Amanita Muscaria -- With or Without Lemon Juice?

[Schahin92]

So I used to take dried caps just tiny amounts, and had a good experience. but then I started having negative experiences whenever I took a little bit more than Microdose.

I cannot say if it was because of the different potencies in the Amanitas but I decided It could have been the Ibutenic Acid in it so I started making teas.
Now with tea I would like to have a method than doesnt get me that drunk feeling but a clean feeling.

So does normal boiling in water convert the Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol too? I'd like to know how ancient northern tribes prepared the Tea when they had no knowledge of Ph-Lowering and the chemical reactions. But I dislike the Siberian method with the Shamans Urine, dont know how one can go through that.

 

[blig-blug]

So does normal boiling in water convert the Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol too?

As far as I know yes, but it needs some time boiling.

I'd like to know how ancient northern tribes prepared the Tea

I'm not sure they made a tea, I believe they ate them. However apparently they were dried close to a fire, and therefore heated up.

But I dislike the Siberian method with the Shamans Urine

The reason they did that is that A. muscaria is actually rare in Siberia. It was not available to most people, and that was a way to use a single dose for more than one person. That method is not attested anywhere else as far as I know.

 

[Schahin92]

As far as I know yes, but it needs some time boiling.


I'm not sure they made a tea, I believe they ate them. However apparently they were dried close to a fire, and therefore heated up.

So if fire makes it ok to eat it, so normal boiling should make it ok to eat?

Its because in all the Amanita Groups people always talk about the PH-Lowering method, and I wonder why.

 

[blig-blug]

So if fire makes it ok to eat it, so normal boiling should make it ok to eat?

I think yes. That's how I've done it in the past.

about the PH-Lowering method

I don't know that method, but I boiled them in acidic (lower pH) water. It may be just that. So yes, you can use lemon as you say, or also vinegar. I left them boiling for quite some time, IIRC at least 30 minutes.

There are other users here more experienced with Amanita muscaria, so hopefully they'll chime in too. I used the above method and it worked well for me.

 

[dreamer042]

Translated and summarized from this paper: Change in Ibotenic Acid and Muscimol Contents in Amanita muscaria during Drying, Storing or Cooking

Temperature	Ibotenic Acid (IBO) remaining	Muscimol (MUS) remaining
Fresh (control)	100%	100%
40 °C	65%	620%
50 °C	64%	575%
60 °C	54%	650%
80 °C	17%	640%
100 °C	12%	290%
120 °C	0.5%	50%

pH	IBO change rate	MUS formation rate	Relative magnitude of change	What the paper explicitly shows
4.0	Very rapid decrease	Very rapid increase	Largest change observed	Steep IBO loss and steep MUS rise
5.0	Rapid decrease	Rapid increase	Slightly less than pH 4.0	Similar pattern, slightly slower
5.98	Moderate decrease	Moderate increase	Clearly reduced vs acidic	Slower slopes than pH 4–5
7.0	Moderate–slow decrease	Moderate–slow increase	Smaller overall change	Near-neutral dampens conversion
8.0	Slow decrease	Minimal increase	Minor change	Conversion strongly suppressed
9.0	Very slow decrease	Very little increase	Near-stable	Curves nearly flat
10.0	Minimal change	Minimal change	Least change observed	IBO and MUS largely stable

Condition	Drying method	Duration	IBO (ppm)	MUS (ppm)	IBO remaining (%)	MUS remaining (%)
Fresh (control)	None	—	462	8	100%	100%
Sunlight-I	Sun-dried outdoors	3 days	216	96	47%	1200%
Sunlight-II	Sun-dried outdoors	11 days	36	33	8%	413%
Heater-III	Dried near oil heater	2 days	58	31	13%	388%

Tsunoda K, Inoue N, Aoyagi Y, Sugahara T. Change in ibotenic acid and muscimol contents in Amanita muscaria during drying, storing or cooking. Food Hygiene and Safety Science. 1993;34(2):153–160.


My Amanita Day Protocol: For one person, combine 1.5 to 2.5 grams of dried Amanita muscaria caps, crushed or powdered, with water at a 10:1 water-to-mushroom ratio, adjust the pH to 4.2 using citric acid or lemon juice, then heat the mixture to 85°C and maintain that temperature for 100 minutes with a lid on; after cooling, strain out the solids and drink the liquid for a muscimol-rich, ibotenic-acid-free experience.

 

[Voidmatrix]

For one person, combine 1.5 to 2.5 grams of dried Amanita muscaria caps, crushed or powdered, with water at a 10:1 water-to-mushroom ratio, adjust the pH to 4.2 using citric acid or lemon juice, then heat the mixture to 85°C and maintain that temperature for 100 minutes with a lid on; after cooling, strain out the solids and drink the liquid for a muscimol-rich, ibotenic-acid-free experience.

What level of experience does this commonly bring on for you? And does body weight seem to be a factor or is it potentially not, as is potentially not with psilocin?

Optimal dosing for psilocybin pharmacotherapy: Considering weight-adjusted and fixed dosing approaches - PMC

Growing evidence suggests psilocybin, a naturally occurring psychedelic, is a safe and promising pharmacotherapy for treatment of mood and substance use disorders when administered as part of a structured intervention. In most trials to date, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One love

 

[blig-blug]

adjust the pH to 4.2

Why 4.2 specifically?

 

[Schahin92]

Translated and summarized from this paper: Change in Ibotenic Acid and Muscimol Contents in Amanita muscaria during Drying, Storing or Cooking

Temperature	Ibotenic Acid (IBO) remaining	Muscimol (MUS) remaining
Fresh (control)	100%	100%
40 °C	65%	620%
50 °C	64%	575%
60 °C	54%	650%
80 °C	17%	640%
100 °C	12%	290%
120 °C	0.5%	50%

pH	IBO change rate	MUS formation rate	Relative magnitude of change	What the paper explicitly shows
4.0	Very rapid decrease	Very rapid increase	Largest change observed	Steep IBO loss and steep MUS rise
5.0	Rapid decrease	Rapid increase	Slightly less than pH 4.0	Similar pattern, slightly slower
5.98	Moderate decrease	Moderate increase	Clearly reduced vs acidic	Slower slopes than pH 4–5
7.0	Moderate–slow decrease	Moderate–slow increase	Smaller overall change	Near-neutral dampens conversion
8.0	Slow decrease	Minimal increase	Minor change	Conversion strongly suppressed
9.0	Very slow decrease	Very little increase	Near-stable	Curves nearly flat
10.0	Minimal change	Minimal change	Least change observed	IBO and MUS largely stable

Condition	Drying method	Duration	IBO (ppm)	MUS (ppm)	IBO remaining (%)	MUS remaining (%)
Fresh (control)	None	—	462	8	100%	100%
Sunlight-I	Sun-dried outdoors	3 days	216	96	47%	1200%
Sunlight-II	Sun-dried outdoors	11 days	36	33	8%	413%
Heater-III	Dried near oil heater	2 days	58	31	13%	388%

Tsunoda K, Inoue N, Aoyagi Y, Sugahara T. Change in ibotenic acid and muscimol contents in Amanita muscaria during drying, storing or cooking. Food Hygiene and Safety Science. 1993;34(2):153–160.


My Amanita Day Protocol: For one person, combine 1.5 to 2.5 grams of dried Amanita muscaria caps, crushed or powdered, with water at a 10:1 water-to-mushroom ratio, adjust the pH to 4.2 using citric acid or lemon juice, then heat the mixture to 85°C and maintain that temperature for 100 minutes with a lid on; after cooling, strain out the solids and drink the liquid for a muscimol-rich, ibotenic-acid-free experience.

Have you tried consuming it with no lemon juice as mere boiling?

I wonder if some Ibotenic Acid is a bad thing, Many just eat the dried caps.

 

[ommani]

I’ve done a ~2 hour decoction of an oz, and poured the tea into ice cube trays for easy dosing at 1g/ice cube, which worked well.

However, what I typically do is just weigh out the amount I want, break up the mushrooms and steep in freshly boiled water for 10-20 minutes, which also works well IME. Straining the mushrooms makes for a lighter tea, whereas keeping them in the tea makes it stronger, suggesting that the basic infusion method does not get all the actives.

I presume the age of the mushrooms and the temperature at which they were dried determines the ratio of ibotenic acid to muscimol. In any case, I don’t typically use any lemon juice or other acid, and have found my teas to be consistently relaxing without much/any noticeable stimulation or toxic-feeling effects (at doses of around 100-2000mg).