Can DMT be extracted by fermentation ?

[AlbertKLloyd]

I suspect ring closure could be an issue here and that a beta-carboline might be formed as they are commonly formed during fermentation. Which is why so many fermented foods contain Betacarbolines. It is worth a try but I would not put all my eggs in that basket.

 

[John Smith]

I will start it soon, possibly tomorrow. Half water half lactobacillus rich brine, enough to submerge mhrb powder. One question though: would a layer of olive oil be ok to sit on top of it for over a week ? I am assuming it wouldn't pull since bark is not basified yet.

 

[John Smith]

1) mhrb that has been extracted with kefir that has finished fermentation and has been boiled to sterilise it

Why would I need to sterilize it, if I proceed the same way as I ferment regular cabbage ?

Also I guess I'll have to add some shredded cabbage as a source of food, will that be okay to basify and pull it after ?

 

[Hieronymous]

I wouldn't want to produce a microbially active product, besides being unhygienic who knows what the microbes will do to the finished product.

I was thinking a PC would be a safer option. I'm not sure how stable DMT is in acetate form at 120 degrees though.

 

[John Smith]

I see your point. Lactobacillus(+others) start dying at 31c.. I would imagine close to100c boil would destroy it pretty fast.

Also any idea why would following happen ? I don't have a place outside.

man... make sure you have some decent ventilation.
anaerobic respiration produces some very rank products.
putrescine and cadaverine literally smell like a rotten corpse.

 

[Hieronymous]

If there is any ornithine in the material you begin with it can decarboxylate to form putrescine. You really don't want to have that in an enclosed space because it stinks like death. I'm not sure how much ornithine would be in MHRB though so it may not be a big issue.

I've got mixed thoughts about a culture in brine, without a source of sugar to activate the lactobacillus it will be partially in suspended animation. I think it would have a much lower metabolic rate than a more active culture with a food source and not process the cellulose structure of the bark as fast as a result.

Just do a small test batch man, I wouldn't want to see anyone waste their bark off the back off my hairbrained suggestion.

 

[John Smith]

Cool, I didn't know that.

Maybe I'll do two small batches then, like 10g each, one with some cabbage other just by itself. Brine will be used from well fermented batch of cabbage, assorted green leaves and carrot... Also I use olive oil as a "lid" instead of regular airtight 'fermenting lid' it shouldn't let the smell escape.

 

[benzyme]

I see your point. Lactobacillus(+others) start dying at 31c.. I would imagine close to100c boil would destroy it pretty fast.

Also any idea why would following happen ? I don't have a place outside.

man... make sure you have some decent ventilation.
anaerobic respiration produces some very rank products.
putrescine and cadaverine literally smell like a rotten corpse.

decarboxylation of lysine, amino acid degradation in the absence of oxygen (anaerobic respiration)

 

[John Smith]

I see your point. Lactobacillus(+others) start dying at 31c.. I would imagine close to100c boil would destroy it pretty fast.

Also any idea why would following happen ? I don't have a place outside.

man... make sure you have some decent ventilation.
anaerobic respiration produces some very rank products.
putrescine and cadaverine literally smell like a rotten corpse.

decarboxylation of lysine, amino acid degradation in the absence of oxygen (anaerobic respiration)

Is there significantly more lysine in MHRB compared to regular veggies ?

 

[benzyme]

I honestly don't know, but lysine is ubiquitous in proteins.
it's actually more abundant in animal tissues

 

[John Smith]

Good to know... ill give it a week at room temp, see what happens.

 

[John Smith]

Got 2 vessels with 20g powder in each, both were topped off with over 5 times the volume of brine. One had 40g of shredded carrot added ; other is just as is. It's day 2 and I'm not seeing signs of fermentation going(not bubbling or anything) in either of them. Can the extreme astrigency of the solution impair the growth growth of lactobacillus ? Ill add more brine and some semi-fermented stuff in there as well see if it picks up.

 

[plumsmooth]

Somewhere I remember reading (can't seem to fin the original reference or two) that Santo Daime's Ayahuasca is fermented intentionally for 15 days. I have also read that it has an almost sweet taste and is possibly one of the best tasting ayahuasca recipes.

Anyway maybe this has to do with a transformation of the tannins by the fermenting organisms? Not sure if there is enough natural sugar in caapi mhrb or chacruna to feed the kefir grain. However I'll bet some of the multitude of bacteria and yeasts would survive to do something.

The question is what. And to the extent that in general fermented foods are recommended against, what negative might come of the fusion?

 

[Hieronymous]

Thanks for the insight I've never heard that before.

In reality I think it would be very similar to the acid phase in a normal extraction, it would just be slower without any need for a heat source.

People with kids could be in serious trouble doing normal extractions in the same house where the kids are if they get caught extracting, we're talking relatively benign chemicals anyway but a judge might not see it that way. So the idea came out investigations into things that can be done outside. That way no-one can say they were operating a drug lab in a house with kids.

I also thought it might by-pass the freeze lysing process, a lazy mans tek of sorts.

It's good to know the DMT can survive the fermentation process if the anecdotal info is correct.

I've got my Kefir grains established and I've started a batch that I'm slowly adding Acaia phyllodes to in the hope they adapt to the some of the volatile plant compounds. Hopefully it wont be a "culture shock" excuse the pun, when I add a full sized batch of phyllodes and the culture won't stall when I do it for real.

I got a batch of bunk bark last time that failed with a standard A/B & STB so I've had to put this hold for now.

 

[mrwiggle]

ohh gee two of my favorite subjects, i have been experimenting making exotic ferments for quite sometime now water kefir being my solid favorite for most things, i will say the tannins are very harsh for many micro organisms, and i would tread very lightly there, also most of the lacto family are facultative as aposed to obligate which means they survive aerobicly and anearobicly so you dont need to make disgusting anearobic compounds...also i would tend to go alcohol yeast or live vineagar...these would be the most hearty organisms you would also get the strongest pull with a solution high in alcohol or natural acids, though the alcohol would be more of a tincture while the acids in vineagar would act more like you are fantasising doing all sorts of bonding and restructuring and such, the reference to sweet ayahuaska is unfermented or unly lightly fermented, if they let it ferment for any significant time it gets sour because they eat all the sugars, (caapi tends to be fairly high in sugers in some cases) i would avoid using vegetables as food sources in a sensitive ferment your just inviting wierdness...i have succesfully made kefir and mead with psliocin/psilocybin, we found (anocdotaly) that it increases innitial potency, and then after about a week starts to mellow and the experience changes pretty significantly, we also were experimenting with tartaric acid as a way to preserves the active molecules...i have also experimented with fermenting a variety of other neuro transmitters...definitly want to try getting your culture used to it before you start puting large amounts in, it might be worth concentrating you plant matter before fermenting...maybe do a resin tek, then you would also have the opportunity to pul alot of those tannins out with the egg white/geletin tek...

 

[ArtieFartie]

Got 2 vessels with 20g powder in each, both were topped off with over 5 times the volume of brine. One had 40g of shredded carrot added ; other is just as is. It's day 2 and I'm not seeing signs of fermentation going(not bubbling or anything) in either of them. Can the extreme astrigency of the solution impair the growth growth of lactobacillus ? Ill add more brine and some semi-fermented stuff in there as well see if it picks up.

Any news?

I'm extremely interested in this.

 

[John Smith]

Yeah it's still going but it's hard to say what exactly happening in there. Unlike regular fermentation with cabbage where there are obvious signs like expansion, gradual odour change, bubbles etc. MHRB is quite different. It seems inert, even without a anaerobic lid on top(oil or fermentation seals) that it's either going really slowly or that it's not going at all. It reminds me of a cold water expraction experiment I did a while ago, water+mimosa sat for over 1.5 years in the fridge without going bad. My wild guess would be extreme astringency of mhrb thats contributing to that. Carrots/cabbage in the jar with a feed actually stay hard and dont float on top. I keep re-topping it with fresh brine from my weekly ferments since its evapping but I think a lot more time wouldn't hurt since I'm only doing this once.

Also I'm not doing any side to side comparisons but rather looking for some obvious change once its extracted, such whenever using usual STB will yield something other than approximately 1.8% of tan powder that I usually get. So if it for example yields oil or something different than usual than we might be be onto something. And if this doesn't yield anything unusual it would be still interesting to test within different bacterial environment besidies acidic and super-tannic MHRB juice such as fresh(or rehydrated) psychotria viridis leaves.

Somewhere I remember reading (can't seem to fin the original reference or two) that Santo Daime's Ayahuasca is fermented intentionally for 15 days. I have also read that it has an almost sweet taste and is possibly one of the best tasting ayahuasca recipes.

Anyway maybe this has to do with a transformation of the tannins by the fermenting organisms? Not sure if there is enough natural sugar in caapi mhrb or chacruna to feed the kefir grain. However I'll bet some of the multitude of bacteria and yeasts would survive to do something.

The question is what. And to the extent that in general fermented foods are recommended against, what negative might come of the fusion?

 

[DamiasOfEgypt]

This project is very interesting. :d

If you can't get kefir to work you can try using something more hardy such as baking or champagne yeast as they both can tolerate (comparativly) harsh conditions.

And as an added bonus i believe champagne yeast can survive up to 16% alcohol.

I'm not expert on the subject but i ferment drinks and foods on a regular basis and am currently working on a batch of tepache (pineapple beer). And i use champagne yeast because of its high tolerance to alcohol and how fast it can throw out alcohol.

I would create a infusion first from the MHBR on low heat just to break it down some. Then the sugar and yeast. If you put it in a warmish place that is dark, it should quickly build alcohol levels.

I also wonder if this would work with cebil?

 

[iracema]

there's a jurema beverage made by brazilian non-amazonian natives.
it is named "cauim", made from fermented "aipim" (cassava) and jurema bark into clay jars.

an interesting feature of this drink is that the cassava is cooked, chewed and cooked again, then sit to room temp fermentation with the bark.
that way, enzymes present in saliva breaks down the starch into fermentable sugars, this principle was also originally used in Japan to make rice sake.
french colonizer Jean de Lery reported that he tried to prepare "clean cauim", grinding and cooking cassava without the chewing process, but it didn't work.

sounds a bit lousy, but this entire preparation (and clay jars manufacture as well) was devoted only to beautiful virgin and "pure" women.
hence the Iracema secret, the only who knew how to make cauim, and why she was called "the honey lips"...
Jose de Alencar wrote the Iracema romance around 1865, those traditions were still more alive at the time.

interesting that the bark alone is active this way, notice it's not cooked in the process, just soaked.

 

[TOXSIN]

May I ask what the pro to this would be? Not in a rude way just curious why the idea arose?