personally i think we're fucked, and i also don't see how this planet could sustain 9 billion meat-eating humans anyway if one kilo of meat requires about 6 to 7 kilo's of vegetable's... I mean you'd need to grow enough vegetable's to be able to supply 63 billion people with proteins, right?
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Cancun...is it gonna help?
- Thread starter polytrip
- Start date
ElusiveMind
Rising Star
Ya, the vegetable to meat conversion is quite ridiculous... especially when vegetables and fruit taste amazing. :d The problem that I see is that the world is slowly becoming "Americanized" in diet. I know a few people who have recently moved from Japan and their diet when they first arrived was heavily based on rice and vegetables with smaller portions of fish, etc for meat. A year later though they have rice and vegetables as sides and meat is main aspect of the meal now. (mainly steak and prime roast are their favourites now :lol: )
They still make amazing sushi and sashimi though when we have dinners together
EDIT: I missed your entire question :shock: No I don't think its too late to change, but the first step in change in action
They still make amazing sushi and sashimi though when we have dinners together
EDIT: I missed your entire question :shock: No I don't think its too late to change, but the first step in change in action
Opiyum
Rising Star
polytrip said:
I think a majority of the population of the planet survives mostly on rice and potatoes and other various starches and vegies of that nature. Protein to most of the population is a very rare thing to find at the dinner table.
I'm no expert on global nutrition and what it takes to feed everyone....I guess all I'm saying is that it's not quite as bad as you say. I don't know where world population is nowadays but I would feel pretty confident in saying that only 10-15% of the population eat protein(meat, poultry, fish etc) daily. Maybe less...
Meat tastes more amazing than most of the vegetables. And converting meat to vegetables is a very clever thing where no edible vegetables (or seeds) can be easily grown, think of the Scottish highlands or the Alps where only grass, pretty much inedible, grows in abundance.ElusiveMind said:
yeah inf but the meat from those areas isnt being served for the locals only. The meat industry doesnt only use naturally grassy areas, instead there's gigantic deforestated areas for making fields, plus the fact that those animals are very often fed with 'supplement' food (a lot of GM soya grown in big unsustainable monocultures for example, which on top of it all are being transported across great distances)...
I dont think there's something magically and inherently bad about eating meat, but its obviously unsustainable the way the industry is.
I dont think there's something magically and inherently bad about eating meat, but its obviously unsustainable the way the industry is.
I think most people do eat some protein weather or not they eat any meat..for one thing, human require about 3% protein(or amino acids) comparativly to build proper muscle, dont listen to me just take a look at the protein ratios available in mothers milk available to infants(which is when we grow the fastest), and 3% is easily available through fruits and vegetables(when raw anyway) as long as you eat enough to get all the calories you need..another funny thing about the whole meat industry is that they call it "protein"..they always talk about food as these groups..protein, carbs etc..meat is like 70-80% fat..so it is predominantly a fat source before it is a protein source. Fat was important in larger quantities for certain groups of people, like the native americans in canada for instance, since they had to endure such cold winters in most areas and lets face it, the plant life here cannot sustain a vegan lifestyle year round without modern technologies.
But we dont need to eat meat anymore..people can and should eat the way they feel so if you want to eat meat than eat meat, but in no way do we NEED meat. Concidering the magority of the population gets way more than enough protein overeating meat, meat eaters would prob be doing the rest of the planet a favour by eating less meat though and adding other things into they're diet..not everyone that eats meat overeats it though, just lots of them.
But we dont need to eat meat anymore..people can and should eat the way they feel so if you want to eat meat than eat meat, but in no way do we NEED meat. Concidering the magority of the population gets way more than enough protein overeating meat, meat eaters would prob be doing the rest of the planet a favour by eating less meat though and adding other things into they're diet..not everyone that eats meat overeats it though, just lots of them.
VisualDistortion
Rising Star
polytrip said:
All good things come to an end. Think of it this way, in billions of years the sun will expand into a red giant and burn every piece of biological life off of this planet. Nothing humans ever did, good or bad, will have ever of mattered. From the most beautiful moments of compassion to the most heinous acts of evil, it didn't actually matter. Sure, eventually all human will die off and we will have destroyed the ecosystem as we know it, but there is no universal law that says humans must exist and the ecosystem must exist as it does. Even if we damage the planet so much that biodiversity is cut by 90%, it will eventually rebound due to speciation.
it is probabily better to believe we are not fucked and have some optimism than to believe we are fucked..if we are fucked than we are fucked either way, at least if you are optimistic and have a positive take on things you will be less stressed and prob contribute more to the possability of us not being fucked.
cker
Rising Star
I agree we're not sustainable in the ways we currently live. There's plenty of non-meat food sources that would ease the stress we are putting on the planet but we (in America) like meat and that means we're going to have it....in excess. I'm not a vegitarian but I'm under the impression that removing meat from our diet would (temporarily) stop excess CO2 emissions and thus global warming.
Meat or no meat we still have a problem. There's too many humans on this planet and we don't have a sensible way of limiting population. It takes about 2000 Watts per day (minimum) for a human to exist in today's world. A vegan diet represents about 1000 Watts and if we add another 1000 Watts, we can have lighting, transportation etc. This is an average number for all people on the planet today. In the 'West', we consume much more on average.
With 6.5 billion people on the planet today, we generate about 14 tera-Watts of energy to meet that demand. At this rate, we are snuffing out the planet with CO2 emitted from fossil fuel. Given current population growth rates, there will be about 10 billion people on the planet by 2050. Also, many of the world's population are being lifted out of poverty and are starting to increase average energy consumption. To meet the 2050 energy demand, we need to double energy production by 2050 (to about 30 tera-Watts). No one knows how to make that happen without burning coal and clean coal is a myth. Even the cleanest coal fired commercial generation plants release 100% of their CO2 into the air.
We are out of time and Cancun is way too little, way too late. Most of us think of this problem as a political issue. It's not. This is a technology issue and there is no free lunch. Can we solve the problem? Maybe, but at this moment our priorities are focused on other issues. It's easiest for our politicians let the problem wait for another day.
Sorry for the rant. I know, I know...it's not nice to think about. I'm completely sick of politicians talking about this issue and I have a recommendation. A few years ago I was able to hear a talk given by a chemistry professor from Cal Tech. The talk was very enlightening since it was the 1st time I ever heard anyone discuss the physical reality of our energy situation...with facts. His talk is online, but I must warn you. The talk is long and pretty technical. Without some science training, it may be hopelessly boring. The professor may have a slightly arrogant demeanor, but I assure you, he is a very nice man 1 on 1.
If you have the patience, please enjoy:
website:
nsl.caltech.edu
click on:
JPL von Kármán Lecture Series Feb 2008 (with or without captions)
You need realplayer to view the video talk
PS: Our children are fucked. Our planet doesn't care. It will survive just fine with or without us.
Meat or no meat we still have a problem. There's too many humans on this planet and we don't have a sensible way of limiting population. It takes about 2000 Watts per day (minimum) for a human to exist in today's world. A vegan diet represents about 1000 Watts and if we add another 1000 Watts, we can have lighting, transportation etc. This is an average number for all people on the planet today. In the 'West', we consume much more on average.
With 6.5 billion people on the planet today, we generate about 14 tera-Watts of energy to meet that demand. At this rate, we are snuffing out the planet with CO2 emitted from fossil fuel. Given current population growth rates, there will be about 10 billion people on the planet by 2050. Also, many of the world's population are being lifted out of poverty and are starting to increase average energy consumption. To meet the 2050 energy demand, we need to double energy production by 2050 (to about 30 tera-Watts). No one knows how to make that happen without burning coal and clean coal is a myth. Even the cleanest coal fired commercial generation plants release 100% of their CO2 into the air.
We are out of time and Cancun is way too little, way too late. Most of us think of this problem as a political issue. It's not. This is a technology issue and there is no free lunch. Can we solve the problem? Maybe, but at this moment our priorities are focused on other issues. It's easiest for our politicians let the problem wait for another day.
Sorry for the rant. I know, I know...it's not nice to think about. I'm completely sick of politicians talking about this issue and I have a recommendation. A few years ago I was able to hear a talk given by a chemistry professor from Cal Tech. The talk was very enlightening since it was the 1st time I ever heard anyone discuss the physical reality of our energy situation...with facts. His talk is online, but I must warn you. The talk is long and pretty technical. Without some science training, it may be hopelessly boring. The professor may have a slightly arrogant demeanor, but I assure you, he is a very nice man 1 on 1.
If you have the patience, please enjoy:
website:
Energy - Lewis Research Group
click on:
JPL von Kármán Lecture Series Feb 2008 (with or without captions)
You need realplayer to view the video talk
PS: Our children are fucked. Our planet doesn't care. It will survive just fine with or without us.
Can we save it? or, Is it too late? has there been too much damage done? Is the damage reversable?
No. We can not save it. Yes it is too late.
Why you ask?
Because WE as a people do not care enough, we are selfish. We humans as a whole, only care about instant gratification.
In theory, the damage that humanity has done to the earth can be changed. The problem goes back to the fact that we humans, as a whole, are not willing to sacrifice. Period.
It would take a global effort at this point.
Allow me to be a little sarcastic for a moment and ask-
What do we fukkin care anyway? We are getting ours. The real bad shit is still a couple of generations away. We'll all be dead, so...... So fukkin what! Lets all get while the gettins good.
and besides......
Why should I have to give up my $70,000.00 gas guzzeling Ford F-450? I earned it and I can afford it.
If my kid doesnt want to eat his veggies? So fukkin what if people in Africa are starving.
I think you all get what I mean.
Its sad.
There is an even bigger problem going on now than just the selfish consumer attitude.
State sponsored destruction of the earth out of pure greed for natural resources.
USA
CHINA
RUSSIA
BRAZIL
Just to name a few. Goverment sponsored Ecco rapists and terrorists.
Sorry for all the gloom and doom folks, but them are the facts and no single individual or nation can change it now.
Thats all folks!
No. We can not save it. Yes it is too late.
Why you ask?
Because WE as a people do not care enough, we are selfish. We humans as a whole, only care about instant gratification.
In theory, the damage that humanity has done to the earth can be changed. The problem goes back to the fact that we humans, as a whole, are not willing to sacrifice. Period.
It would take a global effort at this point.
Allow me to be a little sarcastic for a moment and ask-
What do we fukkin care anyway? We are getting ours. The real bad shit is still a couple of generations away. We'll all be dead, so...... So fukkin what! Lets all get while the gettins good.
and besides......
Why should I have to give up my $70,000.00 gas guzzeling Ford F-450? I earned it and I can afford it.
If my kid doesnt want to eat his veggies? So fukkin what if people in Africa are starving.
I think you all get what I mean.
Its sad.
There is an even bigger problem going on now than just the selfish consumer attitude.
State sponsored destruction of the earth out of pure greed for natural resources.
USA
CHINA
RUSSIA
BRAZIL
Just to name a few. Goverment sponsored Ecco rapists and terrorists.
Sorry for all the gloom and doom folks, but them are the facts and no single individual or nation can change it now.
Thats all folks!
VisualDistortion
Rising Star
Do we want to save it? Is it worth saving? In the end it never really mattered anyways.
VisualDistortion said:
lol, no it never really did. Obviously not.
Its not some new breakthrough revelation that we are destroying our home and our species hopes of survival. Man has been aware of this for several decades now and has done nothing. Actually man has escalated his raping and pillaging.
Man lies, man knows what he is doing is wrong and yet he lies to make excuses.
I am embarassed.
ElusiveMind
Rising Star
Ah, well if we are talking about the planet as a whole and not just vegetables/meat then hells ya we are fucked. :?
It's quite amusing but also realistic..... WE ARE THE FIRST CIVILIZATION TO EVER COVER THE EARTH AND "WORK AS ONE"....
(side note: no such thing as working as one for we are greedy ass bastards right now... what im getting at is that we are reliant of each other)
We always look back on previous civilizations (the Mayans, etc) but this is the first time the human race has ever accomplished a civilization this large.... so we have nothing to learn from.
Our way of life will end, either earlier in 2012 (for any known unknown/reason ), or with the drawn out, slaughter of our existence that will occur when we run out of gas/oil, water, food transportation will stop, diseases will spread, and the human population will shrink drastically to almost nothing.
@ fractal enchantment
it's always better to be the optimistic one, but we are currently living in an optimistic world....and by being optimistic.... we have become ignorant (ignorance is bliss)....and when u are in bliss....why the fuck would you care??....its a shame.... ..... i wish people would wake the fuck up and realize this disaster that will happen....
It's quite amusing but also realistic..... WE ARE THE FIRST CIVILIZATION TO EVER COVER THE EARTH AND "WORK AS ONE"....
(side note: no such thing as working as one for we are greedy ass bastards right now... what im getting at is that we are reliant of each other)
We always look back on previous civilizations (the Mayans, etc) but this is the first time the human race has ever accomplished a civilization this large.... so we have nothing to learn from.
Our way of life will end, either earlier in 2012 (for any known unknown/reason
), or with the drawn out, slaughter of our existence that will occur when we run out of gas/oil, water, food transportation will stop, diseases will spread, and the human population will shrink drastically to almost nothing.@ fractal enchantment
it's always better to be the optimistic one, but we are currently living in an optimistic world....and by being optimistic.... we have become ignorant (ignorance is bliss)....and when u are in bliss....why the fuck would you care??....its a shame....
..... i wish people would wake the fuck up and realize this disaster that will happen....
My grandfather told my dad many many years ago and my dad told me many years ago that mankind is a dead end race. How's that for an optimistic upbringing?
I agree with another poster... weather it be the sun expanding into a red giant... or some much more near term 'correction' mother nature will again show mankind that he does not know shit nor does he have any real control. Just watch man try to stop an earthquake or a volcanic eruption and report back to me....
I agree with another poster... weather it be the sun expanding into a red giant... or some much more near term 'correction' mother nature will again show mankind that he does not know shit nor does he have any real control. Just watch man try to stop an earthquake or a volcanic eruption and report back to me....
BananaForeskin
I Eat Plant Magic
I definitely think it's possible, it would just take a greater change than we can consciously make.
Right now, a large chunk of the world wants the American lifestyle, or something like it. And that chunk is very quickly working to obtain it. However, it would not be possible for everyone, at the CURRENT population, to live the American lifestyle... and I'm not just talking about eating tons of meat and driving gas-guzzlers. I'm talking about using electricity from the grid, buying stuff from grocery stores and driving at all.
I wish I could find it, but I read an article for a college course about a family who tried to cut back on their eco-footprint. They wanted to cut down on their carbon emissions to the global average, which was about a quarter their starting point. They proofed their house against energy loss, ate less meat, drove only when VERY necessary (as in once a week), got rid of their dryer, bought some solar panels, started a garden, etc... though as hard as they tried, they couldn't get their carbon emissions down to the global average. Couldn't get it close. Simply being in America and still conforming to any vague definition of normal life was way too much...
If 6 billion people want to live SUSTAINABLY on the earth, we're going to need to be smarter about land use, live in some huts and herd yaks for a living. Or perhaps it'd work if some apocalypse killed off half the population, although that might be a temporary setback.
It's definitely possible to save the earth, I just think it would require some sort of total destruction of modern society.
Right now, a large chunk of the world wants the American lifestyle, or something like it. And that chunk is very quickly working to obtain it. However, it would not be possible for everyone, at the CURRENT population, to live the American lifestyle... and I'm not just talking about eating tons of meat and driving gas-guzzlers. I'm talking about using electricity from the grid, buying stuff from grocery stores and driving at all.
I wish I could find it, but I read an article for a college course about a family who tried to cut back on their eco-footprint. They wanted to cut down on their carbon emissions to the global average, which was about a quarter their starting point. They proofed their house against energy loss, ate less meat, drove only when VERY necessary (as in once a week), got rid of their dryer, bought some solar panels, started a garden, etc... though as hard as they tried, they couldn't get their carbon emissions down to the global average. Couldn't get it close. Simply being in America and still conforming to any vague definition of normal life was way too much...
If 6 billion people want to live SUSTAINABLY on the earth, we're going to need to be smarter about land use, live in some huts and herd yaks for a living. Or perhaps it'd work if some apocalypse killed off half the population, although that might be a temporary setback.
It's definitely possible to save the earth, I just think it would require some sort of total destruction of modern society.
Yeah, i know. But meat is becoming more and more popular for some reasons that probably lie beyond the scope of my grasp.Opiyum said:
Sooner or later we have to accept that the economy isn't gonna grow forever. I think it is possible to be optimistic in a way, and yet to accept your destiny.fractal enchantment said:
Sooner or later we're gonna die so learning to die in dignity is not such a bad thing.
Wasting our time with gathering expensive toys is not gonna do us any good.
So you're right. We may not be fucked. But we have to learn something about honesty.
cker
Rising Star
Our childern are fucked if WE don't act to change some fundamental ways of living. We don't have to give up all aspects of our modern living, but we have to stop treating the planet's limited resources as if they are limitless...right now. The global 'free' market isn't set up to do this, rather, it's set up to exploit. Meanwhile, we sit around and listen to blabbering politicians who believe that Noah's Ark is a fact and that Darwin was a heretic.
We need to act now on a large scale. This isn't just about avoiding meat, or recycling, or driving a fuel efficient car (even though all of those help). The global economic system doesn't punish CO2 polluters and doesn't reward CO2 eliminators. In the US, most of our electricity comes from coal, the dirtiest fuel. We have to stop that now and yet there isn't an economic incentive to make it happen. (Note: When you hear people talk about clean coal, they're talking about reducing heavy metals and sulphur emissions, not CO2.) Coal is the worst fuel.
China is building 1 large coal fired electric plant per month to sustain their economic growth. No matter how much we recycle, it's hard to offset that scale of CO2 emissions growth and the Chinese aren't going to stop building these power plants any time soon.
Meanwhile, the fossil fuel corporations spend about $150,000,000 per year to convince us that manmade warming is a theory and clean coal is real. The alternative energy research funding in the US is largely controlled by the US Department of Energy which historically is more interested in building nuclear bombs than solving our energy problems.
We have a way out of this mess which is to massively invest in solar power. The goal should be to develop solar power systems that produce energy at a lower cost than coal. If it has to include subsidies to get started, fine. The energy from the sun exists. We could put people back to work and also provide a future. It's a hard, expensive project but a challange to save humanity is a good thing. It sure is better than fighting endless war. But, we don't have the will. Someone has convinced us that fighting endless wars over increasingly scarcer resources is a better path. WTF?
So sorry to rant on like this. I'm done now.
We need to act now on a large scale. This isn't just about avoiding meat, or recycling, or driving a fuel efficient car (even though all of those help). The global economic system doesn't punish CO2 polluters and doesn't reward CO2 eliminators. In the US, most of our electricity comes from coal, the dirtiest fuel. We have to stop that now and yet there isn't an economic incentive to make it happen. (Note: When you hear people talk about clean coal, they're talking about reducing heavy metals and sulphur emissions, not CO2.) Coal is the worst fuel.
China is building 1 large coal fired electric plant per month to sustain their economic growth. No matter how much we recycle, it's hard to offset that scale of CO2 emissions growth and the Chinese aren't going to stop building these power plants any time soon.
Meanwhile, the fossil fuel corporations spend about $150,000,000 per year to convince us that manmade warming is a theory and clean coal is real. The alternative energy research funding in the US is largely controlled by the US Department of Energy which historically is more interested in building nuclear bombs than solving our energy problems.
We have a way out of this mess which is to massively invest in solar power. The goal should be to develop solar power systems that produce energy at a lower cost than coal. If it has to include subsidies to get started, fine. The energy from the sun exists. We could put people back to work and also provide a future. It's a hard, expensive project but a challange to save humanity is a good thing. It sure is better than fighting endless war. But, we don't have the will. Someone has convinced us that fighting endless wars over increasingly scarcer resources is a better path. WTF?
So sorry to rant on like this. I'm done now.
pau
Rising Star
I was going to post my two cents on this subject, but after I read it it was so depressing that I erased it and simply added this sentence.
Maybe some uber-powerful aliens will show up at the last minute and fix things.
Or maybe we can develop a really effective synchronized hyperspace event that can do the same thing.
Maybe some uber-powerful aliens will show up at the last minute and fix things.
Or maybe we can develop a really effective synchronized hyperspace event that can do the same thing.