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Ayahuasca or pure spice?

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PartArctor

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The more I look around the forums the more I yearn for a true experience but I'm wondering which way to make my first steps. I'm really asking for some conjecture and over all opinion for where to start. I'm fully prepared to go through the twelve hours plus brewing time for some true Ayahuasca and I'm equally prepared to spend the time working through an extraction, effort is not the problem. Its more that I'm anxious as to what I will see and feel, I know there are pro's and cons for each. With pure spice (smoked of course) I will be back to baseline in thirty minuets but I might see some of the most earth shattering things ever known with no for warning. With Ayahuasca I will be out for six hours or more but with (what McKenna describes at least) gentler visions and I don't mind going through the purge. So what would more experienced members recommend? What would you consider to be the better route for ones first time. If there is no over all consensus then I will do more research and some personal soul searching but I'd appreciate some guidance as to what might be a better positive introduction.
 
Yeah, thats what I mean I don't want to over do it on either, I'm not sure whether to brew Ayahuasca and slowly increase the dosage of that until I reach a stage I feel comfortable with and will eventualy learn to accept the full effects. Or to do the same with pure spice, which seems to have little learning curve, either hyperspace or reality.
 
PartArctor said:
I will do more research and some personal soul searching but I'd appreciate some guidance as to what might be a better positive introduction.

That sounds like a good plan to do some soul searching. To me they both have their own destinct effects. Read reports from people and look into what relates to what you are trying to get out of this.

Heck, you might even find yourself doing both, or maybe not.

Soul searching sounds good.
 
hard choice :)

In your introduction post you said you had experience with mushrooms. I think ayahuasca will be more similar to it.. Smoke dmt will really, as Pandora well put it, "knock you off your metaphysical socks" :D But to be honest even if you take aya before, you still cant be totally prepared for the smoked dmt. The inverse is true too, though, because of the duration of ayahuasca, it can also be many times more challenging than smoked dmt, specially in what concerns a (good) 'forced' self-reflection and personal lessons (at least in my experience).

Also there is the nausea one has to deal with when taking aya and rarely with smoked dmt. This nausea is also something one can learn from IMO. For me, it is like a reminder of my own mortality, allowing me to appreciate when the difficulties are gone. Another aspect is if one really purges, at least symbolically it can feel like getting rid of negative energies/tensions inside of us.

But yeah it's hard to suggest one, sorry, I think you'll have amazing experiences either way. Just take care of setting, start with low doses (specially with ayahuasca.. With dmt for some people it might even be good to aim for a breakthrough in the first time).

Good luck and tell us how it went!
 
Great replies, as it's usual here in the Nexus. However, I'm just going to throw in my own point of view.

Just because smoked DMT is very intense in a short time frame it does not mean it is the most enlightening. As you will see if browsing around the forum, many people just ceased smoking spice, and not all because they got "burned". Many of them as well as several of my acquaintances have trouble making meaning out of smoked spice.

Now with Ayahuasca most everyone will get something out of it.Perhaps it's the knowledge that comes from the vine, or even the fact that it lasts way longer than 5 minutes so you have time to digest your experiences. And, as has been said, Ayahuasca is not weaker than smoked spice. It just comes in gradually, giving your soul time to get some hold of the experience. My friend's strongest ever entheogenic session was with Ayahuasca. Nothing, nor even changa or pure DMT comes close.

It's of course your choice, but you may have more control on how far you want to go with Aya. What my friend usually recommends to people who are starting in the path is a strong Ayahuasca experience for their first session but with people around, either themselves taking the Sacrament or not. This way first timers are able to appreciate the full glory of the Cosmic Soul on their first try and feeling safe and secure at the same time.
 
Personally, I would say ayawaska.

I have stopped recommending vaped DMT to people, I now think it's something that is best done once a person has already journeyed with aya.

Why? Firstly, because after an ayawaska experience, I believe it's guaranteed that the person will approach vaped DMT with the right attitude, and will have some feeling of what to expect. It is impossible I believe for any newcomer to not underestimate the awe and power of vaped DMT, because the experience is just so unimaginable beforehand. The very thought of that feeling of being ripped out of this dimension and into hyperspace almost immediately even now makes Dreamer want to drop to his knees and bow down to the universe, no joke... and he hasn't vaped to breakthrough in 6 months, maybe approaching a year now. I believe that once you have vaped DMT, the molecule is woven into your very soul and will never leave you. That's just my opinion, I'd be interested if anyone thinks otherwise.

Secondly, because I believe the ayawaska experience to be more useful and healing, as well as gentler up and down. And the visionary stage is only actually an hour long if you've taken a sensible first-timer dose, with a gentle rise and fall, not 6 hours.

I now see vaped DMT as a curiosity and 'next step' for psychonauts who want to really push it, with aya more for general, healing and beginner use. Dreamer started with oral but switched to vaped for a while to avoid introspection and concentrate on energising himself (attempting to cure the lingering effects of suspected chronic fatigue syndrome, and it seemed to work). He is glad he started with oral, and he is now back using oral alone and infrequently now his work with vaped DMT is done.

I think that aya is more likely to give you something positive to take with you if you try it and decide not to do it again. Whereas, I suspect that the people who vape DMT for the first time and don't like it and are scared off perhaps haven't learnt anything, and these people are probably then unlikely to try aya, so an opportunity for positive growth is then lost.

Dreamer's first experience was with 5g rue and 12.5g MHRB (mimosa hostilis root bark), and he found the intensity to be absolutely perfect. That's a medium dose- I think for a strong one people go up to 25g, although personally I don't think I'd want to go up that far. People say aya is gentler than rue, so I would say much better to start with aya. The most common aya experience is I believe with aya and chacruna, but unfortunately weak chacruna can make for disappointment. Though I have never done this myself, if Dreamer were having his first time al over again, he would go for 50g ayawaska with 12.5g MHRB. I have heard it said by a few people that they prefer MHRB, and certainly Dreamer's best experience to date was with MHRB. Shockingly he actually hasn't journeyed fully that many times orally though because he has been hampered by weak chacruna on more than one occasion, in fact he is yet to have a decent chacruna experience unfortunately, though it's in the pipeline and coming up soon. So, I'd be interested to hear what people think of my suspicion that aya+MHRB is the way to go.

This is all opinion, of course, and I am by no means experienced compared to most people on here.
 
If you have taken large doses of mushrooms..then you should be able to handle a full dose of ayahuasca. Mushrooms are about the only one that are on par with ayahuasca IMO(unless you smoke changa over and over in a session), and the only things that can prepare you for it. Smoked DMT/changa is so fast, that for me, even if it does get hectic I dont have time to panic like with mushrooms or ayahuasca, which is not a bad thing..mushrooms just prep you better for oral DMT though I think, and vice versa.
 
ohayoco said:
Dreamer's first experience was with 5g rue and 12.5g MHRB (mimosa hostilis root bark), and he found the intensity to be absolutely perfect. That's a medium dose- I think for a strong one people go up to 25g, although personally I don't think I'd want to go up that far.

That is most certainly NOT a medium dose!..That is very large dose. 12.5 grams of mimosa is alot..I have had rediculously strong experiences that were way rougher than smoked DMT at 5 grams of mimosa with 50g caapi..12.5g, thats 250mg of fullrange spice in there! 5 grams of rue is also alot! I usually dont goover 4 grams of mimosa in my brews..that 80mg of fullrange spice and thats enough for me.

Id say start with about 3 grams of mimosa..and then work your way up. I dont know of anyone that goes anywhere near 25g of mimosa..in the ayahuasca section there should be a whole thread dedicated to ayahuasca by manic minxx, and she covers the mimosa dosages there in more detail..there is good info there shes an ayahuasca wizard. I suggest you read it PartArctor.

Personally I would start off with a good dose of vine, and only a small ammount of light. VIne only brews can be very powerful and visionary themselves.

To quote ms_manic_minxx..

" Prepared identically to Caapi, Mimosa can become active at .5g, and I would never, ever recommend a dose beyond 3g without EXTENSIVE personal experimentation and perfection of brewing techniques. Very little goes a long way. Less is more, and too much light will bring panic. People have used the word "leash" with this plant.
-Experiential notes: The spirit of Mimosa is extremely vocal about global justice issues. Lots of blues, greens, and reds, in color. No "rainforest presence," as with leaves and vine. When approached in appropriate doses, great mysteries of body, birth, and being are readily explored. Those familiar with jungle spice will find themselves very close to home."
 
I think the ultimate if you can handle it and are super careful on dosage is Caapi tea then vaped spice about an hour after. The spice dosage becomes ultra ultra critical at this point as you can be sent so far out it feels like you will never come back. I've had the most amazing experiences with this combo and the sickness is minimal or non existant. I have to emphasize the importance of careful dosage measurement. I made a miscalculation on the spice myself a while back and it was nothing less than terrifying.

It is possible to experiment with the aya tea as well. Alot of times I have made a pretty mild version of the tea and once combined with the spice it can be the most amazing journey. The caapi seems to ad the teaching element to the experience . Like everyone has said the plain vaped spice can be overwhelming and confusing. Not without its plusses though, plain spice is something to check out for sure.

I think the real teacher and the deepest potencial of consciouness expansion is in the ayahuasca vine itself. The DMT is the illumination as they say in brazil.

Hold on to your hats when you start using aya though it is some seriously powerful stuff that will change your life.
 
fractal enchantment said:
That is most certainly NOT a medium dose!..That is very large dose. 12.5 grams of mimosa is alot..I have had rediculously strong experiences that were way rougher than smoked DMT at 5 grams of mimosa with 50g caapi..12.5g, thats 250mg of fullrange spice in there! 5 grams of rue is also alot!
Haha, well that's what Dreamer was told by the vendor at the time, guess he was a hardhead! But 12.5 turned out to be exactly what Dreamer was after, it was a wonderful experience. It wasn't THAT strong, he wasn't in hyperspace like with vaped DMT... it was more like the entities visiting him on earth, than him flying off to visit the entities.

I agree that 5g of rue is excessive, that wasn't a recommendation juts a statement of the facts of his first time, again on the hardhead vendor's advice! I'm advising aya not rue. Dreamer actually ate the leftover rue plant matter as well as the brew, crazy toxic headspins!! It was only uncomfortable before and after the MHRB was active. I hear that 3g of rue brew is considered sufficient for people who want to go that route, yes?

So does ayawaska make mhrb more powerful than when it's with rue? Or do you have some really potent mhrb?
 
Im not sure how my mimosa compares to others..it seems to be potent mimosa..was your mimosa powdered? if its not fully powdered maybe it doest give up as much spice so easily, i dunno. All I know is that i dont think id drink 12 grams of my mimosa..and you couldnt pay me enough to drink 25g!
 
hmmm interesting. ill keep that in mind.

maybe it is the powdered vs. shredded. i used shredded and had a medium experience at 8 grams of mimosa
 
I didn't have a chance to read the responses but I would sugest starting with Aya. It will give you a good feel for the pant spirit without blasting you to the moon.
 
fractal enchantment said:
Im not sure how my mimosa compares to others..it seems to be potent mimosa..was your mimosa powdered? if its not fully powdered maybe it doest give up as much spice so easily, i dunno. All I know is that i dont think id drink 12 grams of my mimosa..and you couldnt pay me enough to drink 25g!
Mimosa also differs in potency, so it's both plausible that 12 grams of mimosa gives a medium aya experience and that you have a good experience with 5 grams.

somewhere around 10 grams is about the average dose.

But i think that fractal enchantment might also be quite sensitive for ayahuasca and that could play a role as well.
 
I strongly prefer ayahuasca over vaporised DMT.
I've tried vaped DMT once and i just didn't like it as much as i like ayahuasca. With aya it was more or less love at first sight for me.

Everytime i take aya, it tells me what to do in my life and it never lies to me, while vaped DMT might tell you a lot as well, but it's just hard to decipher.

I think i'm not the only person with this view.
 
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