I dont believe anyone can smoke 150mg without passing out before they finish it..even without a GV. Posting doses like that is a bad thing to do here IMO. Dont give new people the idea that they should shoot for 150mg.
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Changa: A smoking blend containing Ayahuasca and other herbs
- Thread starter chocobeastie
- Start date
I just dont think its possible to inhale 150mg efficiently. The way I see, if you're inhaling 150mg, then: a) large part of your dmt is being burnt or melting inside your smoking apparatus and/or b) Youre taking it VERY spread out so you're not efficiently inhaling that amount.
What possible problems do you see for people aiming at 150mg, fractal, appart from the fact that they are obviously wasting a lot of dmt? Its pretty clear to me that people would black out before they could get anywhere near that amount anyways, if it was done efficiently.
What possible problems do you see for people aiming at 150mg, fractal, appart from the fact that they are obviously wasting a lot of dmt? Its pretty clear to me that people would black out before they could get anywhere near that amount anyways, if it was done efficiently.
not problems..i can just imagine someoone that never tried DMT before..reading that and thinking 150mg is a normal dose to shoot for if you want a breakthrough and being completely overwhelmed.
Maybe they were referring to experience of acacia extracted spice, since that is what I think it used most in aus..I dunno if acacia extracts are more or less impure on adverage than mimosa..
Maybe they were referring to experience of acacia extracted spice, since that is what I think it used most in aus..I dunno if acacia extracts are more or less impure on adverage than mimosa..
Good points frac
chocobeastie
Rising Star
remember this is my original quote.
and that I am talking of "fully immersive experience" where one leaves the body and experiences the inexpressable.
Some people need up to 200mg to get to THAT experience. This is not a recommendation to straight up trying to smoke that much DMT. Only to say, if you are not getting the results you are wanting from 50mg (or less), then go higher, and you might need to go much higher to get to where you feel you need to go.
I know people who have smoked much more than 200mg!
Most acacia extracts are around 80-90% pure, so there are not major differences in purity. Plus, some extracts can be even qualitatively stronger weight for weight, than pure DMT, because of many other highly potent and unresearched alkaloids.
If people are smoking 100+mg, they are just not vaporizing it effectively, im sure of it. People do not need 200mg to leave the body and experience the inexpressible. I know this from personal experience (I had tried a lot of methods before and did need higher doses), but also I had a couple of people who swore they were nearly immune to DMT, then try the GVG and get their souls blown off into hyperspace and come back crying and thanking me.
Get them friends a GVG and a torch lighter, a few tries to learn it, and see for yourself (I know you dont want it and express yourself against the GVG but regardless of personal identification with smoking methods, if several long time users who tried many other methods swear by one method and how many orders of magnitude more effective it is, dont you think its worth it to at least try it, if theres the possibility?).
I feel its a big waste and if one has a long term relationship with this molecule, it will just be many wasted doses of DMT over the years. Its not my DMT though, do as you please. Please dont take this as a personal attack, I know you are experienced with these substances, this is meant as a purely constructive criticism
Get them friends a GVG and a torch lighter, a few tries to learn it, and see for yourself (I know you dont want it and express yourself against the GVG but regardless of personal identification with smoking methods, if several long time users who tried many other methods swear by one method and how many orders of magnitude more effective it is, dont you think its worth it to at least try it, if theres the possibility?).
I feel its a big waste and if one has a long term relationship with this molecule, it will just be many wasted doses of DMT over the years. Its not my DMT though, do as you please. Please dont take this as a personal attack, I know you are experienced with these substances, this is meant as a purely constructive criticism
chocobeastie
Rising Star
Joedirt wrote
Thanks. Truly, it is something so much bigger than me which I feel quite detached from even. These days, unless I am in Australia, people often don't believe me if I tell them, which I find kind of amusing actually.
Something like this doesn't help or change anything about the inner work you have to do in terms of self-esteem and so on.
Joedirt, Thing is each plant within each species is different. The nature of its molecule *and its effect upon human beings* is not adequately explained by the basic atomic structure we assign.
DMT from really younger plants for example just doesn't do the job.
If you compare the DMT from the root bark to the tree bark. The root bark is always going to "better".
You can only do these kinds of tests if you have access to the plants themselves and in Australia there is a large network of people who work with these plants.
I just wanna say there is no question in my mind about this issue, and I've been working these plants for over a decade and I know people who have been working with them for over two decades.
As for the difference in DMT species to species, that is not at all a contentious issue among researchers here. That DMT is different between individual trees, is accepted as fact among researchers here.
So the molecule is like an information carrier (i.e. transmitter) which comes from the tree. It contains information in the way a crystalline chip does. So when you put it into your brain/nervous system, you are going to be connected to the intelligence of the plant it came from. And each plant has a different intelligence and "personality", which you can communicate with. You find this with all sorts of plants. For example, even though all mushrooms contain psilocybin, there are vast differences between the qualitative experiences from different mushrooms over the world.
I would also suggest also that each individual mushroom has a character and quality which cannot at all be explained by an understanding that different mushrooms must be reduced down to a static two dimensional molecule which does not possess any internal qualities or attributes.
Reductionism is good for beginning to understand things, but the finger is not the moon, the map is not the territory etc.
Thanks. Truly, it is something so much bigger than me which I feel quite detached from even. These days, unless I am in Australia, people often don't believe me if I tell them, which I find kind of amusing actually.
Something like this doesn't help or change anything about the inner work you have to do in terms of self-esteem and so on.
Joedirt, Thing is each plant within each species is different. The nature of its molecule *and its effect upon human beings* is not adequately explained by the basic atomic structure we assign.
DMT from really younger plants for example just doesn't do the job.
If you compare the DMT from the root bark to the tree bark. The root bark is always going to "better".
You can only do these kinds of tests if you have access to the plants themselves and in Australia there is a large network of people who work with these plants.
I just wanna say there is no question in my mind about this issue, and I've been working these plants for over a decade and I know people who have been working with them for over two decades.
As for the difference in DMT species to species, that is not at all a contentious issue among researchers here. That DMT is different between individual trees, is accepted as fact among researchers here.
So the molecule is like an information carrier (i.e. transmitter) which comes from the tree. It contains information in the way a crystalline chip does. So when you put it into your brain/nervous system, you are going to be connected to the intelligence of the plant it came from. And each plant has a different intelligence and "personality", which you can communicate with. You find this with all sorts of plants. For example, even though all mushrooms contain psilocybin, there are vast differences between the qualitative experiences from different mushrooms over the world.
I would also suggest also that each individual mushroom has a character and quality which cannot at all be explained by an understanding that different mushrooms must be reduced down to a static two dimensional molecule which does not possess any internal qualities or attributes.
Reductionism is good for beginning to understand things, but the finger is not the moon, the map is not the territory etc.
chocobeastie said:
How many of these researchers did double blind test?
chocobeastie
Rising Star
I'm don't doubt vapourising is a better method. I very rarely smoke DMT. But will try the VG one day I am sure and people I know who use them say they are great!
Like I said, *some people* need up to 200mg (when smoked through a bong with herbs). These people are very rare. But they exist. Maybe they would need much less when vapourised.
All I'm saying is this sort of information spreads slowly and old habits die hard. Australia has quite an established DMT smoking culture that is over 20 years old. I am not one of these people who like old habits and do not have not any identification with any smoking method. The last few dozen times I smoked DMT was Changa in a joint and that remains my favorite method, and probably will remain so
Like I said, *some people* need up to 200mg (when smoked through a bong with herbs). These people are very rare. But they exist. Maybe they would need much less when vapourised.
All I'm saying is this sort of information spreads slowly and old habits die hard. Australia has quite an established DMT smoking culture that is over 20 years old. I am not one of these people who like old habits and do not have not any identification with any smoking method. The last few dozen times I smoked DMT was Changa in a joint and that remains my favorite method, and probably will remain so
chocobeastie
Rising Star
Wine tasters know their wine. They internally understand, detect, experience subtle differences in nature and internal content. They are in contact with the plant. The plants communicate with them.
chocobeastie said:I'm don't doubt vapourising is a better method. I very rarely smoke DMT. But will try the VG one day I am sure and people I know who use them say they are great!
Like I said, *some people* need up to 200mg (when smoked through a bong with herbs). These people are very rare. But they exist. Maybe they would need much less when vapourised.
All I'm saying is this sort of information spreads slowly and old habits die hard. Australia has quite an established DMT smoking culture that is over 20 years old. I am not one of these people who like old habits and do not have not any identification with any smoking method. The last few dozen times I smoked DMT was Changa in a joint and that remains my favorite method, and probably will remain so
Cool, I understand you! I mean, also there is the price involved which is a big barrier to buy the GVG.. If I didnt have one yet, right now for example I couldnt buy one... Im glad I did last year when I had the chance.
So when you smoke changa in a joint, do you roll the joint of pure changa or do you roll with weed? I tried a couple of times smoking changa in joints, it was interesting in nature to share with friends but we went through a big quantity of changa without anybody really getting 'there' (though it was some funny laughs and nature getting specially 'bright' if you know what I mean)
chocobeastie said:
I guess this means none?
You must also know very well how often we humans think we know something when in fact we are mistaken (optical illusions, placebo effect, misinterpretation, etc etc ). Psychology has shown this countless times.
So its only natural that I will ask this question about blind tests, because it would very easily prove or disprove your hypothesis that researchers can notice the difference between DMT from different sources. I wrote some proposed protocol for it which could also serve the purpose on this case. If any of your friends are interested, I think it would be a very informative experiment to do.
Considering all we know about pharmacology and chemistry, it would be easy to explain why DMT is DMT regardless of source (supposing there are no active impurities that would affect it). If one says DMT is not always the same and that it stores some information from plants, then it the burden of proof would be on the person to come up with tests to show otherwise or at the very least some plausible arguments to explain how that would work.
Personally I can have COMPLETELY different trips from the same batch in the same setting and same night even. I have no idea how some people can claim to know differences between batches and even be so sure it isnt self suggestion (or not even consider it as a possibility), if no experiments were done in this regard.
..woah!, isn't this the 6,666th post..?
re: how to guauge differences between 'batches'
duration & metaloblic differences (as well as physical changes) could give clues, but can also differ between individual people.
one example, experienced ayahuasca drinkers may be more easily able to notice the onset of MAOinhibition effects, & even ingest specific test foods
to test this.
i agree, however, that the same batch of puredmt can do very different things on different occasions in the same user, so this is one of those
things there'll probably never be complete consensus on.
as for Changa, it sounds really nice (thanks for new inventions),
i just can't see why you'd want to mix precious tree extract with much else, just personal i guess. i'd probably be more into it if the dmt came
from huge pastures of phalaris (with free range bovine staggering happily...)
re: how to guauge differences between 'batches'
duration & metaloblic differences (as well as physical changes) could give clues, but can also differ between individual people.
one example, experienced ayahuasca drinkers may be more easily able to notice the onset of MAOinhibition effects, & even ingest specific test foods
to test this.
i agree, however, that the same batch of puredmt can do very different things on different occasions in the same user, so this is one of those
things there'll probably never be complete consensus on.
as for Changa, it sounds really nice (thanks for new inventions),
i just can't see why you'd want to mix precious tree extract with much else, just personal i guess. i'd probably be more into it if the dmt came
from huge pastures of phalaris (with free range bovine staggering happily...)
chocobeastie
Rising Star
Before Changa we had straight joints of Ayahuasca vine which we sprinkled DMT on top of. These days a 25% blend does the job by itself, just rolled in small rollie papers. You pass it round a couple of times and it increases in intensity. Smoke enough and you will have nice CEV's. People generally stay silent. You can sing. You can dance.
Well, it is quite simple. The plants are sentient. There is an overlighting deva of the plant. When people are talking about Ayahuasca they might talk about "mama ayahuasca". But each batch of Ayahuasca vine has different qualities and a different personality which people very commonly communicate with. None of this has that much to do with its chemical or pharmacological nature. The difference between Ayahuasca that is 10 years old and ayahuasca that is 100 years old is very vast indeed!
It is the same with plants which contain DMT. Each plant has a different personality. It is actually a living entity which can communicate with the person who smokes or ingests it.
And it can communicate with the person, because those neurotransmitters, (DMT IS a neurostransmitter) were in a plant, transmitting information within the plant. When you put those neurotransmitters into the human, the human is connected to that information. That information is a kind of quantum non-local information.
Sounds simple enough doesn't it? Pharmacology is even simpler! It says DMT is DMT and that is all! I say, where are the double blind studies to prove that DMT is DMT?
Well, it is quite simple. The plants are sentient. There is an overlighting deva of the plant. When people are talking about Ayahuasca they might talk about "mama ayahuasca". But each batch of Ayahuasca vine has different qualities and a different personality which people very commonly communicate with. None of this has that much to do with its chemical or pharmacological nature. The difference between Ayahuasca that is 10 years old and ayahuasca that is 100 years old is very vast indeed!
It is the same with plants which contain DMT. Each plant has a different personality. It is actually a living entity which can communicate with the person who smokes or ingests it.
And it can communicate with the person, because those neurotransmitters, (DMT IS a neurostransmitter) were in a plant, transmitting information within the plant. When you put those neurotransmitters into the human, the human is connected to that information. That information is a kind of quantum non-local information.
Sounds simple enough doesn't it? Pharmacology is even simpler! It says DMT is DMT and that is all! I say, where are the double blind studies to prove that DMT is DMT?
..i'm just curious how many people that use Changa have vaped dmt crystals pure?
Do many people prefer not to experience the full blown rush & dissolving reality that the pure vape route is more likely to produce? Are the herbs making things more 'relaxing' for people? If dmt is purified & vaped correctly it should not be unduly harsh on throat/lungs.
Would like to see a poll/survey on some of this...
Do many people prefer not to experience the full blown rush & dissolving reality that the pure vape route is more likely to produce? Are the herbs making things more 'relaxing' for people? If dmt is purified & vaped correctly it should not be unduly harsh on throat/lungs.
Would like to see a poll/survey on some of this...
chocobeastie
Rising Star
Changa was originally designed for sub-breakthrough experiences. The vine tends to hold focus the DMT in the human body, whereas, with the crystal it is harder to have such experiences. With Changa, those experiences last longer and you experience the alchemy of the plants in the blend.
The best way you can improve your Changa is to get better quality vine, better quality herbs. It doesn't need to be strong. Strength is not the point. It is the alchemy and ratios of herbs, the intent behind it as dorje has pointed out here numerous times.
In regards to extracted vine alkaloids. I've never done this. But when you extract the alkaloids out of the whole plant, you are taking something from it. It is always better to use the whole plant if possible, or simulate the whole plant. In Spygyrics for example, they burn the ash of the plant and then put it back into the tincture which amplifies its effect significantly. If you are extracting alkaloids from vine or vine leaf, you could try burning the plant material to an ash and then blending it back into the herbs.
Nen, The herbs like passionflower and so on, have a sedative effect, a relaxing effect which counterpoints the tryptamine intensity and helps calm it down and the system deal with that.
The best way you can improve your Changa is to get better quality vine, better quality herbs. It doesn't need to be strong. Strength is not the point. It is the alchemy and ratios of herbs, the intent behind it as dorje has pointed out here numerous times.
In regards to extracted vine alkaloids. I've never done this. But when you extract the alkaloids out of the whole plant, you are taking something from it. It is always better to use the whole plant if possible, or simulate the whole plant. In Spygyrics for example, they burn the ash of the plant and then put it back into the tincture which amplifies its effect significantly. If you are extracting alkaloids from vine or vine leaf, you could try burning the plant material to an ash and then blending it back into the herbs.
Nen, The herbs like passionflower and so on, have a sedative effect, a relaxing effect which counterpoints the tryptamine intensity and helps calm it down and the system deal with that.
chocobeastie said:
Spot on and thanks for reiterating that bruddha. There is an alchemy and "vegetalismo" practice in making changa and working with it that defies rational thought but still requires it.
One thing that's been slightly peturbing to me lately is that I've noticed that a lot of people seem to ignore the simpler methods of prep, over complicate, and yet also STILL think they are experts while it takes years of developing your knowledge base to get a firm grasp on what your doing just so you can admit you've no idea what the hell your doing! And that's just with prep. I blame things like the electric sheep bs for over simplifying changa honstly...
Also...
What we've noticed on the morning changa meditation thread is that people tend to go wrong thinking that they need to have some sort of "break through" super dose, or that they need to smoke or treat changa like they do dmt. You don't. You really don't. Get your changa strong enough in harmalas and you don't even need strong doses of spice. Measuring out harmalas or even your spice?! Wha?!?!! Your really not even feeling what you can do with this medicine! You hardly need measurements! 1:1 ratio is bad enough lol! If your a good cook you never need a recipe.
As I was saying though, with changa you can get really good results from A good build up of harmalas smoked. Once the levels of Mao are sufficiently inhibited in the skull goo your really able to just keep working with it for hours. It doesn't have to be like smoking spice alone at all.
..smokable ayahuasca, i get it, interesting..
they derive all their learning from the plants, and work in union with and for the plant teachers. Some are married exclusively to the
spirits of particular plants. They are trusted by many in particular because, if true to path, their agenda is the same as the plants..
Only some (a minority) of curanderos/maestros etc. earn the "vegitalisimo" title...it is said to be the most difficult or disciplined of the paths..
I sincerely hope this is how those who harvest/circulate plant material endeavour to work...
..respect to the plant teachers...
The South American term "vegitalisimo" means a rare and highly trusted category of "maestro"(ayahuascero) or shaman, indicating that
they derive all their learning from the plants, and work in union with and for the plant teachers. Some are married exclusively to the
spirits of particular plants. They are trusted by many in particular because, if true to path, their agenda is the same as the plants..
Only some (a minority) of curanderos/maestros etc. earn the "vegitalisimo" title...it is said to be the most difficult or disciplined of the paths..
I sincerely hope this is how those who harvest/circulate plant material endeavour to work...
..respect to the plant teachers...
Shoalin.... It's not elitist... people way over think things here. My only point.
Nen888
I've studied with vegetalistas and curanderos... And that's one way they look at the practice. We can look at vegetalismo as also an intuitive and animist practice of working with plants, a translation of that practice could be animistic herbalism. But I'm not trying to split hairs. I do however hope as well that people take that path as seriously as Amazonian vegetalistas.
Nen888
I've studied with vegetalistas and curanderos... And that's one way they look at the practice. We can look at vegetalismo as also an intuitive and animist practice of working with plants, a translation of that practice could be animistic herbalism. But I'm not trying to split hairs. I do however hope as well that people take that path as seriously as Amazonian vegetalistas.
