Being a man

[Kensho]

Hiya all,

I'm just curious to hear your thoughts about masculinity in our time and age. I come from a society where I feel that, after the women's emancipation movement played its role, qualities that are perceived as being masculine are labelled, either explicitly or unexplicitly, as "barbaric", "stupid", or "from the stone-age". You get my point. In no way am I critical of the liberation of women, more than anything I would love to see everyone free and happy, but I am skeptical about whether or not the feminist movement has indeed played itself out in a way that is helpful in emancipating all human beings--men, women, and those who feel that they do not fit into categories of gender. It seems, especially, that men who feel that they conform to a masculine standard (whatever that means) are in a state of crisis.

I was born with a penis, thus I am especially interested in the concept of masculinity. Furthermore, I am predominantly gay, which I feel involuntary puts me in a position of examining gender roles and the meaning of sex more critically. The use of entheogens has further opened me up to this exploratory mindset into my own gender. The last few years have changed me into a more "manly" man, dare I say it, and interestingly I percieve this change to be coming from a natural place inside me. However, I am new to exploring my own gender so deeply, and thus would like to pose a few questions.

It would be cool to know what "masculinity" and "manliness" entails in your eyes, are they antiquated terms which only serve to imprison us, or do these concepts give any useful insight into how people can live their lives? (both people with penises or vaginas). Is there any thing, or any qualities, you consider to be "masculine" as opposed to "feminine"? In that case, what qualities or things? Must a masculine person naturally be dominant or is humbleness a natural consequence of the masculine mindset? Is masculinity even "acceptable"?

These questions are only meant to tickle your interest, and give some insight into the questions I am struggling with. Please share your thoughts on the subject. I would much appreciate them.

I know I am navigating in a territory which are full of strong feelings for many people, thus I hope that you pick up on my honest intention in this post. More than anything I am intending to understand my own feelings of hurt and suppression regarding this subject.

May all beings be happy and live with ease.

Peace, Kensho.

 

[arcologist]

As a straight male, I think there is a pretty big pressure to conform to an ideal of masculinity, that it's not good for a guy to show any traits that aren't traditionally masculine. I'm personally somewhere in the middle, where I have some masculine characteristics (I'm blunt, sometimes dominant, cool under stress, physically strong/manly), but at the same time I don't always choose to act in that way, so I sometimes appear weak, reserved, asexual, lacking opinions (but usually I just don't care). This has been a problem for me in relationships where a lot of women will be turned off by a man who is sensitive or who doesn't immediately make the first move or seem 'alpha'. A lot of people have thought that I was gay or bisexual in the past because I don't act like most guys.

Our culture is still very male-dominant, even if women are becoming more equal. It values historically masculine characteristics of drive, determination, assertiveness, cutthroat capitalism, while devaluing feminine traits like compassion and generosity. It really comes down to evolution and genetics - men are usually aggressive/dominant because of sexual selection for that trait, and women are more collaborative because it is advantageous for them to assist each other with child-rearing, gathering food, etc. Modern society is just an extension of those root characteristics. However, even though most people will fall into one category or another, I think it's important for everyone to acquire both masculine and feminine skills because they both can be useful in different situations.

Interestingly, DMT is an interesting way of exploring submissiveness to the fullest extent. Surrendering to its power is a necessity and fighting it will only result in trouble. I find DMT to be a very feminine experience, many entities exude a motherly presence.

 

[adam]

These are pretty complicated issues. From a psychological as well as biological standpoint. In my own case being someone who has a hormone disorder I have gone through a loop with my own sexuality.

I believe that humans are born with an orientation with differing strength and bearing towards the same or opposite sex. Many factors through your life can effect the strength and nature of this orientation. For example food laden with xeno-androgens or other hormone disrupting chemicals, and our unnatural way of life in general may naturally yield homosexuals as a way of natural population control. Not to mention things like socio-cultural influences that may pressure someone to make a designation on their sexuality that may or may not be totally accurate.

I believe that there is spectrum of sexuality, masculinity on one pole and femininity on the other. A sexually enlightened person I believe may fall near the middle, in tune with both aspects of themselves. It seems that really masculine men pair with very feminine women, and less masculine men with less feminine women. Also I don't feel like your degree of masculinity or femininity necessarily corresponds with physical stature, if anything more likely mental outlook.Anyways I think that sexuality can have a certain degree of fluidity depending where on the spectrum you fall, less fluid and more rigid towards the poles.

Sexuality can be very complicated if you let it be, but I believe that being truthful with yourself despite cultural pressure and taboos yields the greatest amount of joy in your life. Personally, lately anyways I have been nursing the idea of sexual cultivation and a more tantric approach to sex, that is preserving and nourishing the sexual energy, and being honest about your intentions on how and why you want to spend your energy a certain way.

Gender is biology but sexual orientation is psychology, sometimes the two mix and create hybrids, much of the confusion over sexuality and gender roles I believe stems from our separation from the earth. This separation has biological consequences which can effect sexuality. Anyways it best to just go with what your attracted to. 8)

Thats my rant

peace,

Adam

 

[Kensho]

I believe that humans are born with an orientation with differing strength and bearing towards the same or opposite sex. Many factors through your life can effect the strength and nature of this orientation. For example food laden with xeno-androgens or other hormone disrupting chemicals, and our unnatural way of life in general may naturally yield homosexuals as a way of natural population control. Not to mention things like socio-cultural influences that may pressure someone to make a designation on their sexuality that may or may not be totally accurate.

Where are you going with this? I know I would't be comfortable having my sexuality being reduced to "natural population control" due to "unnatural lifestyles" caused by xeno-androgens and whatnot. Anyhow I'm really more interested in people's thoughts on masculine/feminine energy and the conceptual meaning of it, than sexuality.

 

[Metanoia]

I come from a society where I feel that, after the women's emancipation movement played its role, qualities that are perceived as being masculine are labelled, either explicitly or unexplicitly, as "barbaric", "stupid", or "from the stone-age". You get my point. In no way am I critical of the liberation of women, more than anything I would love to see everyone free and happy, but I am skeptical about whether or not the feminist movement has indeed played itself out in a way that is helpful in emancipating all human beings--men, women, and those who feel that they do not fit into categories of gender. It seems, especially, that men who feel that they conform to a masculine standard (whatever that means) are in a state of crisis.

I have similar feelings on this subject. I'd like to share something I saw the other day. This woman claims to have 'feminist' views. I think many people, male or female, confuse a healthy feminist view with complete misandry. It'll be at the bottom of this post.

I see our society moving more and more into this mindset. It can't say it bothers me greatly, to be honest. I'm male, but I'm also predominantly gay. I find much of the macho male posturing to be completely useless. Perhaps at one point in history it served us as a species, but that time is already passed or at least coming to an end.

In "Food of the Gods" McKenna speaks about "dominator culture" and its use of alcohol and tobacco. That this patriarchal society thrives on competition and many other masculine traits, while devaluing the opposing feminine traits. I must say, I tend to agree with him. Although there needs to exist a balance, it cannot be one or the other.

I am not a masculine man. My appearance says otherwise, but my personality is not at all domineering or "alpha". I lean far more towards the feminine and once I accepted that about myself everything else followed. I spent many years completely out of tune with myself because I was attempting to fit into a male dominated culture. I'm a very large and muscular man, with a strong masculine look. Others (especially males) who don't know me tend to assume things about me. Then when they realize I'm a very passive and submissive type they almost always tease me, push me, challenge me physically, etc.

All that said, perhaps that's why I see things the way I do. Overtly masculine types seem insufferably moronic to me. On the other side of the spectrum, I don't like those who have a hatred for every male on the planet. There are some of us who are very sensitive and compassionate beings, and not all of us are homosexual either :lol:

I was born with a penis, thus I am especially interested in the concept of masculinity. Furthermore, I am predominantly gay, which I feel involuntary puts me in a position of examining gender roles and the meaning of sex more critically. The use of entheogens has further opened me up to this exploratory mindset into my own gender. The last few years have changed me into a more "manly" man, dare I say it, and interestingly I percieve this change to be coming from a natural place inside me.

I also found that my explorations with psychedelics have taught me to have a healthy masculinity. Masculinity was something I associated with being unhealthy...emotionally disconnected and, well, inherently negative. I cultivated my feminine traits early in life and they served me well, when I didn't try to suppress them.

Psychedelics allowed me to rediscover that aspect of myself and integrate it into my personality without being fearful of all the negative associations I had in the past. Being openly homosexual made me more of a man.... :surprised :lol:

It would be cool to know what "masculinity" and "manliness" entails in your eyes, are they antiquated terms which only serve to imprison us, or do these concepts give any useful insight into how people can live their lives? (both people with penises or vaginas). Is there any thing, or any qualities, you consider to be "masculine" as opposed to "feminine"? In that case, what qualities or things? Must a masculine person naturally be dominant or is humbleness a natural consequence of the masculine mindset? Is masculinity even "acceptable"?

I think I've described what I see as "masculiniity" but there are many examples I could give. At least these are the traditionally viewed predominantly male behaviors and activities.

Team sports in particular seem steeped in testosterone. Women do play hockey, rugby, baseball, etc. but those who actively seek it out, at least in the culture I live in, tend to have strong masculine traits or be homosexual.

Male dominated employment, which tends to be challenging physically, like firefighting and working with metals, etc. Again, women do seek out these positions, but almost always due to strong masculine or homosexual traits.

What I see as masculine traits are a strong desire for competition of any kind, interest in things that exude power (but are under our control) like engines, heavy machinery, etc.

A propensity for physical violence. Woman are just as capable as men, certainly. But masculinity dictates you must be bloodied, you must have some scars, or you're not a man. Almost like a rite of passage into manhood.

Something I'm guilty of myself: bravado. Typical of teenage or twenty-something males. This ties into the competition aspect, but it's also about personal pride and ego. You must have courage in the face of danger. Women give into fear too easily and thus, are weak. That's how they see it, and something I've had to unlearn myself over the years.

I think the unacceptable nature of masculinity is not maleness in and of itself, but the close mindedness of people in general. Our goal should be to unite the two opposing forces and see the merits in both. Not quibble over petty, or not so petty, differences.

Humility needs to be expressed from both the masculine and the feminine. As a natural consequence, not always. But those words "natural consequence" remind me of the life of male lions in the wild. They take claim over a pride of females and rule for as long as they're physically able, until a younger male challenges him and forces him out. The challenger then kills all the offspring of the older male lion to remove any threat to his claim of ownership. But male lions have no hunting skills because the lioness' do the hunting in the pride. So he's forced off to starve to death, alone, defeated. Sad, but I'm sure a very humbling experience to end your life with.

I think we'll have to move into a more balanced society to be able to integrate the old domineering hunter-type masculine viewpoints successfully. But I do feel they have a place in our lives, just as much as feminine qualities.

Our culture is still very male-dominant, even if women are becoming more equal. It values historically masculine characteristics of drive, determination, assertiveness, cutthroat capitalism, while devaluing feminine traits like compassion and generosity. It really comes down to evolution and genetics - men are usually aggressive/dominant because of sexual selection for that trait, and women are more collaborative because it is advantageous for them to assist each other with child-rearing, gathering food, etc. Modern society is just an extension of those root characteristics. However, even though most people will fall into one category or another, I think it's important for everyone to acquire both masculine and feminine skills because they both can be useful in different situations.

Interestingly, DMT is an interesting way of exploring submissiveness to the fullest extent. Surrendering to its power is a necessity and fighting it will only result in trouble. I find DMT to be a very feminine experience, many entities exude a motherly presence.

As I said above about Terence and "dominator culture" that is exactly how it's been and is currently. Feminism is devalued and mocked, equated with weakness and submissiveness.

I think psychedelics like Salvia and DMT are so comfortable and familiar to me because I have a strong feminine and naturally submissive personality. I also agree with it being a very feminine type of experience. "Lady Salvia" "Mother Aya"

I believe that there is spectrum of sexuality, masculinity on one pole and femininity on the other. A sexually enlightened person I believe may fall near the middle, in tune with both aspects of themselves. It seems that really masculine men pair with very feminine women, and less masculine men with less feminine women. Also I don't feel like your degree of masculinity or femininity necessarily corresponds with physical stature, if anything more likely mental outlook.Anyways I think that sexuality can have a certain degree of fluidity depending where on the spectrum you fall, less fluid and more rigid towards the poles.

Every long term girlfriend I've ever had was strongly masculine. There does need to exist a balance between the two personalities. Very feminine girls might be attracted to me physically, but my personality is a complete turn off for them So I definitely agree.

Same with the physical stature. I'm 6'4", about 240lbs. Masculine features, muscular, probably lots of male sexuality and testosterone exuding from my pores But girls quickly dub me a "big teddy bear" or more derogatory terms alluding to my feminine personality :lol:

I see it as a great balancing mechanism, my appearance. And as I said above over the last few years I've begun to reintegrate some of the repressed male aspects of my personality. I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with overly masculine personalities, but I strive to find a healthy balance for myself.

 

[drill]

Being a man is about acting out what feels right for you. Any societal man role must be queried because it probably was most likely sustained only to fit into the societal model. Generally the man does the rough work, and the women do the more finer work.

 

[hug46]

I would say i am in the middle. I ride big fast motorbikes, which is considered manly by society but i was not above dressing up as a woman and applying makeup for one of my ex girlfriends in the boudoir. The first time that i dolled myself up, when i looked in the mirror, i have to say that i was quite taken with myself. I still keep my Alice in Wonderland outfit in the bottom draw for emergencies.

More than anything I am intending to understand my own feelings of hurt and suppression regarding this subject.

If the feminists want to emasculate us men then fair play to them. Theyv"e had the shitty end of the stick for a long time. It"s time they had their crack of the whip. We should take it like men. It"ll all even out in the end.

 

[jamie]

"In no way am I critical of the liberation of women, more than anything I would love to see everyone free and happy, but I am skeptical about whether or not the feminist movement has indeed played itself out in a way that is helpful in emancipating all human beings--men, women, and those who feel that they do not fit into categories of gender."

I don't want to start a big debate because I understand that women have been oppressed throughout history(as have most people really) and the womens right movement is something that is needed..but I am critical of it. The womens rights movement was funded by the CIA, headed at one point by a CIA spy...the same CIA that flooded the world with LSD and funded the new age 60's counter culture etc. Feminist leader Gloria Steinem was a CIA spy, hired to spy on Marxist students etc..enough said. Something is shady about that.

I strongly believe that the womens rights movement was used against people..just as gay rights bills have been used to divert attention from other things etc..it's not to say that any of these people are not repressed and don't deserve liberation..it is just that how I see it these issues have been used against society by people with nefarious intentions.

The womens rights movement I think was funded and supported by the CIA at the same time they funded other counter cultural movements so they could dumb it all down. I don't know if I see this whole thing as really empowering women overall. I dated a very hard core feminist for a time and it was just sickening. Someone who basically hated men to the point where I don't know why she would date one..she wanted abortion for all women to the point where she literally hated children and the idea that women would give birth or have them..she thought the idea of a mother staying at home to raise her children was absurd..she thought my arm around her in public was improper as it made her look my my property..she pretty much lacked respect for all the AMAZING and beautiful things that make women so different from men..Interestingly not many people(men or women) seemed to like her. It was extremely frustrating trying to have a logical and graounded conversation with her about the subject. She was reading all kinds of really wacked out feminist literature that was just ridiculous.

There are things that make up a women that will never be part of being a man..even a homosexual man etc. A man can never bear child or breastfeed them, bond with them in the same way etc.. These things should IMO be celebrated and not seen as some kind of weakness of vulnerability. Women can give life in a way that is unmatched by men. There is a reason for the old goddess religions going back even into the paleolithic..and it is not because all the women hated men or wanted to be gender neutral..

The divine feminine energy is awakening in our world again but it is not because women are now the same as men, or because men are moa re like women, or because we stopped treating boys like boys and girls like girls..it is because we are again remembering the power of the feminine and embracing it instead of supressing it, or trying to make it more dominant and masculine(which is a good description of what I think often happens to hard core "feminists").

And men need to acknowledge that and respect that as well..and not take advantage of that. If a women wants to work instead of raise children etc that is fine. Equal opportunity is essential for an egalitarian society. If a man wants to raise his children and stay at home while his wife works than that's great..but for gods sake at least have one parent raising the kids..

Now we have a culture where it is normal for both parents to have to run out to work every day while the kids are at daycare etc..how is this situation liberating? the family unit is eroding..however it is that we got here, we are here now..so somewhere things took a different turn.

I don't think this is just me as some arrogant man who feels this way. I have heard many women express these concerns to me who are all devout humanitarians. The women I live with believes strongly in the freedom and liberation of all people, and is one of the biggest critics of the womens lib movement I have ever met..so I can assure you this is not just some mans opinion on the situation.

Of course some good has come from it..and many people understand the pitfalls that have happened along the way. We need to look deeper into things though, find out who funds these things and spreads certain ideas and why, and then decide for ourselves what makes sense and what doesn't. Just because you put the word "liberation" in there does not mean that is going to be the outcome.

 

[jamie]

In terms of masculinity..I think the new age CIA funded new age movement eroded some of that as well..there is this push towards gender neutrality it seems now that is just so ridiculous I cant take it seriously. Men are men and women are women. When you cant see that and respect it, and celebrate the diversity that makes us human you just loose sight of reality IMO.

Gender equality and gender neutrality are two very different things. Equality

 

[hug46]

"In no way am I critical of the liberation of women,

I think it is right to be critical of everything.
With all due respect to your ex, she sounds like a radical. And radicals the world over, in my opinion, are fruitloops. With underlying issues at hand.
Can you expand on how the women"s and gay rights were dumbed down? Did the CIA do it? I think everything in our culture has aspects of being dumbed down, due to our inherent stupidity as a species.
Gloria Steinam may have been a CIA asset but i won"t hear a word said against Germaine Greer.

 

[hixidom]

^this

Regarding the OP, I don't think it's useful to analyze how [allegedly] masculine and feminine traits are perceived. Rather, I think we should ask which traits, regardless of gender association, are the most valuable from a utilitarian perspective. I really liked Jamie's distinction, though I may be contradicting it when I say that, in an ideal world, everyone would try to embody the traits that are "objectively" valuable, and thus we would all have more or less the same strengths.

By objectively valuable traits, I mean the ones that are "chosen" by natural selection because the cultures that incorporate them survive longer. This may be a corrupt view because the traits that survive best may very well be brutality and selfishness.

Whether or not men and women are capable of transcending their true nature is a different story. If men and women truly do have different inherent traits, then it may be best for men and women to accept and embody those traits so that masculine and feminine strengths can form a symbiosis.

 

[jamie]

"In no way am I critical of the liberation of women,

I think it is right to be critical of everything.
With all due respect to your ex, she sounds like a radical. And radicals the world over, in my opinion, are fruitloops. With underlying issues at hand.
Can you expand on how the women"s and gay rights were dumbed down? Did the CIA do it? I think everything in our culture has aspects of being dumbed down, due to our inherent stupidity as a species.
Gloria Steinam may have been a CIA asset but i won"t hear a word said against Germaine Greer.

That is not my quote for the record. I quoted someone else there at the top of my post.

They dumbed down everything. I see the whole left wing 60's new age version of the counter culture(feminism is included) to be created in part by the CIA to divert peoples attention. It created more docile people who are easier to control. Look at the situation we now have where the family unit is eroded and both parents work and the children are often left with some daycare or nanny. That is not what we need for liberation. That just leaves people more enslaved than they already were.

There was/is obvious need for the liberation of women and for equal rights. That does not mean that that need can not be abused to twist that paradigm and brainwash/confuse people. I see a lot of confusion personally..and DIVISION. People are divided.

It is just a fact that the CIA infiltrated all kinds of left wing political counter culture circles back in the 50's and 60's. Before the 60's there was organized groups actively making a lot of progress..after the CIA got involved and funded the spreading of LSD and many new age ideas that they watered down and sold to the young and impressionable youth culture who were desperate for any kind of change that seemed to have shifted. Instead of the radical student protests you got stoned hippies who spoke about all of this stuff(with honerable intentions) but dont seem to have posed the same threat to me. You cannot divorce the womens lib movement as it flourished at that time from the greater counter culture/new age movement that was totally CIA funded. This is not conspiracy theory..this is just how things happened.

You can take something that is 95% truth, add in 5% twisted bs and end up with some kind of bastardization of the thing.

People get angry about this and call me names..tell me I am a sexist lol..as if this is a black/white situation. It is not..and you cant deny the hand that the CIA played in this whole movement of which womens lib was a part of. I think it has confused people and done damage. There is good there and there is some not so good. Doesn't mean we stop working towards true equality, it just means that we have to be realistic about it.

 

[Kensho]

Wow, thanks everyone for your very long and well thought-out replies. I have found many things to agree with and many things not to agree with in every one of these posts.

One of my biggest concerns with your post, Jamie, is that while I can definitely see the connection between sex and gender, I know that these models don't always fit everyone and in my opinion it is not sufficient to just say that "men are men and women are women", as this seems to me as being a way of pressing expectations onto people who may not be born to conform to them. But nevertheless I realize that many people who conform more or less to their "traditional" gender roles, often by coincidence since they were born, are today being treated as backwards by many people. That horrible example Dioxippus posted is a case in point.

My big worry is that my masculine energy per se, which at times has been quite strong, and which I sometimes like to accentuate with a specific kind of clothing and express in a certain kind of way while I am taking care not to suppress other people, seems to automatically carry with it a lot of expectations in society: because of it, I must be misogynistic, old-fashioned, and anti-gay. Some people get a little surprised when they find out that infact I am gay myself and that I really don't hold any grudges against effeminate men, say.

In Sweden there are kindergartens where they avoid any references to gender at all, and some of the most progressive of them even use gender-neutral pronouns when conversing with the children. While I'm unsure of how far to take this experiment, I am positive towards this effort of letting children find out themselves which gender they belong to, psychologically and energetically, irrespective of whether or not they were born with vaginas or penises. So I guess I am disagreeing with Jamie here, as I don't really see the need to treat children in any specific gender-biased way. My concern is how people are treated when they come to terms with their own sexual and gender-specific energy; I know that I am feeling pressure to stop being a "conformist" while many others feel a pressure to stop being "too effeminate", "too butch", etc. The main thing is that people are being treated with expectations to change into something they are not.

I guess what psychedelics have shown me is the arbitrariness of gender roles and expectations, while at the same time letting me see the extreme beauty of the masculine and feminine energies. If these energies are momentarily embodied by people with the "wrong" kind of physical bodies is really not of interest of to me. I am just concerned that we are currently suppressing both of these, and to borrow a term from the previous post perhaps we are even bastardizing them (example of bastardization: men must never cry and are always violent! Example of bastardization: women must be taught to be emotionally manipulative), while in truth they are both beautiful and valuable to us, in their pure form, as living beings.

 

[jamie]

"In Sweden there are kindergartens where they avoid any references to gender at all"

Yeah see I find that pretty discusting to be honest and this is the kind of thing I am talking about. I think that is an attempt to just confuse people and destroy men and women at the same time. Just because you pretend something is not so does not mean it is not so.

I never said anything about gender roles..but I think to deny the fact that gender roles have some substance is pointless. I dont care how feminine a man you are or vice versa..men still dont bleed..they cant ever bear a child..they cant ever experience the neurochemistry of a new mother bonding with a child..

Why are you afraid of gender roles is my question? Why does that threaten you? Gender roles does not mean that you are slave to bear children if you are a women, or to go work like some stupid caveman if you are a man..it simply makes reference to obvious differences that are unmistakeable and unavoidable. You do no justice at all to men or women, nor do you raise the status of either to the level of reverence each deserves equally when you deny this fact of nature. Again, gender equality is not gender neutrality. Gender neutrality is just an absolutely ridiculous bastardization being perpetuated to destroy what dignity we still have left.

When boys not longer realize they are boys and girls no longer realize they are girls and men and women walk around as autonomous robots in a system where every person is worked to death while the offspring are raised by hired servants to the system is a day I hope I never live to see.

This is not about gay rights, or womens right to choose any life they want to live with equal opportunity..when you start to believe that some half baked idea like gender neutrality is about that you have already given over your sanity.

 

[Kensho]

"In Sweden there are kindergartens where they avoid any references to gender at all"

Yeah see I find that pretty discusting to be honest and this is the kind of thing I am talking about. I think that is an attempt to just confuse people and destroy men and women at the same time. Just because you pretend something is not so does not mean it is not so.

Then how to cope with the confusion feminine boys and masculine girls feel when they don't conform to these standards? In many places, they are shunned--and definitely confused and destroyed--because they don't conform to a set of preconceived expectations. Your argument of pretending that something isn't there can easily be transferred onto these children.

To be short, I don't accept this stance as the "neutral" stance and I think it is only healthy for people to find out for themselves how they want to behave, dress, play, fuck, et cetera.

Why are you afraid of gender roles is my question? Why does that threaten you? Gender roles does not mean that you are slave to bear children if you are a women, or to go work like some stupid caveman if you are a man..it simply makes reference to obvious differences that are unmistakeable and unavoidable. You do no justice at all to men or women, nor do you raise the status of either to the level of reverence each deserves equally when you deny this fact of nature. Again, gender equality is not gender neutrality. Gender neutrality is just an absolutely ridiculous bastardization being perpetuated to destroy what dignity we still have left.

I have a problem with gender roles because I personally know of people who do not conform to them, and have suffered deep psychological trauma for a great part of their lives due to the fact that they have been treated with psychological violence since they were small and an expectation to change into something they were not. I do not see the "obvious difference" you are referring to, either, but I do see that the whole preconception of "gender roles" as opposed to just having a sane relationship with the masculine and feminine energies, leads to a lot of suffering in many people while I can't see why they lead to anything good.

I am curious of how you view people who do not conform to these "gender roles" you are proclaming to be so healty to conform to, then. Do you see them as weird, strange, or even sick? I am interested of hearing about how your concept of gender roles holds up to scrutiny when you see people who obviously do not conform to them.

This is not about gay rights, or womens right to choose any life they want to live with equal opportunity..when you start to believe that some half baked idea like gender neutrality is about that you have already given over your sanity.

I don't think you are in a position to decide whether I have given over my sanity or not.

 

[jamie]

"Then how to cope with the confusion feminine boys and masculine girls feel when they don't conform to these standards? In many places, they are shunned--and definitely confused and destroyed--because they don't conform to a set of preconceived expectations. Your argument of pretending that something isn't there can easily be transferred onto these children."

Well, if the answer is to confuse them all so that no one knows the difference between a penis and a vagina? Good luck. I never implied anywhere that the current situation works. It obviously does not. We live in a culture that undervalues the divine aspects of feminine energy and grossly stereotypes the masculine energy. We live in a culture full of (mostly) stupid people who learn about life from fox news...

If we actually have to confuse children as to what sex they are in order for people to be able to accept homosexuality or effeminate males etc than that is just really really sad and pathetic. Why cant you just love these people anyway for who they are? I love homosexual people the same as any other people and respect them and I can still tell the difference between a man like myself and a women.

I have no problem with the feminine. Much of my practice could be viewed by many as goddess worship. I am fine with the divine feminine and it is the energy I serve at this point in my life. I just dont feel the need to loose perspective to the point where I am confused as to who is male and who is female.

 

[Kensho]

"Well, if the answer is to confuse them all so that no one knows the difference between a penis and a vagina?

I know I never said that, and I think you are confusing the concepts of sex and gender.

 

[jamie]

"I am curious of how you view people who do not conform to these "gender roles" you are proclaming to be so healty to conform to, then. Do you see them as weird, strange, or even sick? I am interested of hearing about how your concept of gender roles holds up to scrutiny when you see people who obviously do not conform to them."

I never used the word "conform" anywhere. I said "gender roles" that's it. If your a man you piss from you dick, standing up(well you can). If your a woman you bleed every month(unless you have a medical issue), and can bear new life. These are roles we play..obviously. No man is going to get a sex change and be able to breastfeed or bear a child..sorry but this whole idea of gender neutrality etc just falls apart when you actually view it critically. We might as well just face that now and accept it. Doesn't mean we have to impose our stupid cultural boundries onto anyone. I sometimes wear womens clothing cus it fits me better and that is a weird cultural boundry that most people wouldn't cross.

I dont see anyone as weird strange or sick. I really find homophobia or any kind of hate based beliefs like that discusting. I have had gay friends and some of the coolest people I have known were gay. I think that the crossing of the culturally perceived boundries reguarding the sexes is extremely important and I think that homosexual(it's deeper than that but hard to explain)* people have held a very sacred and usually shamanic role in many old cultures and that this is something that our culture needs to reintegrate at this time. Still I dont think that implies gender neutrality in the way that it is being put forth.

*you can learn more about that here..

Two Spirits - Open Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

..." In Indonesia there are five genders. Gender is commonly viewed as a straight line male and female. In actuality it is an all encompassing circle with masculine women, feminine men and everywhere in between."

 

[jamie]

"I am just concerned that we are currently suppressing both of these, and to borrow a term from the previous post perhaps we are even bastardizing them (example of bastardization: men must never cry and are always violent! Example of bastardization: women must be taught to be emotionally manipulative), while in truth they are both beautiful and valuable to us, in their pure form, as living beings."

Yes this is what I fear is happening and this is what I think was the intended outcome. What is perceived as masculine in our culture is just stupidity IMO. That is not the divine masculine. It is the stupidity that feminism has been led to rally against in the impression that that is the masculine. That same moronic stupidity runs through both genders in our culture. I know women that are just as ego bound and dominant as men can be.

 

[Kensho]

I never used the word "conform" anywhere. I said "gender roles" that's it. If your a man you piss from you dick, standing up. If your a woman you bleed every month(unless you have a medical issue), and can bear new life. These are roles we play..obviously. No man is going to get a sex change and be able to breastfeed or bear a child..sorry but this whole idea of gender neutrality etc just falls apart when you actually view it critically. We might as well just face that now and accept it. Doesn't mean we have to impose our stupid cultural boundries onto anyone.

Sorry to repeat myself, but again, I think you are confusing the concepts of sex and gender here. I have consistently used the latter term.

I hope that you don't think I am proposing telling people with penises that they shouldn't talk about having one.