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Being a man
- Thread starter Kensho
- Start date
Up to this point in my life I have not found any personality traits intrinsic to people with XX or XY chromosomes which are unique to that gender. So far as I can see it, the only reason we have these divisions is because of culture.
What does it mean when someone tells you to 'man up', does it mean to be stronger? What about that is unique to a man? What does it mean to 'Be a man' ? Are we talking about virtue? Do men own this trait and keep it in a box away from the XXers ? And every time I hear the term 'REAL woman' it is something to do with being not stereotypically womanly, in fact often alludes to doing something 'manly' as far as the stereotypes of women go! Except when 'real woman' excuse for being obese, which men seem to care slightly less about on average, and this is because of culture....
In fact culture itself is the problem:
Let's say you raise a man and a woman in a virtual environment from birth into adulthood, suppose they have the exact same upbringing without these themes of masculine and feminine corrupting their sense of self identity, would they not both be relatively the same ?
Perhaps they would not be EXACTLY the same, but I can't see how the girl would find herself adhering to traits we call 'feminine' if she was never under the impression that she was expected to be this way.
In short, I think the concepts of masculine and feminine are cultured nonsense and are just another corrupted division of humanity through social expectation. The only truly masculine or feminine traits outside of culture are biological ones.
Tits...
Bollocks!
What does it mean when someone tells you to 'man up', does it mean to be stronger? What about that is unique to a man? What does it mean to 'Be a man' ? Are we talking about virtue? Do men own this trait and keep it in a box away from the XXers ? And every time I hear the term 'REAL woman' it is something to do with being not stereotypically womanly, in fact often alludes to doing something 'manly' as far as the stereotypes of women go! Except when 'real woman' excuse for being obese, which men seem to care slightly less about on average, and this is because of culture....
In fact culture itself is the problem:
Let's say you raise a man and a woman in a virtual environment from birth into adulthood, suppose they have the exact same upbringing without these themes of masculine and feminine corrupting their sense of self identity, would they not both be relatively the same ?
Perhaps they would not be EXACTLY the same, but I can't see how the girl would find herself adhering to traits we call 'feminine' if she was never under the impression that she was expected to be this way.
In short, I think the concepts of masculine and feminine are cultured nonsense and are just another corrupted division of humanity through social expectation. The only truly masculine or feminine traits outside of culture are biological ones.
Tits...
Bollocks!
@hug46
Two wrongs don't make a right. No human has the right to punish me for something i did not do.
Yes, woman can be and should be pissed off at the centuries of subjugation, but punishing a (modern)man for some diffuse thing somebody did centuries ago is collective punishment, which is illegal in all western countries and considered unethically.
Collective punishment is a trigger for me, because i heard one time too often that i am a bad Nazi, that my ancestors where monsters, and that i should feel guilty and miserable, all because i was born in this country.
In german, feminism has a different tone and meaning than in english i think. Feminism is a view that favours females, and it often describes the more fanatic bunch of bitches and über dykes(sorry couldn't resist).
The Feminist lobby is very strong in Germany, thats why of course you have feminist politicians who changed the law in favor of womans.
On the other hand, the number of females who actually are feminists is in the minority. Most german woman want gender equality, but see the views of the feminists as too radical or wrong and most are clever enough to see the extreme negative fallout on the relationship market.
Femenist in german wail their eyes out because the males shun them and run away in droves.
They are pissed and in panic, because there are not enough singlemen available who earn more money than them, so that they could marry up. But they also don't consider to marry a man who is less succesfull/rich, which makes their hybris visible to all.
I personally have no problem with strong successful confident woman.
Actually i want one.
Two wrongs don't make a right. No human has the right to punish me for something i did not do.
Yes, woman can be and should be pissed off at the centuries of subjugation, but punishing a (modern)man for some diffuse thing somebody did centuries ago is collective punishment, which is illegal in all western countries and considered unethically.
Collective punishment is a trigger for me, because i heard one time too often that i am a bad Nazi, that my ancestors where monsters, and that i should feel guilty and miserable, all because i was born in this country.
In german, feminism has a different tone and meaning than in english i think. Feminism is a view that favours females, and it often describes the more fanatic bunch of bitches and über dykes(sorry couldn't resist).
The Feminist lobby is very strong in Germany, thats why of course you have feminist politicians who changed the law in favor of womans.
On the other hand, the number of females who actually are feminists is in the minority. Most german woman want gender equality, but see the views of the feminists as too radical or wrong and most are clever enough to see the extreme negative fallout on the relationship market.
Femenist in german wail their eyes out because the males shun them and run away in droves.
They are pissed and in panic, because there are not enough singlemen available who earn more money than them, so that they could marry up. But they also don't consider to marry a man who is less succesfull/rich, which makes their hybris visible to all.
I personally have no problem with strong successful confident woman.
Actually i want one.
Kensho said:
Lots of shrooms. And lonelyness.
Too much lonlyness actually.
Not enough shrooms.
I was a shy guy and i fucked up hard for years. No girl would approach me. I also did not dare to approach a female.
Someday my frustation would flip a switch in my brain and i said: FUCK IT!
You want me to do something? You have expectations?
Watch me do the opposite!
I simply stopped caring at some point and since then its my way or highway.
I completly stopped to give woman overly attention, sometimes i pretend they are not there, i stopped censoring my thoughts and told every woman what i REALLY think, even if i know they get pissed. When i was younger i placed every woman on a podest, now i leave a trail of destroyed podests.
My fears of the past are the joys of my present day.
I actually like it to earn an disgusted look from an prada/gucci wearing female, when i walk around with my old, deranged, worn out shoes.
(I wear these shoes as a bitch detector.)
I think over the years i deprogrammed and conditioned myself. I learned to enjoy the fact that i disagree with others. I enjoy it when somebody labels me as something which is in general seen as "abnormal". I enjoy the fact that i am an outsider.
I do lots of things others don't,...why should i listen to the opinions of the inexperienced?
People call me crazy, i laugh in their face.
hrtsongmeditation
Rising Star
People do have a right to be upset when they have been treated poorly; but, so long as they hang onto their anger they will continue to suffer. No matter how justified the anger, they will suffer and continue to spread suffering until they learn to let it go and leave the past in the past.
This probably needs it's own thread elsewhere, but it applies to the discussion at hand - There's a big difference between the mindset of "get over it" and "letting go." The "get over it" mentality is condescending and if heeded leads to repression and further imbalances. People do not have the ability to will their emotions away, only to control where they focus.
"Letting go" is about making peace with the events and truly moving on. It is a process of healing, which by it's nature often takes time. It's about gaining perspective and not assigning too much importance to the painful events of the past. Ultimately, the need to "let go" is a big part of why people need meditation and psychedelics.
I bring all this up right now because there is a danger that we all face of driving ourselves nuts trying to change imbalanced society. The best thing for society is to seek personal enlightenment and then stick to your guns. Cultivate self-love and as you learn to love yourself the lack of acceptance from others loses importance. Cultivate a close relationship with God, God's Love is infinite and experiencing closeness with God is healing.
There's a very popular Ghandi quote that I love "Be the change you want to see in the world."
Honestly, I don't see what any of us gain by listing the flaws and shortcomings of others. Condescension is ego and robs us of peace and harmony. Even when others are out of balance, note it and move on. It's only worth dwelling on if you're dealing with someone who sincerely wants to do better and you can offer them support.
I agree as to the damage that clinging to societal gender roles has caused and will continue to cause; but, I am concerned that our discussion here isn't really doing anything more than reliving the pain and keeping it alive. Maybe the best advice here is forgive and forget, easier said than done perhaps; but, that doesn't mean that this is not the path of wisdom.
It is difficult to set a positive example in the world and truly make positive change when you're mad at people for their imbalances. Show them love and let them learn in time, when they are ready. It does more good than it may appear.
This probably needs it's own thread elsewhere, but it applies to the discussion at hand - There's a big difference between the mindset of "get over it" and "letting go." The "get over it" mentality is condescending and if heeded leads to repression and further imbalances. People do not have the ability to will their emotions away, only to control where they focus.
"Letting go" is about making peace with the events and truly moving on. It is a process of healing, which by it's nature often takes time. It's about gaining perspective and not assigning too much importance to the painful events of the past. Ultimately, the need to "let go" is a big part of why people need meditation and psychedelics.
I bring all this up right now because there is a danger that we all face of driving ourselves nuts trying to change imbalanced society. The best thing for society is to seek personal enlightenment and then stick to your guns. Cultivate self-love and as you learn to love yourself the lack of acceptance from others loses importance. Cultivate a close relationship with God, God's Love is infinite and experiencing closeness with God is healing.
There's a very popular Ghandi quote that I love "Be the change you want to see in the world."
Honestly, I don't see what any of us gain by listing the flaws and shortcomings of others. Condescension is ego and robs us of peace and harmony. Even when others are out of balance, note it and move on. It's only worth dwelling on if you're dealing with someone who sincerely wants to do better and you can offer them support.
I agree as to the damage that clinging to societal gender roles has caused and will continue to cause; but, I am concerned that our discussion here isn't really doing anything more than reliving the pain and keeping it alive. Maybe the best advice here is forgive and forget, easier said than done perhaps; but, that doesn't mean that this is not the path of wisdom.
It is difficult to set a positive example in the world and truly make positive change when you're mad at people for their imbalances. Show them love and let them learn in time, when they are ready. It does more good than it may appear.
"In short, I think the concepts of masculine and feminine are cultured nonsense"
Except for the fact that if you look anywhere in nature you see gender roles being played out. People can deny this FACT all they want based on how they personally feel about the idea of gender roles..but it does not make it any less real. This is just how nature is. It is not a bad thing either..it is a beautiful thing if you are able to let go of the overly opinionated left brain and just accept it for what it is.
It is our cultural models of what a male and female should be that is cultural nonsense. The masculine and the feminine are very real sides of a circle in nature, and then there is asexuality where the two meet, especially within the plant kingdom. Indigenous peoples probly observed this sort of 3rd unitary gender in some orgonisms long ago and saw that same sort of energy reflected in some people and simply accepted them as such. We should adopt that. They're way is better. There is no other way to say it.
Nature really is the best example. There is male, there is female..there is asexual..there is homosexuality among non human animals. There is still gender..and there is still gender roles. This is just reality.
Am I somehow a sexist, or anti feminist or intolerant of others now because I wont refuse to observe and accept that reality?
Except for the fact that if you look anywhere in nature you see gender roles being played out. People can deny this FACT all they want based on how they personally feel about the idea of gender roles..but it does not make it any less real. This is just how nature is. It is not a bad thing either..it is a beautiful thing if you are able to let go of the overly opinionated left brain and just accept it for what it is.
It is our cultural models of what a male and female should be that is cultural nonsense. The masculine and the feminine are very real sides of a circle in nature, and then there is asexuality where the two meet, especially within the plant kingdom. Indigenous peoples probly observed this sort of 3rd unitary gender in some orgonisms long ago and saw that same sort of energy reflected in some people and simply accepted them as such. We should adopt that. They're way is better. There is no other way to say it.
Nature really is the best example. There is male, there is female..there is asexual..there is homosexuality among non human animals. There is still gender..and there is still gender roles. This is just reality.
Am I somehow a sexist, or anti feminist or intolerant of others now because I wont refuse to observe and accept that reality?
It's the ones in our culture which I was talking about anyway jamie. The non-default tv land idealist nonsense we find ourselves swimming in. It's a joke really. Almost everything a female can do, a male can do and vice versa, besides biological stuff like birth a child for a woman or produce Y chromosomes for a man... let's not go off on a tangent here.
I think it's easy to get a better idea of the traits which are actually inherent to us biologically. Look at the animal kingdom. It's like people without the bullsh*t.
I think it's easy to get a better idea of the traits which are actually inherent to us biologically. Look at the animal kingdom. It's like people without the bullsh*t.
Agreed. I will admit that these issues do still stir up negative emotions. I've let go of a huge amount of baggage that I carried for many years, but it's a slow process, as you mentioned. Healing comes in its own time, there is no forcing it. But yes, it's that condescending "get over it" mentality that irks me.hrtsongmeditation said:
You're right, discussion of these things is necessary, but dwelling on the negative aspects isn't going to help anyone move forward. Forgiveness should be the way
Certainly not. It is a part of our existence. Just sometimes these things get all twisted and convoluted and create an imbalance. I think the masculine and feminine are meant to coexist side by side, harmoniously. It's other people forcing their ideas of gender and societal roles that creates the problems.jamie said:
Kensho said:
Ok, fair enough. Maybe i worded my phrase wrong and didn"t mean to cause offence to people. Also i am just referring to "getting over" the evils of feminism (if you see them as such). However i really do think getting over and learning from your painful feelings, where they have come from, who they come from and why they have come about, is intrinsic to learning about what makes you the human being that you are.
Horses for courses.
Believe it or not i too am a sensitive, delicate flower at times and, for me, "getting over it" has served me well in life.
Ryusaki said:
I think this is a bizarre statement coming from someone, who in a previous post, claimed that 2 wrongs don"t make a right.
Tell me where did i go wrong?
In the past i would take any female feedback more than serious and smack myself over the head with it until i feel miserable. I was DEPENDEND on external feedback, to feel good and confident. I was also addicted to make everything "right" and please EVERYBODY.
Now i can accept that a materialistic woman who is more interested in what kind of shoes i wear, is simply not a good match for me, and i can smile at her, go my ways, and be content.
In the past i would take any female feedback more than serious and smack myself over the head with it until i feel miserable. I was DEPENDEND on external feedback, to feel good and confident. I was also addicted to make everything "right" and please EVERYBODY.
Yeah exactly THIS. I was shy, sensible perfectionist with low self esteem and a helper syndrome.hug46 said:
Now i can accept that a materialistic woman who is more interested in what kind of shoes i wear, is simply not a good match for me, and i can smile at her, go my ways, and be content.
Ryusaki said:
I wish i could tell you the answer to that! But i would start with your parents/guardians and they, in turn, can blame their parents. And so it goes.
Our lives are so convoluted and our personalities are gradually carved by external sensory influences. At my age i, more or less, know who and what i like and i know that i ain"t perfect. Nor will i ever be. I like it that way. As far as i am concerned materialistic people are lost imperfect sheep. Just like the rest of us.
With regard to feminism and any other movement it is not a war as far as i am concerned. It is just humanity thrashing it"s ideas out in the only way it knows how. You can"t bake a cake without breaking eggs and some us have become scrambled eggs.
hug46 said:
This. Is like the essence of so much suffering. And seeing that fact has been so enormously liberating for me, and has given space to replace anger and suffering with compassion and care and healing and... well, you get my point. And how to free ourselves from this bullshit without some spiritual practice and community? I can't see how.
I, too, suffered in the same way as Ryusaki mentioned for a long time. I guess stopping "helping" people is a lifelong project. Anyway I notice there is actually more room for love and happiness when I can just speak my mind and be myself.
MrLuvaluva
Rising Star
Hmmmmm being a man to me means standing on your own 2 feet and facing up to your own reality however feck'd up it may seem. Oh and theres something to be said for the law of attraction bro's n ho's... I don't believe this mumbo jumbo that your born gay... No kid knows what sexuality is, its down to our social conditioning to accept it and welll... i accept it and have even been curious on occassion and maybe just maybe i may let some girl give me a prostate massage just to see what all the fusss is about... Keep taking the psychedelics my friend you will get to the bottom of these questions you crave to answer..
Have women won their full deserved equality in every corner of the planet? No they haven't. Until that day comes the feminist movement has not played itself out.Kensho said:
MrLuvaluva said:
Wikepedia:
"Homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1,500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[1][2] The sexual behavior of non-human animals takes many different forms, even within the same species. The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood, since most species have yet to be fully studied.[3] According to Bagemihl, "the animal kingdom [does] it with much greater sexual diversity – including homosexual, bisexual and nonreproductive sex – than the scientific community and society at large have previously been willing to accept."
So what social conditioning do gut worms and the 1499 other observed species undergo? While environmental and cultural influences certainly play a part, it is indeed mumbo jumbo to assert that being born gay is mumbo jumbo. It's always a little more complex than the mumbo jumbo we learned as little mumbas and jumbets.
JBArk
To address the OP's query:
One behavioural difference I have remarked in my relations and observed in others' leads me to believe that in general (yes, we are dealing in generalizations, the exceptions to which are often so numerous that it makes me wonder sometimes if they are useful, but alas, it's sorta the way the human mind works...) - in general men are more concerned with the end result as a mechanical outcome, whereas women tend to focus more on the process, or journey.
This idea came to me as a sudden realization after a frustrating fight (topping many, many others) I had with my girlfriend at the time, in which I knew I was right from the outset, intuited correctly that she believed I was right and noted that she went through with this (and many other) arguments nevertheless (and also noted i engaged her in it willingly, albeit with a degree of frustration and self criticism for having been sucked in). At arguments end, 2 hours and a bucket of tears later, she admitted that i was clearly right, apologized and nestled in, cuddling lovingly. I was a ball of stress and frustration and kept mulling the argument over in my head for days. But it had been a watershed moment: I realized she NEEDED to go through the process to feel better, and strangely, it made her feel closer to me. And that the outcome was actually completely irrelevant to her. Ironically, it just served to push me away, because all I could focus on was that we could have saved what I perceived as a wasted 2 hours of hell if she had just thought it through and realized that i had a point to begin with.
I talked to some friends, men and women, about my idea. It was initially met with resistance, but before long they all started to give me examples from their daily life that supported it. Not just through arguments, but an over-riding approach, or philosophy emerged: women were more geared to enjoy or appreciate the journey and the notion of process whereas men are primed for the result, the outcome, the conclusion. I have learned a lot from this, but am ill equipped (being a man!) to know how to put it into practice. All I can say is that neither are particularly healthy. Or unhealthy. Maybe complementary...?
Is it a veritable difference between the sexes? I tend to think so. Is it biological or environmental or - as is most often the case - the product of both? I don't know. Clearly what I have written is anecdotal, from the point of view of a given class of western person of a certain age living in a social democracy... so it is sort of impossible to say one way or another. But in my experience it has held true, but may be more an intriguing observation than anything of real use.
I am curious to see what others think.
And thanks all for the thread - great to read all these ideas and opinions and watch them heat up and cool down. Tough subject.
cheers,
JBArk
One behavioural difference I have remarked in my relations and observed in others' leads me to believe that in general (yes, we are dealing in generalizations, the exceptions to which are often so numerous that it makes me wonder sometimes if they are useful, but alas, it's sorta the way the human mind works...) - in general men are more concerned with the end result as a mechanical outcome, whereas women tend to focus more on the process, or journey.
This idea came to me as a sudden realization after a frustrating fight (topping many, many others) I had with my girlfriend at the time, in which I knew I was right from the outset, intuited correctly that she believed I was right and noted that she went through with this (and many other) arguments nevertheless (and also noted i engaged her in it willingly, albeit with a degree of frustration and self criticism for having been sucked in). At arguments end, 2 hours and a bucket of tears later, she admitted that i was clearly right, apologized and nestled in, cuddling lovingly. I was a ball of stress and frustration and kept mulling the argument over in my head for days. But it had been a watershed moment: I realized she NEEDED to go through the process to feel better, and strangely, it made her feel closer to me. And that the outcome was actually completely irrelevant to her. Ironically, it just served to push me away, because all I could focus on was that we could have saved what I perceived as a wasted 2 hours of hell if she had just thought it through and realized that i had a point to begin with.
I talked to some friends, men and women, about my idea. It was initially met with resistance, but before long they all started to give me examples from their daily life that supported it. Not just through arguments, but an over-riding approach, or philosophy emerged: women were more geared to enjoy or appreciate the journey and the notion of process whereas men are primed for the result, the outcome, the conclusion. I have learned a lot from this, but am ill equipped (being a man!) to know how to put it into practice. All I can say is that neither are particularly healthy. Or unhealthy. Maybe complementary...?
Is it a veritable difference between the sexes? I tend to think so. Is it biological or environmental or - as is most often the case - the product of both? I don't know. Clearly what I have written is anecdotal, from the point of view of a given class of western person of a certain age living in a social democracy... so it is sort of impossible to say one way or another. But in my experience it has held true, but may be more an intriguing observation than anything of real use.
I am curious to see what others think.
And thanks all for the thread - great to read all these ideas and opinions and watch them heat up and cool down. Tough subject.
cheers,
JBArk
That's a nice way of putting it, they focus on the journeyjbark said:One behavioural difference I have remarked in my relations and observed in others' leads me to believe that in general (yes, we are dealing in generalizations, the exceptions to which are often so numerous that it makes me wonder sometimes if they are useful, but alas, it's sorta the way the human mind works...) - in general men are more concerned with the end result as a mechanical outcome, whereas women tend to focus more on the process, or journey.
I talked to some friends, men and women, about my idea. It was initially met with resistance, but before long they all started to give me examples from their daily life that supported it. Not just through arguments, but an over-riding approach, or philosophy emerged: women were more geared to enjoy or appreciate the journey and the notion of process whereas men are primed for the result, the outcome, the conclusion. I have learned a lot from this, but am ill equipped (being a man!) to know how to put it into practice. All I can say is that neither are particularly healthy. Or unhealthy. Maybe complementary...?
And thanks all for the thread - great to read all these ideas and opinions and watch them heat up and cool down. Tough subject.
cheers,
JBArk
I'm very much about the journey, but I'm overly feminine Anyhow, you're right. Every girl I've been with in the past has dragged me into arguments which seem to have no real purpose. It's like they enjoy fighting. The process of fighting, whether it ends up with a bout of love-making or not. DRIVES ME ABSOLUTELY INSANE!!! :lol:
It's not the end result I focus on much, simply the negativity for negativity's sake. Argue about the color of feces, for christ's sake. There are better ways to let out that energy, but every woman I've been close to will pick a fight and see how far they can take it. If there was some rhyme or reason to it, I could deal with that. But to fight just because it makes you feel better afterwards?!?!? Ugh. Women. :lol:
I've known I was bisexual since early pubescence. I love women, they're extremely attractive (physically) but that mental and emotion difference really repulses me. Maybe one day I will have a relationship with a woman again, but if I do, she will not do what I call "sport bitching". Hey! Let's fight with each other and make a game out of it! Not so much fun.
Dioxippus said:That's a nice way of putting it, they focus on the journey
Anyhow, you're right. Every girl I've been with in the past has dragged me into arguments which seem to have no real purpose. It's like they enjoy fighting. The process of fighting, whether it ends up with a bout of love-making or not. DRIVES ME ABSOLUTELY INSANE!!! :lol:
Well, I gave the benefit of the doubt.
Though I have noted it in other types of behaviour that are less argumentative: Driving, problem solving, building stuff/creating, shopping, groceries... (but not sex... OK??!!)
I like to get there. I often like "having done" more than the doing, the sense of accomplishment more than the prospect itself, and a lot of guys I have spoken with agree. A lot of women too. (again, not the sex... OK?!?)
Having said that, I have been in arguments with the aforementioned girlfriend about: the boiling point of water, whether or not it will rain, where to put a tent when there is only one high ground flat spot in the shade, what to eat (on a daily basis, though i was the one cooking it all), how paper is made, why a thermometer works, why men cry, homeopathy, why an anchor is needed in gyp-rock to hold up shelves, and yes, full circle - the FREEZING point of water...
Wait a second here, did you just make me turn this into a bitch session about my ex, Dioxippus? Damn you!!!
JBArk
