Always getting clear oil from Acacias

[fruityaussie]

Hey guys!
So my friend has been experimenting with a few different types of Acacias, Maidenii, Melanoxlyn, longfolia and baileyana. He's used bark and phyllodes in his experiments. He's been following an A/B tek using vinegar washes and Sodium Carbonate as a base. He has ph strips so he knows he's getting the Ph levels right, he's using 'Shellite' (Naptha) for the solvent. Also he very thoroughly de-fats, and uses dry material so he's pretty sure its not the plant fats he's getting in his results here.

All the steps work out fine except when he extracts and evaps he's consistently left with a clear oil. He gets different amounts of oil depending on what plant and what parts of that plant are used but he hasn't gotten any crystals.
He tried freeze precip, which froze the oils but again, no visible crystals.

the oil he gets smells like a sweet melted plastic? or kind of like erm.. man juice :? haha, and the phyllode extracts smell sweeter than the bark. The oil is very clear although he can kind of see particles in it, but that might just be dust that somehow got mixed up in the procedure?

From his research around the site he thinks what he's getting here is NMT, and if there is any DMT it's stuck in the NMT and won't crystallize.

He has made changa from it however and it's definitely active so he's still happy with the result!
But if there are any tests ya'll know off that could indicate what he has extracted that would be very handy! Or if anyone could tell me if they have gotten something similar? And if they have, what was the experiences smoking the oil?

 

[b1blazin]

Hope you still checkin this but i swim definately knows the how this feels. same issue NMT? is that what im getting so now what? any updates? also how does a fat contam happen. swim has definately made it work before only difference is new product swim is unsure of. its in spanish and says its Tepezcohuite-polvo. made by yerbamex. checks out?

 

[1ce]

Pure DMT can definitely be an oil. DMT is a polymorph, and this polymorph may prevent it from forming a crystalline structure. That's my own speculation, at least. If your DMT is contaminated with NMT or fats (this is not harmful) then it also may not crystallize.

 

[Heyt]

It's because he's using sodium carbonate. Same thing happened to me for a while. It's just not basic enough - period. There are teks that claim it is, but you should steer clear. I'm honestly astounded people still recommend it. NaCO3 is a weak base, and there's nothing you can do to change that. Try NaOH, he should have some nice crystals in a jiffy! :thumb_up:

EDIT: By the way, what I mean by weak base is that the sodium carbonate only dissociates in solution to a very minor extent (weak acids and bases usually dissociate around 1%, so only 1 in every 100 molecules of NaCO3 would be able to accept a proton, for example), whereas strong acids and bases (NaOH/lye is a strong base) typically dissociate at 99% or more, providing the necessary OH- ions to form H2O with the proton attached to your DMT salt molecules (assuming you use HCl as the acid in your A/B, otherwise the mechanism is different but results are the same).

Someone please feel free to correct any of that if it's not right, I'm still finishing my degree

strong and weak bases

Explains the meaning of the terms strong and weak as applied to bases

www.chemguide.co.uk

 

[b1blazin]

SWIM is actually using calcium hydroxide and has gotten great results in the past:thumb_up: . NOW that MHRB is harder to find SWIM got the polvo mentioned above id post a pic but jpeg wont upload:x . is this stuff the real deal or is it possible its been washed or something prventing an extraction. using q21 tek 2 fluffy white fun fest, only diffence from now and previous great results is product and it was let to sit about 7hrs(as suggested) after adding pickling lime

 

[b1blazin]

Pure DMT can definitely be an oil. DMT is a polymorph, and this polymorph may prevent it from forming a crystalline structure. That's my own speculation, at least. If your DMT is contaminated with NMT or fats (this is not harmful) then it also may not crystallize.

so would the object then be to soak up somehow in order to store?

 

[Koornut]

I'm curious about the results your friend got for A. Melanoxylon and Baileyaya, are you able to elaborate more on the details of your process with those two; time of year, where the raw material came from off the tree, flower/seed pod visibility etc.

 

[DreaMTripper]

Most probably a mix of alkaloids from those trees highly unlikely you will ever get just dmt they are not known to have a pure dmt profile..Oil is a common extract from Aussie acacias if you expect the mimosa extract experience and end product you will be disapointed.

 

[mdtraveler]

It's because he's using sodium carbonate. Same thing happened to me for a while. It's just not basic enough - period. There are teks that claim it is, but you should steer clear. I'm honestly astounded people still recommend it. NaCO3 is a weak base, and there's nothing you can do to change that. Try NaOH, he should have some nice crystals in a jiffy! :thumb_up:

EDIT: By the way, what I mean by weak base is that the sodium carbonate only dissociates in solution to a very minor extent (weak acids and bases usually dissociate around 1%, so only 1 in every 100 molecules of NaCO3 would be able to accept a proton, for example), whereas strong acids and bases (NaOH/lye is a strong base) typically dissociate at 99% or more, providing the necessary OH- ions to form H2O with the proton attached to your DMT salt molecules (assuming you use HCl as the acid in your A/B, otherwise the mechanism is different but results are the same).

Someone please feel free to correct any of that if it's not right, I'm still finishing my degree

strong and weak bases

I doubt that it's because of the carbonate. The oily consistancy is most likely due to a mixture of alkaloids. NaOH has been used exclusively in all experiments that I've been privy to with Acacia, and the translucent oil has been the result every time. Granted, it's only been a few times, but the same result EVERY time.

 

[Heyt]

It's because he's using sodium carbonate. Same thing happened to me for a while. It's just not basic enough - period. There are teks that claim it is, but you should steer clear. I'm honestly astounded people still recommend it. NaCO3 is a weak base, and there's nothing you can do to change that. Try NaOH, he should have some nice crystals in a jiffy! :thumb_up:

EDIT: By the way, what I mean by weak base is that the sodium carbonate only dissociates in solution to a very minor extent (weak acids and bases usually dissociate around 1%, so only 1 in every 100 molecules of NaCO3 would be able to accept a proton, for example), whereas strong acids and bases (NaOH/lye is a strong base) typically dissociate at 99% or more, providing the necessary OH- ions to form H2O with the proton attached to your DMT salt molecules (assuming you use HCl as the acid in your A/B, otherwise the mechanism is different but results are the same).

Someone please feel free to correct any of that if it's not right, I'm still finishing my degree

strong and weak bases

I doubt that it's because of the carbonate. The oily consistancy is most likely due to a mixture of alkaloids. NaOH has been used exclusively in all experiments that I've been privy to with Acacia, and the translucent oil has been the result every time. Granted, it's only been a few times, but the same result EVERY time.

Are you measuring pH? I only ask because I used to use sodium carbonate and never measured pH even when I switched to lye, and the sodium carbonate never worked ever and the lye was hit or miss until i bought a pH meter. Now i get fluffy white crystals every time, excluding scenarios in which bad bark is a factor.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be a mixture of alkaloids causing the effect, more that the reason it's a mixture of alkaloids (although in reality a plant fats are a more likely culprit, which once again is often the result of insufficient pH) is that the pH wasn't high enough to more selectively crash out the DMT. The other big factor here is solvent temperature, as ice cold solvent will yield less fats in proportion to alkaloids than warm or hot/boiling solvent, which will yield much more crude oils and waxes as opposed to crystals.

EDIT: To clarify I continued to yield clear goo or similar crude product (or more often nothing at all) until I began measuring pH.

 

[seasonsintheabyss]

I had this same exact thing happen with my Acacia extraction that I still haven't resolved yet after all this time. Followed the technique to a T, dish ends up covered in a translucent clear goo that is mildly sticky to the touch from evaporating or freezing. Scrapes up as a yellow oil that does not dry or solidify (it's been over a year). If you try to vape it, you can taste a hint of DMT in there but it does nothing. My base mix is still a reddish liquid that turns purple on the spoon, I'm going to just finally order a PH meter and try to solve this thing before moving onto my first Mimosa extraction that should give far less problems. The goo you want solidifies right? This oil has to be plant oils.

 

[DreaMTripper]

I say again....Acacia confusa often has a high proportion of NMT, NMT is not a 'plant oil' as such..NMT can nullify the effects of DMT either through some sort of symbiosis or competition for receptors in the brain, or both..some people feel/experience very little from NMT.
If you have back-salted/ done a mini-acid base then I repeat it is extremely unlikely to be acacia essential oils as they do not form a salt..
acacia floribunda ...yellow oil
acacia longifolia...clear oil with sporadic white crystals
acacia verticilata..yellow oil
acacia confusa..clear oil

 

[seasonsintheabyss]

So what exactly is "back-salting"?? I always see this step mentioned with the mini a/b but is it a separate step?. I actually left out the mini a/b altogether because of people saying it was unnecessary if you want to yield goo, I could perform one on all of my pulls I still have the original pulls that didn't yield.

 

[Psybin]

So what exactly is "back-salting"?? I always see this step mentioned with the mini a/b but is it a separate step?. I actually left out the mini a/b altogether because of people saying it was unnecessary if you want to yield goo, I could perform one on all of my pulls I still have the original pulls that didn't yield.

Back-salting is where you convert your crude freebase product back to a salt with something like fumaric or citric acid, and then freebase that and do pulls to get crystals. It basically separates plant fats and oils from the actives, and can help clean up goo with a lot of NMT.

Here's a common tek that uses back-salting, referred to in the tek as a "mini A/B".

 

[Tryptallmine]

I say again....Acacia confusa often has a high proportion of NMT

I've often pondered that. None of the A.Confusa extracts have ever been as potent as M.Hostilis, A.Maidenii or A.Obtusifolia.

 

[shanedudddy2]

I got a bit of yellow oil from an extract of my Acuminata phyllodes.
I just smeared metal mesh vapour genie disk in the oil, and it is definitely active oil it's not hard at all, and very smooth.

 

[acacian]

in my experience - at least in the case of using shellite - the purer plants are the only ones i've managed to get needly crystaline extracts with (i.e crystals that scrape up to a hard consistency rather than an oil or wax), but my understanding is that differen't solvents accompanied by certain purification methods can result in 'solid' extracts despite the presence of numerous alkaloids...some of the various extracts nen has obtained for example seem testament to this idea..

the plants with multi alkaloid extracts may not crystalise all that well with shellite, whether you perform defat/double a/b and further alkaline washes or not - I am not sure why this is.

if the tree you are using doesn't contain a fairly pure dmt profile its highly likely your result will be an oil or wax.. this is by no means an issue when it comes to the experiential aspect of the extract, but I empathize with some people's frustrations in regards to scraping, weighing and storing extracts. most of my experimentation of late has been with various oils from local acacias and I find them to be just as awesome as the crystaline extracts as far as effects are concerned...
shellite works well with some trees but with the more complex species I really wouldn't bother with it. i always end up finding it more effort than it is worth