonder what a reasonable price would actually be. What kind of costs do these people really have, and what do they end up keeping as profit?

The person I’m referring to makes around €8,000 to €10,000 per event. Those are small 8 to 10 person groups.

Of course, there are costs involved. They pay for the venue, which could easily be around €1,000 or more for a day if you choose a nice location. And then there are two of them running it. If you assume a serious day rate is about €1200 total €1600 that would come to €3,200 for the two of them.

Then there’s lunch for the participants, which I imagine costs around €500 to €600 for catering. There’s also the substance itself, which obviously costs something, but I think you’d really have to go out of your way to spend more than a few hundred euros on that. And then there are some additional materials, things like mats, cushions, buckets, and other items, which also cost something.

But even after adding all of that up, it still seems like there’s quite a bit of profit left. If I roughly calculate it, it looks like they might still keep somewhere around €3,000 to €5,000 net.

When you look more closely at these kinds of companies, there are also other costs and factors to consider. They still need to do marketing, usually there is a website involved, and there is quite a bit of acquisition work in the sense that they need to talk to people beforehand. Apparently they also use fairly thorough questionnaires as part of the intake process.

Then there is the issue of actual working hours versus billable hours, I mean there are only so many ceremonies they can realistically run, three or four per week?

Of course, that leaves a couple of days off, which is perfectly fine if you value the time. But financially those are also days without revenue.

When you take those factors into account, the €3,000 to €5,000 profit does not actually seem that excessive anymore. In that context, something like €1,000 per day might not be unreasonable. And in the case of the OP, €1,000 spread over two days is arguably not that expensive.

Seemingly by writing this I have convinced myself it’s basically just the price , but I’m really interested in what you @Voidmatrix think of this.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Does anyone know more about specific names for the religions and beliefs in sexual abstinence before Aya? I'm interested to learn more where that comes from if anyone has the time.

The Purpose and Origins of the Ayahuasca Dieta - Behold Retreats

Discover the purpose and origins of the ayahuasca dieta. Learn how a strict diet can prepare your body for an ayahuasca retreat and maximize healing potential.

www.behold-retreats.com

The Diet Before Ayahuasca: Modern Myth or Invented Tradition?

Is the diet before ayahuasca an ancient tradition or a modern invention? A look at Indigenous practice, Western projections, and spiritual colonialism.

realitysandwich.com

Ayahuasca and the “La Dieta” Debate: Tradition Without Context - Unlimited Sciences

The globalization of ayahuasca has resulted in significant cultural dilution, raising questions about practices like dieting before a retreat.

unlimitedsciences.org

It's hotly debated, lol. I tried to give resources that explore the idea more than fulfill dogma.

This leads me to a question that I’ve been thinking about for quite a while myself: what would be a reasonable fee for something like this? There are, of course, all kinds of mechanisms behind pricing. For example, if something is expensive, people tend to assume it must be good. And if someone can charge that kind of price, people assume they must be doing a good job, even though we know that in practice this isn’t always the case.

Still, it makes me wonder what a reasonable price would actually be. What kind of costs do these people really have, and what do they end up keeping as profit?

The person I’m referring to makes around €8,000 to €10,000 per event. Those are small 8 to 10 person groups.

Of course, there are costs involved. They pay for the venue, which could easily be around €1,000 or more for a day if you choose a nice location. And then there are two of them running it. If you assume a serious day rate is about €1200 total €1600 that would come to €3,200 for the two of them.

Then there’s lunch for the participants, which I imagine costs around €500 to €600 for catering. There’s also the substance itself, which obviously costs something, but I think you’d really have to go out of your way to spend more than a few hundred euros on that. And then there are some additional materials, things like mats, cushions, buckets, and other items, which also cost something.

But even after adding all of that up, it still seems like there’s quite a bit of profit left. If I roughly calculate it, it looks like they might still keep somewhere around €3,000 to €5,000 net.

When you look more closely at these kinds of companies, there are also other costs and factors to consider. They still need to do marketing, usually there is a website involved, and there is quite a bit of acquisition work in the sense that they need to talk to people beforehand. Apparently they also use fairly thorough questionnaires as part of the intake process.

Then there is the issue of actual working hours versus billable hours, I mean there are only so many ceremonies they can realistically run, three or four per week?

Of course, that leaves a couple of days off, which is perfectly fine if you value the time. But financially those are also days without revenue.

When you take those factors into account, the €3,000 to €5,000 profit does not actually seem that excessive anymore. In that context, something like €1,000 per day might not be unreasonable. And in the case of the OP, €1,000 spread over two days is arguably not that expensive.

Seemingly by writing this I’m convinced it’s basically just the price, but I’m really interested in what you @Voidmatrix think of this.

Boy, how I hate talking about money.

@Varallo you're spot on. I hate how expensive it is because it limits who can receive the service, and paradoxically, the people who could use it the most can't afford it. This is one of the reasons I have done probono work and one of the reasons I do groups. I also offer scholarships.

Things to be paid for: rent/venue, food, hourly rates for all staff (where I work there is also an admin team, which I am a part of that as well), marketing, insurance, medicine supplies, event supplies, and there's plenty I am forgetting. Money left over typically goes to the center for the next event, lawyers, insurance, marketing, etc. Now technically, my center is a non-profit, so profit isn't an interest to us anyway. We just want to live.

At my center, there have actually been events and ceremonies that we've lost money on.

One love

 

[blig-blug]

The Purpose and Origins of the Ayahuasca Dieta - Behold Retreats

Discover the purpose and origins of the ayahuasca dieta. Learn how a strict diet can prepare your body for an ayahuasca retreat and maximize healing potential.

www.behold-retreats.com

The Diet Before Ayahuasca: Modern Myth or Invented Tradition?

Is the diet before ayahuasca an ancient tradition or a modern invention? A look at Indigenous practice, Western projections, and spiritual colonialism.

realitysandwich.com

Ayahuasca and the “La Dieta” Debate: Tradition Without Context - Unlimited Sciences

The globalization of ayahuasca has resulted in significant cultural dilution, raising questions about practices like dieting before a retreat.

unlimitedsciences.org

It's hotly debated, lol. I tried to give resources that explore the idea more than fulfill dogma.


Boy, how I hate talking about money.

@Varallo you're spot on. I hate how expensive it is because it limits who can receive the service, and paradoxically, the people who could use it the most can't afford it. This is one of the reasons I have done probono work and one of the reasons I do groups. I also offer scholarships.

Things to be paid for: rent/venue, food, hourly rates for all staff (where I work there is also an admin team, which I am a part of that as well), marketing, insurance, medicine supplies, event supplies, and there's plenty I am forgetting. Money left over typically goes to the center for the next event, lawyers, insurance, marketing, etc. Now technically, my center is a non-profit, so profit isn't an interest to us anyway. We just want to live.

At my center, there have actually been events and ceremonies that we've lost money on.

One love

That Realitysandwich article is on point IMO, at least based on what I've read about the many contexts of Ayahuasca in the Amazon. That doesn't mean the diet is a bad idea, I just would prefer it to be understood as a personal spiritual practice that some people choose to do, rather than some kind of dogma and essential prerequisite.

 

[Varallo]

The Purpose and Origins of the Ayahuasca Dieta - Behold Retreats

Discover the purpose and origins of the ayahuasca dieta. Learn how a strict diet can prepare your body for an ayahuasca retreat and maximize healing potential.

www.behold-retreats.com

The Diet Before Ayahuasca: Modern Myth or Invented Tradition?

Is the diet before ayahuasca an ancient tradition or a modern invention? A look at Indigenous practice, Western projections, and spiritual colonialism.

realitysandwich.com

Ayahuasca and the “La Dieta” Debate: Tradition Without Context - Unlimited Sciences

The globalization of ayahuasca has resulted in significant cultural dilution, raising questions about practices like dieting before a retreat.

unlimitedsciences.org

It's hotly debated, lol. I tried to give resources that explore the idea more than fulfill dogma.


Boy, how I hate talking about money.

@Varallo you're spot on. I hate how expensive it is because it limits who can receive the service, and paradoxically, the people who could use it the most can't afford it. This is one of the reasons I have done probono work and one of the reasons I do groups. I also offer scholarships.

Things to be paid for: rent/venue, food, hourly rates for all staff (where I work there is also an admin team, which I am a part of that as well), marketing, insurance, medicine supplies, event supplies, and there's plenty I am forgetting. Money left over typically goes to the center for the next event, lawyers, insurance, marketing, etc. Now technically, my center is a non-profit, so profit isn't an interest to us anyway. We just want to live.

At my center, there have actually been events and ceremonies that we've lost money on.

One love

Thanks

This conversation is nuancing my thinking on the matter, so for now I conclude that; I think that if you are looking for a guided session, it is wise to check whether the organization behind it is a non-profit. From there, you can take the next step and ask what the goals of this non-profit are, and whether you can align yourself with them. Hopefully this also helps ensure that your contribution is proportional to what you receive, in combination with the goals of the organization of course.

 

[Voidmatrix]

That Realitysandwich article is on point IMO, at least based on what I've read about the many contexts of Ayahuasca in the Amazon. That doesn't mean the diet is a bad idea, I just would prefer it to be understood as a personal spiritual practice that some people choose to do, rather than some kind of dogma and essential prerequisite.

I feel there were a lot of weird elements that led to this stance and understanding by people. I think the media sensationalism was part of it. If I am not mistaken, I think curaderos have a recommended diet as well, but you don't hear about it as much as we do about Aya dieta. I think this is because the understanding of mushrooms by the masses was taken in differently with mushrooms than with Aya. People didn't come to know about mushrooms in the same light of ceremony and access to mushrooms is generally far easier than Aya, so people were more inclined to try mushrooms on their own than be swayed by the idea of going to the Amazon to be dosed in a special cup of a special brew. I think for many adhering to and proselytizing dieta is part of the sensationalism of Aya in the understanding by the masses.

This isn't to say that I don't think there's any power in the practice. It's like many other types of spiritual diets. They are an aid towards orienting oneself towards spiritual goals of various kinds, but don't seem to be imperative towards those ends either.

All the same, we should eat balanced diets. :lol:

One love