Basic Solution Dissolves Coffee Filter - Harmalas Extraction

[melotikaci]

I'm extracting harmalas from Syrian Rue according to this tek which states that in step ten basic solution needs to be filtered with fine filter to keep alkaloids.

I found out that if the process takes a bit long then the filter just gets teared down by the strong base.

Going to use a t-shirt instead.

Has anyone had this problem before?

P.S. I'm using lye, not soda carb.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Use Sodium Carbonate, it's what i've always used and i've had no issues. Sodium Carbonate is a good base for both Harmalas and DMT, there's no need for Lye imo.

 

[Jees]

...I found out that if the process takes a bit long then ...

What is 'a bit long' please?

 

[melotikaci]

...I found out that if the process takes a bit long then ...

What is 'a bit long' please?

~30 seconds and more.
I poured a solution in filter and it got a hole before all of the lequid went through, and that wasn't a deffective piece, happened three times in a row, even with a two stacked up together

 

[melotikaci]

Use Sodium Carbonate, it's what i've always used and i've had no issues. Sodium Carbonate is a good base for both Harmalas and DMT, there's no need for Lye imo.

Well, next time I'll have to.
I feel more comfortable with caustic soda, dont understand all the hate and fear it gets. Its quite safe if one isn't being reckless.

 

[Sakkadelic]

The freebase will go through the t-shirt, if you decide to try it make sure it is 100% cotton

 

[pitubo]

Use Sodium Carbonate, it's what i've always used and i've had no issues. Sodium Carbonate is a good base for both Harmalas and DMT, there's no need for Lye imo.

Well, next time I'll have to.

You can filter lye solutions with paper filters, but only very dilute lye solutions. In order to dilute a too strong lye solution, let the freebases precipitate to the bottom and carefully decant the supernatant solution. Then add more water and let the freebase fall to the bottom again, decant and add water again. After repeating this a few times, the lye concentration has decreased down to a level to make it filterable.

I feel more comfortable with caustic soda, dont understand all the hate and fear it gets. Its quite safe if one isn't being reckless.

Since we cannot assume that everyone is aware of the dangers and knows the correct ways to handle it, there is a real risk of recklessness, even if not intently reckless.

The freebase will go through the t-shirt, if you decide to try it make sure it is 100% cotton

Cotton is a cellulose fiber, just like paper is. Strong lye solutions will also affect or even damage the cotton fibers.

 

[Jees]

...I found out that if the process takes a bit long then ...

What is 'a bit long' please?

~30 seconds and more.
I poured a solution in filter and it got a hole before all of the lequid went through, and that wasn't a deffective piece, happened three times in a row, even with a two stacked up together

30 sec looks too short to dissolve a coffee filter I think. Honestly I've never had such a problem, usually I add lye to pH 12 max 12.5. With this I was unable to destroy any coffee filter paper so far. But one has to fold the seems, I don't know if you do that? Without folding seems then the seem goes open. Maybe it's that?

Look at 1 min 40 sec that is what I mean.

Maybe you knew this already but had to mention.

And I second pitubo's advice to settle/decant rigorously before using a coffee filter.

 

[Sakkadelic]

The freebase will go through the t-shirt, if you decide to try it make sure it is 100% cotton

Cotton is a cellulose fiber, just like paper is. Strong lye solutions will also affect or even damage the cotton fibers.

I researched lye and cotton before and lye is used in the mercerization of cotton which from what i understood makes it stronger instead of degrading it, that's why i assumed that using lye on 100% cotton is safe but maybe dilute solution as you mentioned above

 

[pitubo]

Honestly I've never had such a problem, usually I add lye to pH 12 max 12.5. With this I was unable to destroy any coffee filter paper so far. But one has to fold the seems, I don't know if you do that? Without folding seems then the seem goes open. Maybe it's that?

Perhaps you are using a different type of filter? I have noticed that the "cone" type filters are generally made from thicker paper and are much sturdier than the "basket" type filters.

And I second pitubo's advice to settle/decant rigorously before using a coffee filter.

It also helps to clean up the freebase a bit more.

I researched lye and cotton before and lye is used in the mercerization of cotton which from what i understood makes it stronger instead of degrading it, that's why i assumed that using lye on 100% cotton is safe but maybe dilute solution as you mentioned above

In the process of Mercerization, the lye is finally neutralized with acid. Only then does the cotton assume its improved qualities.

 

[melotikaci]

[...]
You can filter lye solutions with paper filters, but only very dilute lye solutions. In order to dilute a too strong lye solution, let the freebases precipitate to the bottom and carefully decant the supernatant solution. Then add more water and let the freebase fall to the bottom again, decant and add water again. After repeating this a few times, the lye concentration has decreased down to a level to make it filterable.

I was just thinking about lowering PH with water and wanted to ask about it. Thanks for answering in advance. :thumb_up:

Since we cannot assume that everyone is aware of the dangers and knows the correct ways to handle it, there is a real risk of recklessness, even if not intently reckless.

Yeap, I guess you are right..

...I found out that if the process takes a bit long then ...

What is 'a bit long' please?

~30 seconds and more.
I poured a solution in filter and it got a hole before all of the lequid went through, and that wasn't a deffective piece, happened three times in a row, even with a two stacked up together

30 sec looks too short to dissolve a coffee filter I think. Honestly I've never had such a problem, usually I add lye to pH 12 max 12.5. With this I was unable to destroy any coffee filter paper so far. But one has to fold the seems, I don't know if you do that? Without folding seems then the seem goes open. Maybe it's that?

Look at 1 min 40 sec that is what I mean.

Maybe you knew this already but had to mention.

And I second pitubo's advice to settle/decant rigorously before using a coffee filter.

Yeah, I did that but didn't help, unfortunately.

I'll do settle/decant, that seems the best option

 

[Sakkadelic]

Btw did use white or brown coffee filters? I hate the brown ones evem from same brand they break a lot, have leaks and i am always unsatisfied working with them, with the white one the filtered manske solution doesn't sparkle at all under light but with brown ones it's sparkly so tiny crystals pass through the brown filter..

 

[melotikaci]

Btw did use white or brown coffee filters? I hate the brown ones evem from same brand they break a lot, have leaks and i am always unsatisfied working with them, with the white one the filtered manske solution doesn't sparkle at all under light but with brown ones it's sparkly so tiny crystals pass through the brown filter..

I used white and it was quite expensive one.

Anyways, decanting did work. Did it 4-5 times and finally filtered without issues. Already drying the product.

Thanks again for help.

 

[Jees]

If you let freebase stand it starts to make bigger crystals. They start very initially as ultra fine dust, and after a while you find real crystals. Obviously this last enables easier filtering.

If you filter immediately after basing with lye, a lot of milky dust will fall straight trough your coffee filter, been there
Let it stand to make bigger crystals and then nothing falls trough anymore.
This dust to crystals transforming is witnessed life in situ under microscope.

So let it stand till tomorrow is a good habit.

 

[melotikaci]

If you let freebase stand it starts to make bigger crystals. They start very initially as ultra fine dust, and after a while you find real crystals. Obviously this last enables easier filtering.

If you filter immediately after basing with lye, a lot of milky dust will fall straight trough your coffee filter, been there
Let it stand to make bigger crystals and then nothing falls trough anymore.
This dust to crystals transforming is witnessed life in situ under microscope.

So let it stand till tomorrow is a good habit.

oh, didn't know that. I left it overnight and dusty stuff did change structure but not enoguh to form bigger crystals. Next time I'll let it sit longer.

 

[Michel]

From my experience, a gentle heating on a water bath to around 50 - 60 C for few minutes helps a lot the FBs to make bigger Xtals. Then, they become easier to filter very fast.
In my country, one use a kind of artificial fiber-free chamois leather to clean glasses; once deep cleaned from any soap, it is possible to use them as filter material with great success.

 

[melotikaci]

From my experience, a gentle heating on a water bath to around 50 - 60 C for few minutes helps a lot the FBs to make bigger Xtals. Then, they become easier to filter very fast.
In my country, one use a kind of artificial fiber-free chamois leather to clean glasses; once deep cleaned from any soap, it is possible to use them as filter material with great success.

Thanks for the tip, will try next time