Anyone else ever consider that extracting DMT is going to cause DMT plants to be made illegal?

[acolon_5]

^ this was their K2 product. They no longer carried it when the raid took place. They had gotten a slap on the wrist for selling JWH cannabinoids on leaf....

Even so, the JWH cannabinoids are not illegal, they cannot even be concidered analougs because their chemical structure is unlike any illegal checmical. Unlike say, 4-ho-dipt and 4-po-dmt.

 

[Pokey]

From the Controlled Substances Act of 1970:

(c) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation, which contains any quantity of the following hallucinogenic substances, or which contains any of their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers whenever the existence of such salts, isomers, and salts of isomers is possible within the specific chemical designation:

(1) 3,4-methylenedioxy amphetamine.

(2) 5-methoxy-3,4-methylenedioxy amphetamine.

(3) 3,4,5-trimethoxy amphetamine.

(4) Bufotenine.

(5) Diethyltryptamine.

(6) Dimethyltryptamine.

(7) 4-methyl-2,5-diamethoxyamphetamine.

(8) Ibogaine.

(9) Lysergic acid diethylamide.

(10) Marihuana.

(11) Mescaline.

(12) Peyote.

(13) N-ethyl-3-piperidyl benzilate.

(14) N-methyl-3-piperidyl benzilate.

(15) Psilocybin.

(16) Psilocyn.

(17) Tetrahydrocannabinols.

Hmmmm.....
Looks like they already "illegalized" any material containing DMT (and a bunch of others) in 1970.

Dang.

Pokey

note: I didn't put the smiley by ibogaine

 

[acolon_5]

^ true, but if this were actually enforced this would criminalize having almost any plant or animal. So many plants and animals contain trace amounts of bufo and DMT. Do we lock up everyone that knows that they themselves contain DMT?

So prosecution of this might be a bit more difficult than say if someone had a bag filled with pure mescaline, or xtal DMT.

Still you are correct, they do not need to put Mimosa or San Pedro on any list, they've already got it covered.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Still you are correct, they do not need to put Mimosa or San Pedro on any list, they've already got it covered.

Exactly...it makes this thread a tad irrelevant (again I point to BBB). What we need to be focused on is maintaining a low profile. Flagging all those youtube videos a while ago was great and if we continue to remain vigilant, we should be able to keep under the radar. If they're gonna come after us, they've already got the ammunition of the laws, all we can do is deprive them of the ammunition of irresponsible circumstances and public outcry.

I echo Acolon's sentiment that the Meth/prescription pill epidemic is currently the main focus of drug agencies, as it should be. Also, I have a hard time believing that if something motivates the DEA or FDA to come after home extractors, they're gonna ignore people drinking ayahuasca...it just wouldn't make sense. At the point where you decide to divert time spent killing rats to swatting flies, you don't become picky about which flies you swat.

SB

 

[Virola78]

NO.

it is impossible for all sources of dmt to be made illegal.

please don't feed the hate machine with fear. fear will get us nowhere.

growing plants is a great idea. gardening is fun.
not sure if i could get bainisteriopsis to root at 43deg lat!

Thanks for refreshing.

Indeed im looking forward to extracting DMT from desert gras. Hopefully some will develop a good tek soon.
When the grasses are grown, in little terrarium along some cactus under LED or so, then government can kiss my ass.

"In ancient times, those skilled in warfare make themselves invincible and then wait for the enemy to become vulnerable." -SunTzu

 

[g13juggalo]

It's not all sources of DMT being made illegal I'm worried about.
Its ANY plants being made illegal.

If mimosa is made illegal I honestly wouldn't give a shit that people can't get DMT from it. I'd give a shit that now another plant is illegal.

 

[Entropymancer]

The government is going to try to make mimosa, psychotria, and other plants illegal one day.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I really hope someone has pointed out by now: These plants are already illegal. They have been since 1970. It has been our good fortune that the DEA (who is well aware that the plants are illegal) have elected not to enforce the law at all.

It's possible that people extracting DMT will cause them to start enforcing the law. It's possible that the DEA will perceive the Kansas police raid on BBB as "forcing their hand" and they may start enforcing the law for that reason.

But don't for a minute make the mistake of believing that the plants are currently legal (not any more than psilocybian mushrooms are legal). A quick read of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 should assure you of that.

 

[Pokey]

^^ Ummm... I pointed it out twice in this thread. People see what they want to see, etc...

Pokey

 

[Entropymancer]

Oh, yep, I see that now. I knew someone must've brought it up by now, I just saw that last comment where g13 is talking as though they're currently legal and it made me wonder...

What we need is a cop and a DA on our side, so they can arrest someone for something truly absurd, prosecute the case, and force the courts to recognize the absurdity of the law. Until then no court hearing a case on it will ever recognize that the law is absurd, because its constitutionally has been implicitly upheld by the fact that the supreme court has heard cases where the defendant was charged under the CSA.

 

[69ron]

From the Controlled Substances Act of 1970:

(c) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation, which contains any quantity of the following hallucinogenic substances, or which contains any of their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers whenever the existence of such salts, isomers, and salts of isomers is possible within the specific chemical designation:

(1) 3,4-methylenedioxy amphetamine.

(2) 5-methoxy-3,4-methylenedioxy amphetamine.

(3) 3,4,5-trimethoxy amphetamine.

(4) Bufotenine.

(5) Diethyltryptamine.

(6) Dimethyltryptamine.

(7) 4-methyl-2,5-diamethoxyamphetamine.

(8) Ibogaine.

(9) Lysergic acid diethylamide.

(10) Marihuana.

(11) Mescaline.

(12) Peyote.

(13) N-ethyl-3-piperidyl benzilate.

(14) N-methyl-3-piperidyl benzilate.

(15) Psilocybin.

(16) Psilocyn.

(17) Tetrahydrocannabinols.

Hmmmm.....
Looks like they already "illegalized" any material containing DMT (and a bunch of others) in 1970.

Dang.

Pokey

note: I didn't put the smiley by ibogaine

Well I just got back from Wal-mart and found LSD derivatives and mescaline being openly sold in the form of cacti and morning glories, and you don’t even need to be 18 to buy them.

This is all a joke.

With so many places selling such items, how can one expect these laws to be upheld?

I found San Pedro at around 20 local shops that sell cacti. I found morning glories at about 50 local shops selling seeds. This was everything from mom and pop stores all the way up to places like Wal-mart which are all in direct violation of that law.

It is ridiculous. The law has been broken by hundreds of retailers for decades!

 

[Entropymancer]

As I've said many times in these discussions, it's a matter of scienter. If you don't know they contain scheduled drugs, you can't be convicted. So while it's not precisely legal for these things to be sold and grown all over, 99% of people aren't precisely breaking the law either. Just as the authorities have turned a blind eye to our less-than-licit use of the plants, so do they turn a blind eye to Walmart (& their customers') substantially-more-licit use of the same.

 

[69ron]

Yes Entropymancer, that is obvious.

Even though the law is black and white, you can still get around it. That's why we have lawyers and judges.

The key to selling entheogens is to NOT mention that they are entheogens. If you sell them the way Wal-mart does, the FDA will not take notice. But if you make a site and talk about entheogenic usage of such plants, and then sell them on your site, that's a whole different thing. In that case you are knowingly selling drugs. That's a big difference. That's why its BBB and not Wal-mart facing drug charges for selling the exact same items.

 

[Beloved Child]

I agree with those that have said not all sources can be banned....there are just too many things which contain DMT.

As well, I agree that it's the idiots selling it as a party drug that will cause the most trouble...whether they grow it or buy it, the government always wants a piece of something that makes money. And even if it were criminalized, do you really think it would be impossible to find? I can still find many illegal substances in under an hour...

Third, fear mongering gets us nowhere. Rather than stratifying into two classes (one who buys and one who grows) we should be banding together to bring awareness of the positive aspects; and yes maybe even try to find some way to research DMT.

Last, I can't speak for anyone else, but being preached to always gets my back up. If you really think that we should all grow it, it may have been better just to point out your opinion, gently, and tell people the benefits without all the judgemental crap. Especially considering you are in the nursery, and let's face it, many of us are so new at everything, the last thing we are thinking about it growing.

I believe that there are many ways of helping/teaching others, without coming across sounding like your way is the only way.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I just get really annoyed when people think they are so much smarter than everyone else.


~BC

 

[quiksilver98]

Whether you are growing these plants and then creating ayahuasca or extracting alkaloids it does make a difference in the face of the law. As soon as you being cooking it it is considered processing for human consumption making it automatically illegal. Thats the law in Canada anyways.

I am a little confused as too how in US they illegalized those plants ut yet htey are openly sold by taboo vendors and off the internet without much problems with the exception of bouncing bear botanicals.

 

[Entropymancer]

The way the situation works in the US is that our federal authorities have decided they don't care about us buying and selling these plants. It's illegal, they've just simply chosen not to enforce the law, so vendors sell the products without much fear of federal retribution.

In the case of BBB, the state of Kansas decided that they did care, so they seized the materials and arrested Jon Sloan, the owner. Now, unless Jon can prove that he had no idea the plants he was selling contained controlled substances, he'll be going to jail for a long time (even though the plants are illegal, you cannot be convicted unless you knew they contained controlled substances). But with any luck, the federal authorities will continue to turn a blind eye, and the remaining ethno vendors will get smart and make sure there's no indication they have any idea that their products contain controlled substances.

 

[gibran2]

Here's something I found on a DEA website

Mimosa hostilis and similar natural plant materials are not formally controlled (by name) in the United States; however, they are controlled (Schedule I) if they are shown to contain DMT or other controlled hallucinogens. Despite their controlled status, a number of DMT-containing natural products, including Mimosa hostilis, are openly marketed on the Internet.

The key phrase is “if they are shown to contain DMT…”. This suggests, at least to me, that plants and “natural plant materials” are not controlled. However, if someone were to get him/herself into a situation where law enforcement authorities can legally confiscate and test these plant materials, and if the materials are then found to contain a controlled substance, then the materials become controlled.

So my simple interpretation is this: these plant materials are not controlled unless they test positive for controlled substances, and under ordinary circumstances (such as buying/selling on the internet), authorities have no authority to sample and test these materials.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Here's something I found on a DEA website

Mimosa hostilis and similar natural plant materials are not formally controlled (by name) in the United States; however, they are controlled (Schedule I) if they are shown to contain DMT or other controlled hallucinogens. Despite their controlled status, a number of DMT-containing natural products, including Mimosa hostilis, are openly marketed on the Internet.

The key phrase is “if they are shown to contain DMT…”. This suggests, at least to me, that plants and “natural plant materials” are not controlled.

yea...but all these plant materials WILL test positive for controlled substances if tested...so your inference is incorrect, they are treated as controlled (as entropymancer has reiterated multiple times) the moment you know those chemicals are in them. Buying and selling on the internet has nothing to do with it, what has been hashed, re-hashed, and bludgeoned to death is the fact that BBB was "flaunting" the fact that these substances contained psychoactive alkaloids, thus signalling to the FDA that they knew what was in their plants (This also means that if the cops kick in your front door, find some of your dmt and then find plant material, they're probably gonna hit you with all of that as well, cuz you clearly knew what was in the plants). Make sense?

And Pokey, I too have pointed out the same thing multiple times in this thread, it seems we have a lot of selective readers who are choosing to ignore the words staring them straight in the face...I hope that people and vendors snap out of these delusions and take the proper steps to protect themselves.

peace
SB

 

[Shpongle]

Don't be silly, experimenting with plants has led to a lot of great discoveries in science, and one bad movie starring Sean Connery. Did you ever see the medicine man? If he weren't out in the rain forest with some indigenous tribe, then he would have never have found the cure for cancer. I love that movie.
On another note, the government.....there are like two hundred different governments on this planet, and not all of them are opposed to entheogenic legal recreation.
So I mean I think that places like the nexus and people like this are awesome and there should be no hostility about it.

 

[gibran2]

yea...but all these plant materials WILL test positive for controlled substances if tested...so your inference is incorrect, they are treated as controlled (as entropymancer has reiterated multiple times) the moment you know those chemicals are in them.

I agree with you on the point that – “the moment you know those (scheduled) chemicals are in them” they (plant sources of scheduled substances) are considered to be scheduled.

However, I don’t necessarily agree that such plant materials will test positive for scheduled substances if tested. One reason is because of the natural variability of such substances in plant materials. For example, it’s possible, though unlikely, that a sample of MHRB naturally contains no DMT at all.

Looking at it from a customer’s point of view, if we use MHRB as an example, suppose someone orders MHRB from an online vendor with the intent of extracting DMT from it. Let’s say the vendor is very dishonest, and ships some other kind of root bark that resembles MHRB but contains no DMT or other scheduled substances. The buyer attempts to extract DMT, but is unable to do so.

At some point, government authorities gain access to the vendor’s records, and see that this particular customer purchased MHRB. Can the government prove that the customer indeed received MHRB? Can they prove that the customer knew the MHRB contained DMT? (In this case, it didn’t because it wasn’t MHRB) Can the government prove that the customer extracted DMT from the product?

And the same argument could be used by vendors: Does a vendor know that the MHRB he receives from his supplier contains DMT? Unless the vendor has the product tested, the vendor doesn’t know.

 

[quiksilver98]

Okay very good points but we have to remember DMT is in more plants than it is not and is actually in our bodies right now as I type this post. So what now....