CITLO DMT Benzoate [A CISLO® experiment]

[Loveall]

Will try dissolving in dilute acids, thanks Hailstorm.

DWZ, I didn't try microwave but I did try to dissolve it over a boiling heat bath in PG and still didn't work. Do you think the microwave is still worth it?

Microwaves sometimes make stuff happen that plain heat doesn't. The plus side is, even if it doesn't work it was literally just a few seconds for the attempt.

Ok, gave it a shot. The gel-like DMT benzoate e-juice (first image) dissolved after a few seconds in the microwave (second image). However one day later it congealed again (3rd image).

 

[downwardsfromzero]

So, we could say it might be suitable for immediate use? Not sure what the consequences of repeated microwaving might be, but on the face of it it appears that this could be a workaround for DMT benzoate vaping. Just nuke the juice briefly before each session?

 

[Hailstorm]

Maybe try propylene glycol or glycerol (glycerin) instead of water? Considering the solubility of DMT benzoate in ethanol it could be soluble in those solvents as well. Both are widely used for vaping.

 

[Loveall]

So, we could say it might be suitable for immediate use? Not sure what the consequences of repeated microwaving might be, but on the face of it it appears that this could be a workaround for DMT benzoate vaping. Just nuke the juice briefly before each session?

I think you could do it for one session (microwave, transfer, smoke). Once any leftovers are solidified in the pod it would be stuck and not microwable due to the pod metal, I think.

 

[Loveall]

Maybe try propylene glycol or glycerol (glycerin) instead of water? Considering the solubility of DMT benzoate in ethanol it could be soluble in those solvents as well. Both are widely used for vaping.

I tried both PG and VG without success.

 

[Hailstorm]

Maybe try propylene glycol or glycerol (glycerin) instead of water? Considering the solubility of DMT benzoate in ethanol it could be soluble in those solvents as well. Both are widely used for vaping.

I tried both PG and VG without success.

DMT benzoate is sparingly soluble in PG: 1 g DMT benzoate dissolves in ~50 mL propylene glycol at room temperature. It takes a lot of time to dissolve, however, possibly due to the high viscosity of the solvent.

This means you can dissolve ~160 mg DMT benzoate in a 8 mL vaping tank like Vaporesso iTank, likely more if you heat it up a bit. What concentration would be ideal for vaping DMT, considering DMT benzoate is ~60% as potent as DMT freebase?

...Another route to explore is Polysorbate 80 (or 60, 40, 20) as a surfactant to see if it increases the solubility.

 

[Loveall]

Maybe try propylene glycol or glycerol (glycerin) instead of water? Considering the solubility of DMT benzoate in ethanol it could be soluble in those solvents as well. Both are widely used for vaping.

I tried both PG and VG without success.

DMT benzoate is sparingly soluble in PG: 1 g DMT benzoate dissolves in ~50 mL propylene glycol at room temperature. It takes a lot of time to dissolve, however, possibly due to the high viscosity of the solvent.

This means you can dissolve ~160 mg DMT benzoate in a 8 mL vaping tank like Vaporesso iTank, likely more if you heat it up a bit. What concentration would be ideal for vaping DMT, considering DMT benzoate is ~60% as potent as DMT freebase?

...Another route to explore is Polysorbate 80 (or 60, 40, 20) as a surfactant to see if it increases the solubility.

To be practical after sublingual harmalas, about ~20% concentration, so ~10x more concentrated than in raw PG.

Thanks for reporting that DMT benzoate solubility in PG is 2%!

 

[artificer]

Since 1gm DMT freebase dissolves in 1mL PG without much of a challenge, why go through trouble of using DMT benzoate for PG, even if there was a way to make it work? I haven't messed with the PG vape long enough to learn its' shelf life first hand, but I've heard anecdotally the freebase/PG juice has no noticeable loss in potency after multiple months... anyone care to corroborate or contest this?

Is DMT benzoate infused changa more appealing than FB changa for any reason?

I'll be openly transparent of my lack of experience as to the shelf life of the various forms of DMT (fb, fumarate, benzoate), as I challenge the reasoning of pursuit to use DMT benzoate for burning/vaping. It would be nice to establish (or reference) some FB shelf life data here, i.e. if freebase DMT was stored in an airtight container with O2 absorbing and desiccant packets, will it ever degrade/decompose?

I ask these questions because I just finished extractions, with 100% of it currently in freebase form, and I'm trying to decide what direction to go from here, to last me a long time.

Regardless of answers to my questions above, kudos and thank you to the work done here

 

[Loveall]

Since 1gm DMT freebase dissolves in 1mL PG without much of a challenge, why go through trouble of using DMT benzoate for PG, even if there was a way to make it work? I haven't messed with the PG vape long enough to learn its' shelf life first hand, but I've heard anecdotally the freebase/PG juice has no noticeable loss in potency after multiple months... anyone care to corroborate or contest this?

Is DMT benzoate infused changa more appealing than FB changa for any reason?

I'll be openly transparent of my lack of experience as to the shelf life of the various forms of DMT (fb, fumarate, benzoate), as I challenge the reasoning of pursuit to use DMT benzoate for burning/vaping. It would be nice to establish (or reference) some FB shelf life data here, i.e. if freebase DMT was stored in an airtight container with O2 absorbing and desiccant packets, will it ever degrade/decompose?

I ask these questions because I just finished extractions, with 100% of it currently in freebase form, and I'm trying to decide what direction to go from here, to last me a long time.

Regardless of answers to my questions above, kudos and thank you to the work done here

The main benefit of DMT benzoate is ease of extraction to an immediately pure product.

On the other hand, it is not always easy to get very uniform DMT freebase. Even pure freebase DMT has several forms, from xtals white to gooey yellow/orange. Add to that possible plant stuff and the appearance variables add up to confusion, which is not good for sensitive electronic devices dialed in at a certain temperature.

The benefits depend on the administration form:

- Flame: Freebase, even the dirty kind, works well: simply burn it all up at high temps; . DMT benzoate is not recommended because of benzene concerns.
- e-mesh: Need cleaner freebase. Freebase in different forms will mess up the more precise mesh temps. Dirty freebase will tarnish the mesh. We have good reasons to think DMT benzoate will work well.
- e-juice: Gooey freebase can mess up the viscosity and/or clog up the filter, very pure freebase is needed to avoid these issues long term. Pure DMT benzoate would be great if we could get it to dissolve.

Finally: DMT salts are near physiological pH and generally more pleasant to inhale. They could even be more easily absorbed and bioavailable if they follow the trend shown by nicotine salts vs nicotine freebase.

 

[artificer]

Finally: DMT salts are near physiological pH and generally more pleasant to inhale.

This, all by itself, has got my attention

 

[Hailstorm]

...In other news, DMT benzoate is poorly soluble in PEG 200: 1 g could not fully dissolve in 50 mL. As usual, it dissolved with heating.

So far DMT benzoate has been soluble in polar solvents as follows: ethanol >> PG > PEG 200 > VG at room temperature. I am not sure what other solvents are suitable for vaping. MCT oil did not work. Chatbots are recommending triacetin and 1,3-propanediol, but neither looks promising.

It may just be necessary to freebase it?

 

[Loveall]

I tried this today, starting with raw plant matter with a friend. It was fun!

Details:

- Mixed 100g MHRB, 150ml water, 25g lie
- Pulled 4 times with ~200ml, 160mlx3 toluene. Decanting was easy! First pull was naturally warm from the lie dissolving, them the pulls tended to room temp.
- Extract was filtered and immediately salted with excess benzoic acid
- Clouds quickly formed and shaking made them crash to small white xtals at room temp
- No orange stuff was seem, just pure white xtlas (DMT benzoate candidate). Purity (by look/color) is amazing
- Xtals where cought in a filter and rinsed with Naphtha
- Filtered extract was put on the freezer. More xtals are crashing as expected from Brennendes Washer's report on DMT benzoate solubility in Toluene. The excess benzoic acid may help precipitate product.

The dried product should be vapable in e-mesh. Gonna try loading with a gel capsule to make this practical, will report back on all that.

Yield is ~2% for freebase equivalent, which is great.

Thanks Merkin for leading the charge on this. I don't know why I don't get any yellow/red stuff

 

[_Trip_]

Nice work, love the crystals.

On a side note BA holds benzonic well unsure if it holds dmt FB. Will test and update soon.

 

[Loveall]

Nice work, love the crystals.

On a side note BA holds benzonic well unsure if it holds dmt FB. Will test and update soon.

Thanks.

They vaped great on the emesh temp controlled at 210C, could be lower temp too I guess. Nice effects and very smooth. Amazingly smooth, actually. Completely tasteless. Pretty amazing

To bad the e-mesh is a pain to load, otherwise this would be perfect and super easy.

I wish we could figure out how to make an ejuice from DMT benzoate.

 

[merkin]

Thanks Merkin for leading the charge on this. I don't know why I don't get any yellow/red stuff

You're just way better at this than me! I was mostly following Max Ion tek for the first part as I have done before to get fumarate then switched it to your direct salting. So in essence didn't do it 'lazily'. The red stuff probably came from the heating cycles.

I like your method much better. My failure with the limonene kinda pushed me back to the 'traditional' methods, but I will definitely go the paste way in future.

Your fluffy crystal result is actually what I was expecting. Good to hear about the vaping success so I am definitely up for another try.

 

[Loveall]

Thanks Merkin

A very important thing about the lazy STB methods is that the plant material needs to be ground very well. Otherwise the long acid heat treatments are needed.

I'm gonna try a conversion to free-base to make e-juice. Similar to the fumarate conversion TeKs:

- Make a paste with DMT benzoate and sodium carb
- Pull paste with heated naphtha
- Evap solvent. Naphtha should leave behind nice xtals I think

Then make a citrate salt e-juice.

If it works, this will be the way for me

I'm glad e-mesh works for some, and that DMT benzoate vapes cleanly at low temp, but I'm too lazy to deal with the loading of the spice on a narrow metal strip before every hit and get flustered when half of it falls off.

Carrying 2g of DMT in an 6ml e-juice tank ready to provide 200+ smooth hits at the push of a button is what a lazyman like me enjoys

Cheers

 

[Hailstorm]

Here's an effortless way to convert DMT benzoate to freebase (assumes you have a hotplate magnetic stirrer, vacuum pump, sintered glass filter funnel, and vacuum desiccator):

- in a small beaker, dissolve DM benzoate in water (heating to 40-50 °C will be required)
- while stirring, add relatively concentrated aqueous NaOH dropwise, white DMT freebase will crash out
- move the beaker to the refrigerator once the suspension is alkaline enough (pH = 11-12)
- after it cools down, vacuum-filter
- wash residual NaOH off with ice-cold concentrated ammonium hydroxide
- dry DMT freebase under vacuum over something like 4Å molecular sieves

If you minimize the exposure of DMT freebase to air (especially when it is warm) it will be snow-white. Obviously it can be recrystallized from heptane, etc.

 

[famine]

Here's an effortless way to convert DMT benzoate to freebase (assumes you have a hotplate magnetic stirrer, vacuum pump and a sintered glass filter funnel, and vacuum desiccator):

- in a small beaker, dissolve DM benzoate in water (heating to 40-50 °C will be required)
- while stirring, add concentrated aqueous NaOH dropwise, white DMT freebase will crash out
- move the beaker to the refrigerator once the suspension is alkaline enough (pH = 11-12)
- after it cools down, vacuum-filter
- wash residual NaOH off with ice-cold concentrated ammonium hydroxide
- dry DMT freebase under vacuum over something like 4Å molecular sieves

If you minimize the exposure of DMT freebase to air (especially when it is warm) it will be snow-white. Obviously it can be recrystallized from heptane, etc.

The assuming part made me laugh hahah. Also I recommend using 15% NaOH not concentrated. No need for constant stirring too. Just agitation is sufficient

 

[Brennendes Wasser]

Nice effects and very smooth. Amazingly smooth, actually. Completely tasteless.

So based on that evaporation tests I already wrote I can only imagine DMT*H+ + Benzoate evaporating as a pair and while doing so keeping their ionic state as an explanation to the experiments. At the same time wrote this would go against my sense of physical chemistry, but well it is what it is :?

In case that this would be true and what we inhale would be DMT*H (+) and Benzoate (-) then it would also explain why it feels rather smooth: Neither component can react as a Base or as an Acid. Therefore no irritation. Probably the Amine is causing this at times unpleasant chemical-ginger-like burning at tongue and throat. Cannot react as a base if it is not in freebase-form obviously.

Something I never tried was the taste of DMT-Benzoate. Maybe it is also close to tasteless because of that? Just other amines like MDMA still taste absolutely terrible even when not being a Freebase ...



Also those DMT Benzoate crystals seem to always be pretty perfect in colour and shape. While freezing out Freebase from Hexane you might get first a fast precipitating yellow layer that will grow white crystals on top, the Benzoate always looks just perfect and voluminous. Probably the charge of the molecule pushing away too close neighbours, so no pi-stacking occurs which would be a main reason for yellow colour + different crystal geometry across the precipitate.

 

[Hailstorm]

The assuming part made me laugh

Nexus is read by beginners, including visitors who search for "convert DMT benzoate to freebase" and click on links – sometimes years or even decades later. Stating assumptions saves them time and frustration. For instance, if you simply say "filter," people might try to filter the highly alkaline mixture through paper; if you mention "vacuum pump," those who don't have one will likely scroll past the comment, and so on.

I recommend using 15% NaOH not concentrated

Why 15%?

I prefer using more concentrated NaOH solutions because they don't increase the mixture's volume to the extent that a different beaker is required for further pH adjustment.

Just agitation is sufficient

Heating on a hotplate naturally comes with stirring. It prevents local overheating (when the freebase comes into contact with hot glass). It is effortless (as promised), and it is safer.