Advice concerning Aya retreat please

[png]

Hola Amigos. I have no choice but to post this publicly for the sake of harm reduction. I dont know any other community that I can trust with this query.

A dear friend of mine has invited me to an Aya ceremony that he has been to before multiple tiems. The monetary cost is very high but that is perhaps a subjective opinion. We are talking close to €1000 for 2 days, one aya session, one mescaline.

Organised ceremonies at this price are not something I would consider. I would participate due to a strong desire from my friend to share the experience with me.

The cost is not my concern. The red flag is the 21 page document they are asking participants to fill out. They require full name, D.O.B, address, phone number, email, medical history, sexual preferences including frequency of masturbation and relationship to pornogrpahy if applicable. They even ask if participants have children or not. What for? They ask for address of registered doctors surgery and name of your doctor. Huh?

There is a lot more on top but I will spare the details. They want all this information completed and emailed to them 8 days before the ceremony. Not given face to face, but uploaded to the internet. Red flag alarms rising massively.

The country where this ceremony is to take place has a zero tolerance policy on psychedelic consumption not even for religious exemptions. So this is an illegal event, no reason to behave like a business covering it's liability. Completely black market.


Now I'd like to make very clear, I have no reason to think there is malicious intent. It is absolutely possible that these people are working sincerely through love and light with good intentions.

The whole document is stated as being necessary 'to give the maximum ability for the organisers to help each individual as much as possible'.

But this 21 page document is like nothing I have ever seen before. I would be most appreciative to hear any intuitions or experiences that could help me understand if my red flag alarm is valid or not.

Sorry for long post.
Ciao!

 

[Back2Normal]

Don’t tell people you dont trust how many times you jerk off. Who knows you might like em and tell em anyways. Just because a question is on a form doesn’t mean you need to answer it, let alone answer it truthfully. You’ll get what you get from the experience and if it’s somehow found lacking because you withheld a couple pieces of personal information out of 21 pages, you’re the only one who will know and have to deal with it. If its doesnt effect it and you have an awesome time, then who cares.

 

[png]

Hah! Probably about twice a week along side a healthy monogamous relationship. I dont care who knows that. Not really the point but made me laugh.

But is this level of information expected for an aya retreat? I dont do organised tripping, so I really dont know.

Why do they need my house address and doctors name if they are running a techincally illegal enterprise anyway?

 

[Varallo]

No, they do not actually need this information to do their work. But then you also have to ask what their work really is. Their job is essentially to let people trip for two days and “guide” that process. That guidance is indeed an activity where it can make sense to have some insight into people’s backgrounds. I can imagine that if they know that potential clients had a psychosis or other difficult psychiatric conditions, it would be useful to know that, and exclude them.

But all the other information is complete nonsense, for example the idea that masturbation is somehow bad or should be avoided before an ayahuasca experience. That’s simply not true, it reflects a more religious belief system.

As for asking for your doctor’s details, I don’t think that’s particularly useful either. Although I can imagine that if something were to happen during an ayahuasca session, the first response might be to contact your doctor, who would probably then not know what to do and is probably not able to share relevant information. But I’m not certain about that, it depends on the country.

In my opinion, most of these retreats mainly exist to make a lot of money from people. I know of people who run several groups a week with around ten participants and charge about a thousand euros per person. That’s essentially a cash machine. They beat a drum, ask supposedly deep spiritual questions that are actually quite superficial, spray some perfume around, burn some incense, and that’s about it. Of course, there’s lunch included and they need to rent a place to host the sessions, but compared to the total income that’s pretty minor.

So my advice would be, don’t bother filling this out and don’t go to those retreats. Just trip together with your friend and show them that you can have a fantastic and very personal experience without spending a thousand on it.

 

[TransistorBass]

Sounds like they will have a Wank-Shamen sorting you out at regular frequencies, I'm not too sure I'd have a wank conversation with my own doctor! haha and I'm open to talking most any old stuff with my doctor!! And sexual preference is nothing to do with anyone.

 

[blig-blug]

They are free to think that masturbation isn't advisable before Ayahuasca, but as @Varallo says, that's a religious belief. If they consider that important, they should advice you to not do it, but IMO asking for detailed information is completely inappropriate, and same with information about family etc.

I think it's likely that will be used to manipulate participants, not necessarily in an openly malicious way, but at least in a way that leads them to think highly of the retreat. For example, from what I've read, it's common for some bad retreats to blame the participant or their personal circumstances if the experience is underwhelming. It also may help create (in some people) an impression that what they are doing is so complex and customized to the participant that they need all that information, as they claim they will do.

If I were to go to a retreat, I would make sure that I share both the basic beliefs that the organizers espouse, and their approach to them.

21 pages of detailed personal information is completely unnecessary. My opinion is that's a bad sign, and you seem to think so as well, given that you came to ask here. Regardless of anything else, I don't think being with a group of people that you don't fully trust will be conductive to a good set and setting, and forcing yourself to trust people without good reasons to do so is a bad idea. Trust your gut here.

As for asking for your doctor’s details, I don’t think that’s particularly useful either. Although I can imagine that if something were to happen during an ayahuasca session, the first response might be to contact your doctor, who would probably then not know what to do and is probably not able to share relevant information. But I’m not certain about that, it depends on the country.

I agree, and they should have their own doctor to begin with. If they do, no reason to ask about yours. And if they don't, again that's a very bad sign (and to be expected if it's being done illegally).

In my opinion, most of these retreats mainly exist to make a lot of money from people

And that's almost the best case scenario. Some are cults and psychologically abuse and control their participants, a cult is the ultimate cash cow after all.

So my advice would be, don’t bother filling this out and don’t go to those retreats. Just trip together with your friend and show them that you can have a fantastic and very personal experience without spending a thousand on it.

I agree with this, however the friend may not see it the same way, some people want to delegate the responsibility of their experience to an external party because they feel safer doing so. In reality, you can never delegate personal responsibility for your own mind. But if this is the case, maybe you could give some basic safety instructions to some other friend and have them tripsit you both.

 

[Varox]

tripsitting for eachother as a first individual experience could work too - so not both tripping at the same time. My intuition and truth bells tell me to never mix money and magic, it has the potential to get ugly.

 

[Jamie01]

Avoid the more crazy ayahuasca cult leaders IMO. These people are often lunatics IME.

If other people want to pay for that, let them.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The cost is not my concern. The red flag is the 21 page document they are asking participants to fill out. They require full name, D.O.B, address, phone number, email, medical history, sexual preferences including frequency of masturbation and relationship to pornogrpahy if applicable. They even ask if participants have children or not. What for? They ask for address of registered doctors surgery and name of your doctor. Huh?

There is a lot more on top but I will spare the details. They want all this information completed and emailed to them 8 days before the ceremony. Not given face to face, but uploaded to the internet. Red flag alarms rising massively.

I speak as a guide at a center.

Regardless if they are above board or in the black market, they may want to cover their bases.

It sounds like they are providing medicine under a specific practice. The questions about masturbation and dieta fall in line with dieta requirements in some Aya communities, such as abstaining from sex, porn, and masturbation for a given period of time. And while I don't ask these questions, sexual themes can come up in these sessions. Having some of this information can be useful for the guides of something comes up in the session.

If you have children, themes related to that and how big a job that is can come up in experiences too.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be guided. It is a unique experience when you have an experienced guide as opposed to just tripping with a friend. Ceremony is very different than recreational.

At the center I work at, we also have a large packet of questions for people to fill out... it's imperative to be aware of who you're guiding.

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