wake and bacon
Rising Star
LOL... now I'm confused... I don't mind being shirtless... ravaging my mind however, I tend to leave that to the spice... :lol:
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Confessions of a Spice Junkie
- Thread starter Bill Cipher
- Start date
wake and bacon
Rising Star
One thing that can possibly prevent one to misconstrue the intent of your message in the future might be to always keep in mind that you simply cannot offer an end-all-to-be-all path to 'victory' in anyones life. You can only hope that one is able to take something out of what you say and be able to use it to find their own so-called path to where they want to end up. End up really isn't the right term... maybe where they want to BE is better... yes...
Did you happen to have a problem trying to get minscontrue-ity into 'proper' words?? I literally sat there for about 3 minutes thinking... how the fuck am I going to use this properly... maybe it's the doj...
Did you happen to have a problem trying to get minscontrue-ity into 'proper' words?? I literally sat there for about 3 minutes thinking... how the fuck am I going to use this properly... maybe it's the doj...
I'm not trying to make more waves, I was actually trying to make a bit of a joke about it.
But if you insist I'll elaborate, as that just struck me as some incredibly selfish statements.
I'll try to keep this short...
First:
Why be married if you just going to hide things & lie to each other? (not telling the whole truth, is just the same as a blatant lie, especially in the case of a married couple!)
Marriage is supposed to be a union of two people, right?
(I'm referring to the ideal behind being together in marriage in the first place here, not the legal paperwork-bullshit-trap that marriage has turned into in our "I got's to get mine" society)
Hiding things from each other brews mistrust, that leads to resentment & so on till you hate each other.
It's just plain disrespectful of the person you are supposed to be loving.
When there are children involved this becomes an even worse thing because they can feel the separation between their parents, which leads to the child thinking they have done something to cause it, which leads to more fucked up adults!!
Hiding drug use from your partner is just plain stupid!! To a non drug user, it doesn't matter what drug you are doing, or why! People who have made drugs a normal part of their life tend to forget about that.
Art made a great decision in not continuing to do this & instead getting closer to his family!!
Think about how much time you spend thinking about the DMT experiences you've had, or what they really are, or how much they mean to you. That is a big thing for most people, a life effecting thing. That would be quite a huge chink in the armor of most marriages. Wanting to share it with your loved ones but being unable to even talk about it would be a huge pink elephant in the room!!
Not right away, but give it a little time and....
Second:
Would it be better if both of those people tried to take that cake, like a room full of 3 year old's with only one toy truck?
If you where actually wanting to teach those people something in that situation, you would share the item with them, like you suggested first.
Instead, you take the item & "take satisfaction" in thinking they actually wanted it & were just trying to be polite to you. Damn them!!
Then you try to justify your actions by thinking your teaching the world something. And you are, your teaching those around you that you do not deserve their generosity!
BTW, that look on their face, is probably them wondering why they are hanging out with such an inconsiderate jerk in the first place.
There are too many people who see having manners & be polite as being weak (or I guess being a martyr...) and try to take advantage of that. I feel this is one the giant problems with society today, the feeling of entitlement that so many have!
"If I can get it, I'll take it", or "If it's free it's for me". No matter at who's expense.
It gets old, really.
Sooooo, I don't know how much of that actually applies to you directly, maybe none of it.
This is just what I felt when I read what you wrote, It just sounds like more of a passive/aggressive dig at other people than anything else to me.
Another mask, this one is used to hide the one wearing it from themselves though.
If I'm way off, then I apologize.
WS
Thank you for explaining.
True love is letting someone do what makes them happy, as long as it's not hurting others. She is not being harmed by his smoking DMT. It isn't bad for you. Spiritually, it's enriching. It isn't physically addictive. It doesn't make you beat your family or waste your money. It doesn't make you passive aggressive towards your family for being denied simple pleasures. MANY families are full of underflows of resentment. I'd rather he smoked DMT in secret every now and then, than his relationship become poisoned by his dissatisfaction.
I was in a relationship with a girl who tried to control me, I could feel it, I began resenting it, I finally started being myself and we broke up. She wouldn't let me be myself. Like many people, she was manipulative- trying to shape those she 'loved' into her view of what they should be. Instead of loving them for who they are. Read the last story in Salinger's 'Nine Stories' and you'll find a wonderful passage on that subject. She wouldn't let me blossom into the person I am now. And despite what you think about me (caused by my HONESTY with you, how ironic!), I have shaped my life around my strict personal ethics. I have made 'sacrifices'... I could be rich by now... but they were never really sacrifices, I was never martyring myself for show, I was doing what made me happy. If martyring yourself to others really does make you happy, do it, you're free to, but don't expect praise or gratitude from others just for doing your thing, that would be arrogant to presume that's what you deserve from them.
If he would sneak off every night and drink a pint of beer, because his wife was a teetotaler, would you be so hard on him? Or if they were vegetarians and he would sneak out for a bacon sandwich (many men do this, at least the ones who are pressured into vegetarianism by their girlfriends do). DMT is not addictive. But he felt he was getting obsessed with it, so he stopped. What other 'drug' would LET you stop so easily? Those who sneak out for cigarettes every night don't quit so easily.
If I was in this situation, I would engineer that her and I watched a really good documentary about ayawaska by 'accident'. Then I would say, hey, isn't that great how this stuff cures addicts? Etc. Then ask if she would be okay with him trying it to cure him of his addictive personality an other porblems. Lead her gently into the mindset that THIS IS NOT DRUGS, but something positive. You could call this 'deceptive', maybe it is, but it's better than him coming clean and their marriage collapsing. He is entitled to that which makes him happy without harming others. Maybe it's only the fact that he feels forced into secrecy that is harming his relationship with his wife. Who knows? We don't, we're not there.
I guess if he entered this marriage with a 'contractual' agreement to not smoke DMT ever again, then she is entitled. But if he enjoys this in his life, maybe he could try to soften her then renegotiate terms, so they can both be happy.
If it's someone who isn't pious- ie not using the game for manipulation, maybe they just don't feel they deserve it- then I'll accept, but laugh and say "haha you want it really, don't you? Here, have it, I don't actually want it, I was just messing with you because you were martyring yourself. Don't be a martyr, you deserve it".
And if it's someone who is wanting me to have it, and I want it, I'll take it, and we're both happy.
As for people thinking I'm a jerk, I don't want them hanging around with me anyway... well that's another reason to be yourself- who wants to be friends with someone who doesn't like the real you? In life, there will ALWAYS be people who don't like you, and nothing you could do could change that. Even Jesus had his fair share of enemies! I'm not comparing myself here, I'm just saying no-one escapes being disliked.
Genuine politeness is a joy.
Practical politeness helps society run smoother.
Manipulative politeness is when there's something between the lines- "I'm asking if you want to come along with us, but actually I don't want you to and I want you to say no, so I'll ask you but make you uncomfortable in some other way and hopefully that'll put you off". Read some Tolstoy, those awful old aristocrats were the masters at this. They spent their entire lives reading between the lines, thrying to decipher through all the DISHONEST GAMES.
I was being provocative, but that was to get the point across (and 10g of catuaba was turning me into a lion! :lol: )
I'm not offended, I was expecting people to disagree. I enjoy controversial discussion, we need to question taboos. I just didn't expect one line of insults and prejudice (the 'only child' dig is harsh on a lot of people, I was surprised by that). I actually thought you were referring to the bit about infidelity (which I'm personally not into, but I can imagine arguments to justify such actions... that's a big can of very interesting worms).
Why be married if it means denying yourself things you are ethically entitled to ("Do your will when it harms no other" )? Beautiful experiences that make life shine... that someone who "loves" you is denying you.warrensaged said:
True love is letting someone do what makes them happy, as long as it's not hurting others. She is not being harmed by his smoking DMT. It isn't bad for you. Spiritually, it's enriching. It isn't physically addictive. It doesn't make you beat your family or waste your money. It doesn't make you passive aggressive towards your family for being denied simple pleasures. MANY families are full of underflows of resentment. I'd rather he smoked DMT in secret every now and then, than his relationship become poisoned by his dissatisfaction.
This doesn't mean you own each other. You don't have the right to everything inside another person's mind. To every small pleasure. Owning someone is slavery, not partnership. There's nothing worse than being in a relationship with an overbearing partner, for example. The best relationships are relaxed one, where there is trust in each other so no need to know every little detail.warrensaged said:
Not necessarily so severe! I agree that it's not great for him to be hiding this when he does it every night. What is sad is that he feels he has to... if she would really not understand, then the fault is as much his wife's as it is his.warrensaged said:
It's only disrespectful by YOUR view of what's 'right'. How do you know you're right? Again, my point of why should you be compelled to have your mind and every action possessed by another? Would Jesus be fussed if he found out Mary Magdalene had been smoking DMT on the sly? She finds it spiritually enlightening, but is worried that Jesus might be against 'magic'. But Jesus is a dude, so in this case she's worrying unduly, and Jesus'll forgive her, he wonders why she thought she had to hide it, but he realises why and he understands. He'd probably smile and ask her to load him up. I've only started using Jesus as an example because most people on here are from Christian backgrounds so I figured they'd relate to him.warrensaged said:
Why is there separation? This separation is just as likely if Art begins to feel REPRESSED by his wife, unable to do something harmless that he enjoys- DMT.warrensaged said:
I was in a relationship with a girl who tried to control me, I could feel it, I began resenting it, I finally started being myself and we broke up. She wouldn't let me be myself. Like many people, she was manipulative- trying to shape those she 'loved' into her view of what they should be. Instead of loving them for who they are. Read the last story in Salinger's 'Nine Stories' and you'll find a wonderful passage on that subject. She wouldn't let me blossom into the person I am now. And despite what you think about me (caused by my HONESTY with you, how ironic!), I have shaped my life around my strict personal ethics. I have made 'sacrifices'... I could be rich by now... but they were never really sacrifices, I was never martyring myself for show, I was doing what made me happy. If martyring yourself to others really does make you happy, do it, you're free to, but don't expect praise or gratitude from others just for doing your thing, that would be arrogant to presume that's what you deserve from them.
I am not a drug user. Neither is SWIM. No more than someone drinking a cup of coffee or having a pint of beer. I'm surprised to hear that propogandic term DRUGS used here. And I suspect you're deliberately using it to instill the 'evil' undertones of it to strengthen your argument. DMT is not a 'drug' to SWIM and I suspect a lot of people here. It is a sacrament to the spiritual, and a tool to others.warrensaged said:
If he would sneak off every night and drink a pint of beer, because his wife was a teetotaler, would you be so hard on him? Or if they were vegetarians and he would sneak out for a bacon sandwich (many men do this, at least the ones who are pressured into vegetarianism by their girlfriends do). DMT is not addictive. But he felt he was getting obsessed with it, so he stopped. What other 'drug' would LET you stop so easily? Those who sneak out for cigarettes every night don't quit so easily.
We don't know enough about the situation to say. He thinks it's the right thing, and I don't see much harm in him pursuing that course for now, so I'm all for it and wish him all the best.warrensaged said:
So the problem with what you just said is actually that his wife is perceived as intolerant. She may well be justified in being cautious if he used to be a wife-beating crackhead, but we don't know their history and can only work with what we know.warrensaged said:
If I was in this situation, I would engineer that her and I watched a really good documentary about ayawaska by 'accident'. Then I would say, hey, isn't that great how this stuff cures addicts? Etc. Then ask if she would be okay with him trying it to cure him of his addictive personality an other porblems. Lead her gently into the mindset that THIS IS NOT DRUGS, but something positive. You could call this 'deceptive', maybe it is, but it's better than him coming clean and their marriage collapsing. He is entitled to that which makes him happy without harming others. Maybe it's only the fact that he feels forced into secrecy that is harming his relationship with his wife. Who knows? We don't, we're not there.
I guess if he entered this marriage with a 'contractual' agreement to not smoke DMT ever again, then she is entitled. But if he enjoys this in his life, maybe he could try to soften her then renegotiate terms, so they can both be happy.
No, I said people who want cake should say so, then share it. Be honest, not play stupid politeness games. I thought you were all for honesty?! OR is dishonesty ok when it's for pointless politeness? (As opposed to meaningful politeness)warrensaged said:
I would only really do this to someone who was being pious. Yes, I do believe pious types should have their mask psychologically unveiled for their own good, and if actually presenting you with the opportunity to do so, I'll accept it.warrensaged said:
If it's someone who isn't pious- ie not using the game for manipulation, maybe they just don't feel they deserve it- then I'll accept, but laugh and say "haha you want it really, don't you? Here, have it, I don't actually want it, I was just messing with you because you were martyring yourself. Don't be a martyr, you deserve it".
And if it's someone who is wanting me to have it, and I want it, I'll take it, and we're both happy.
As for people thinking I'm a jerk, I don't want them hanging around with me anyway... well that's another reason to be yourself- who wants to be friends with someone who doesn't like the real you? In life, there will ALWAYS be people who don't like you, and nothing you could do could change that. Even Jesus had his fair share of enemies! I'm not comparing myself here, I'm just saying no-one escapes being disliked.
I don't take advantage of anyone. I never have in my entire life. And I am actually known to be a polite person. There are two types of politeness- genuine, practical, and manipulative.warrensaged said:
Genuine politeness is a joy.
Practical politeness helps society run smoother.
Manipulative politeness is when there's something between the lines- "I'm asking if you want to come along with us, but actually I don't want you to and I want you to say no, so I'll ask you but make you uncomfortable in some other way and hopefully that'll put you off". Read some Tolstoy, those awful old aristocrats were the masters at this. They spent their entire lives reading between the lines, thrying to decipher through all the DISHONEST GAMES.
I'd say there wasn't any passivity there, the critique was pretty active... it was all out in the open. That was me completely unmasked, showing ALL my thoughts of the moment. OF THE MOMENT, yes I guess I exagerrated about my level of cake-acceptance. I was accepting every side of my personality- embracing my shadow, so it doesn't fester inside me and DOESN'T leak out as passive aggression, or resentment... the things that can smash relationships more effectively than inconsequential secrets.warrensaged said:
I was being provocative, but that was to get the point across (and 10g of catuaba was turning me into a lion! :lol: )
I'm not offended, I was expecting people to disagree. I enjoy controversial discussion, we need to question taboos. I just didn't expect one line of insults and prejudice (the 'only child' dig is harsh on a lot of people, I was surprised by that). I actually thought you were referring to the bit about infidelity (which I'm personally not into, but I can imagine arguments to justify such actions... that's a big can of very interesting worms).
Right, and if your hiding something form your partner because you can, when he/she fully trusts you, you are taking advantage of that trust & therefor not worthy of it! That stuff adds up exponentially & it will eventually blow up in your face.
It's not a matter of wanting to own somebody or every thought in their mind, it's the other side entirely!!
It's wanting to give yourself completely to that other person, unselfishly!! Not just taking from that person when & what you can.
Seeing things from their point of view, not because they force it (that's just selfish on their part), but because you want to make them happy, for them.
It's disrespectful because your trying to hide something from someone you are calling your partner, possession(s) has nothing to do with it. It's all about equality...
Yes, these is no difference there, it's still creating gaps in the trust, no matter what the action is.
And I'm not being hard on Art, I have a ton of respect for what he posted!! I think his decision was incredibly mature.
Not just thinking of how his DMT use is effect him alone, right here & now. But realizing that he has a partner who deserves his total honesty & a child who deserves everything he can give!!!!
And how having a secret past time might not physically hurt either of them today, but how this kind of thing grows like a fungus into the fucked up relationships that are so goddamn common anymore!!
I'm hard your idea that he should think of only himself & how his wife's beliefs are fucking up his good time!!
The thing is, he is not alone in this world anymore, he made the decision to have a partner to share himself & his life's experiences with and a child who is not able to support or protect himself & should now come first, before even his own enjoyment.
Of course this is only my opinion, but I think the current state of divorce & the kids shooting up schools & the whole "I'm so much more important than everyone else" attitude, is proof enough that kids are not getting the right kind of support & discipline at home, from their parents.
This does not mean that a married couple has to be together every second, do everything together, or even agree on everything. It just means that if your partner is opposed to something you enjoy, rather than keep doing it in secret, you need to take stock of your priorities & figure out if you want to smoke DMT by yourself, or spend your life with the person you love.
If you truly are in love with this person, you wouldn't want to keep doing something that would make them feel this way, just as much as they shouldn't want to keep you from something you deeply enjoy! Thinking of the other person on the same level of importance as yourself is key to staying with someone for any serious length of time.
Anyway, I feel it needs to be said that from what I've read here, you seem to be very concerned with what you can get from others, or what they might be able to take from you. Most people I know who think this way are much more manipulative than they think they are. As they justify every action by trying to teach everyone something, or they are always subconsciously looking for their due, in every situation.
Only getting that from your statements here though.
I find it incredibly interesting how you relate being generous & polite to being a martyr.
Granted, there are those people out there, but at least in my local, I do not feel this is more common than just being polite to be polite... BTW I live in a large city, plenty of jerks around...
Most people get their perception of other people's actions from they're own thought processes, during their own actions.
Thinking that other people do things for the same reasons as themselves & must be thinking the same thing that they would, while doing these things.
So do you yourself act polite to others, just to get credit for it?
One last thing, DMT is a drug, you may use it is a spiritual way, but it is a chemical that when added to your body in relatively large amounts, causes a change in body or mind. Right? So is heroin or crack!!
Now I personally think there is a huge difference between narcotics & psychedelics.
But once again, gotta look at things from more than just your personal point of view to get a full picture. Whether or not it's morally correct, is not the issue, not everyone cares about using psychedelics & to most of those who have no experience with drugs there is no difference!! This is because of the way the Gov't has forced their bullshit about drugs on society.
But I have to assume (or hope) that Art is married with children because his life consists of more than just using & researching psychedelics.
So to muddy up the waters of his marriage & demonize his partner for not being hip to the drug scene, is like throwing away your car, because the cigarette lighter doesn't work.
Now if using drugs, whether psychedelic or otherwise, is your whole life, then you'd better find a partner who shares your ideals in the first place, or it's never going to work anyway!
BTW, I think it's great that you know exactly what Jesus would think & do in that situation.
WS
What I meant here is that they should trust you not to do anything that would harm them. THAT'S trust. Wanting to know every detail is controlling, even suspicious. He's not harming anyone smoking DMT, so he's alright with me.Ohayoco said:
My view of the situation (as I've already explained but I feel you're not listening) is that he shouldn't really be hiding this from her seeing as he's doing it every night, but I don't judge him for it, because DMT is not something that should be forbidden so she is also wrong to forbid him it.
I have a friend who takes mescaline and DMT with SWIM when he visits (about every month or so), and he doesn't tell his wife because he doesn't think she'd understand. I'm cool with that, because it's not harmful to take these two enteogens, actually they've had a healthy effect on me, and studies confirm this. If his wife's phobic of these sacraments then that's her problem, she's more unreasonable. Sure it'd be better if he just explained to her that it's harmless, but that's his choice to make, not mine. I'd never be in his situation anyway because I personally wouldn't go out with a girl who would deny me that which doesn't hurt her (I've learnt from that mistake).
What if she was a hypochondriac, and told him he HAD to wash his hands after urinating? He knew that she was being irrational, because your penis has the least germs on it, and even if you did piss on them somehow- urine is sterile, unlike your hands which are crawling with germs! Wouldn't you agree that it's no big deal if he tells her he washes them, but often doesn't bother? Sure, it'd be better if he helped her get over her ridiculous phobia, but maybe she's not ready to accept she needs to, maybe he thinks it's easier to have a little secret. He accepts HER unreasonableness and humours it, because he loves her. I know this may trivialise it in some people's eyes, but this wouldn't sound trivial if you WERE a hypochondriac. Just as his secret smoking WOULD sound trivial to her if she used to be a DMT-head but never told him about that little chapter in her life.
IF you want to DEMAND complete ownership of all the memories, feelings and every action of your spouse, that's fine, go and find someone equally controlling to marry you. But don't force your concept of what makes a healthy relationship onto everyone else! I won't deny my wife her little secrets. I think little secret pleasures can be very healthy and rewarding, saving some people from that feeling of being 'trapped' in a relationship.
In the grander scheme of things, we come into this world alone, and we leave alone. Drink life. As long as you don't harm others, you have the right to drink. Or, deny yourself, if that's what you enjoy. Me, I'm going to drink. And I'll find someone to love who likes to drink from the same cup, rather than mismatch myself with a controlling type.
I'm not going to address your other points, because I did that last time but you didn't seem to have really thought about what I'm saying. I say this because you're making some really puzzling assumptions about me. In your eyes I'm Mr Take-take-take, which is beyond me. I get the feeling you've already made up your mind that I'm an 'asshole', and you're going to carry on just skim reading my posts for bits to pick at and opportunities to repeat yourself. Or you're trying to save face, or just fancy an argument. I don't know. Let's just agree to disagree, because I don't think this argument is going anywhere.
Let's ask everyone else instead. Am I an 'asshole'?!
Funny, I was thinking the same exact thing.
I guess I didn't think this was an argument, but a diametrically apposed discussion. Like I said I'm only basing my thoughts here on what I'm reading above.
Just one last question, are you, or have you been married before? How long?
Genuinely curious here, don't want you to think I'm not being PC enough.
Cheers,
WS
Ok I would like to address this point though. OK, what do YOU think he'd do, when he walked in on Mary Magdalene having a secret toke of DMT?warrensaged said:
Would he damn her into the fires of hell?
Would he shop her to the authorities to 'save her' from the menace of DMT?
Would he say he didn't want to see her anymore for smoking DMT behind his back?
Would he slap her about to teach her a lesson?
Would he be upset that she had hidden this from him, but forgive her after a pious speech?
Would he be upset but forgive her genuinely?
Or would he smile and be cool with it, seeing as she wasn't hurting him and it makes her happy?
Seems like a no-brainer to me...
I don't really believe this to be relevent, because you can't become an expert by being married once- then you're only an expert in YOUR marriage, not in other people's. And if you've been married a few times, then I guess you're no expert anyway. But as you asked:warrensaged said:
I am not married- I don't believe that two people need a piece of paper to show commitment.
I am 30 years old, straight, and in that time I have had two long term relationships. In between the two I tried free love too.
So seeing as you wanted me to tell, how about you? I'm guessing you entered a relationship/got married young, and are still with that woman/man... something like that, because otherwise I doubt you'd be asking.
wow.
this thread has truly blown shit wide open! very, very interesting....
relationships are tricky and NOBODY i've met can spell out the exact recipe for a "successful" one. religious fundamentalists would have you act according to a specific set of rules and guidelines that, though it may ensure you never get divorced, would hardly guarantee one a "happy, fulfilling" one. i ACTUALLY PERSONALLY KNOW Art and his lady and can tell you directly, WS, that you are a bit off-base in this particular instance. you seem to have a very black and white attitude toward a relationship and most people don't measure up to such stark standards. truth is, one "bag of life experiences" meets up with another and the two set forth to create a third entity.... a "life" together. they do not melt into one another nor do the set aside their respective personal responsibilities to try to improve and grow as individuals throughout this union. either may very well choose to explore a mode of growth that they know the other will not understand or approve of.....but should that truly stop them from exploring it...if....say...they could do it and keep it to themselves? if, say, in THEIR mind they felt that it would ultimately BENEFIT all parties involved?
when i was in my 20's my father loaned me some money to pay for food, etc. while i was at school....instead of buying food, i invested it in something i thought was righteous at the time. a week later, i had produced a 500% return, gave my father a check for a truckload more than he had loaned me and never needed to ask for a dollar again.
was i wrong for doing what i did WS?
before you "share" anything with ANYONE, it is always wise to ask the three following questions:
1. is it true?
2. is it necessary?
3. is it kind?
this was picked up at a 12-step meeting years ago that i attended with an alcoholic friend. it really sat with me. the rule is- if ALL 3 aren't a "yes"...it is usually best to keep it to yourself.
Art found the spice to be of a profoundly righteous spiritual magnitude. more than he was capable of opening up to given his current life situation. he explored as much as he could then realized that he simply COULD NOT share this sacrament or it's exploration with his wife because, FOR HIM, it was neither kind nor necessary. though there were undeniable "gifts" acquired from it's use, Art simply couldn't find a way to "work" with the spice in a way which "gave" him something to bring back and "add" to his relationship. he simply was not in a position to be able to relax and "figure it out".
so he stopped.
WS- try to be a little more compassionate for others' life situations. you have NO CLUE who Art is or what his life is like.....it all begins with compassion. any healing. any growing. the process begins with having compassion for where you are NOW. AND I'M REFERRING TO THE "ALL-ARE-ONE" YOU when i say that.
....and for what it's worth...and NOT to be provocative or anything...but i DO take offense to referring to the spice as "a drug". you can do your best Webster and try to "literalize" what it does, etc....but i GUARAN-DAMN-TEE you offended more than just myself and Oyahoco with that derogatory label. i for one will ALWAYS see DMT as a PLANT ENTHEOGEN. "theos" meaning god...."entheo" meaning "god within" and "gen" meaning "to look or see". "to see the god within". THAT is what DMT is for me. a tool to help me connect and learn from the god-self that is within us all.
Art started to see and use the spice as a drug. that is why he stopped.
if you truly see DMT as a drug, why are you still using it?
LOVE AND GRATITUDE!
this thread has truly blown shit wide open! very, very interesting....
relationships are tricky and NOBODY i've met can spell out the exact recipe for a "successful" one. religious fundamentalists would have you act according to a specific set of rules and guidelines that, though it may ensure you never get divorced, would hardly guarantee one a "happy, fulfilling" one. i ACTUALLY PERSONALLY KNOW Art and his lady and can tell you directly, WS, that you are a bit off-base in this particular instance. you seem to have a very black and white attitude toward a relationship and most people don't measure up to such stark standards. truth is, one "bag of life experiences" meets up with another and the two set forth to create a third entity.... a "life" together. they do not melt into one another nor do the set aside their respective personal responsibilities to try to improve and grow as individuals throughout this union. either may very well choose to explore a mode of growth that they know the other will not understand or approve of.....but should that truly stop them from exploring it...if....say...they could do it and keep it to themselves? if, say, in THEIR mind they felt that it would ultimately BENEFIT all parties involved?
when i was in my 20's my father loaned me some money to pay for food, etc. while i was at school....instead of buying food, i invested it in something i thought was righteous at the time. a week later, i had produced a 500% return, gave my father a check for a truckload more than he had loaned me and never needed to ask for a dollar again.
was i wrong for doing what i did WS?
before you "share" anything with ANYONE, it is always wise to ask the three following questions:
1. is it true?
2. is it necessary?
3. is it kind?
this was picked up at a 12-step meeting years ago that i attended with an alcoholic friend. it really sat with me. the rule is- if ALL 3 aren't a "yes"...it is usually best to keep it to yourself.
Art found the spice to be of a profoundly righteous spiritual magnitude. more than he was capable of opening up to given his current life situation. he explored as much as he could then realized that he simply COULD NOT share this sacrament or it's exploration with his wife because, FOR HIM, it was neither kind nor necessary. though there were undeniable "gifts" acquired from it's use, Art simply couldn't find a way to "work" with the spice in a way which "gave" him something to bring back and "add" to his relationship. he simply was not in a position to be able to relax and "figure it out".
so he stopped.
WS- try to be a little more compassionate for others' life situations. you have NO CLUE who Art is or what his life is like.....it all begins with compassion. any healing. any growing. the process begins with having compassion for where you are NOW. AND I'M REFERRING TO THE "ALL-ARE-ONE" YOU when i say that.
....and for what it's worth...and NOT to be provocative or anything...but i DO take offense to referring to the spice as "a drug". you can do your best Webster and try to "literalize" what it does, etc....but i GUARAN-DAMN-TEE you offended more than just myself and Oyahoco with that derogatory label. i for one will ALWAYS see DMT as a PLANT ENTHEOGEN. "theos" meaning god...."entheo" meaning "god within" and "gen" meaning "to look or see". "to see the god within". THAT is what DMT is for me. a tool to help me connect and learn from the god-self that is within us all.
Art started to see and use the spice as a drug. that is why he stopped.
if you truly see DMT as a drug, why are you still using it?
LOVE AND GRATITUDE!
ohayoco said:
How is this not relevant?
If you've never experienced something, you are only speculating. Right? Not just with marriage but anything in life.
And your guess is close, I got married around 24, now 35. Was not always so great, until we both stopped acting like we could continue living the same lives we did before. we go together around 20-21 yrs, lived together for 1-1/2 yrs before getting hitched. It's different.
And like I said before, I'm really not talking about the legal part of it at all, that is whole other ball of cats... Even more serious!!
I'm talking about taking a commitment seriously, not just babbling out the right words & signing a legal doc.
Oh & I really don't care what Jesus would do in any situation... Or any religion's idle for that matter.
And religion aside, what a man living 3000 years ago did about his issues has nothing to do with ours.
Alright, I don't think the two of us are gonna dance, I tip my hat to you.
WS
antrocles, I think I may have turned you off by being a bit to unmasked, I totally agree with everything you've said.
I'm praising art, for being a man & thinking of more than just himself!!
Plus, I do personally think of DMT as much, much more than just some common fuck-me-up!!
I was trying to bring the square world's view point in to the light as it's involved here.
Its sad actually that it has to be so demonized!!
BTW, I explained both of these things in my post's, I know they were long but come on...
Later guys
WS
I'm praising art, for being a man & thinking of more than just himself!!
Plus, I do personally think of DMT as much, much more than just some common fuck-me-up!!
I was trying to bring the square world's view point in to the light as it's involved here.
Its sad actually that it has to be so demonized!!
BTW, I explained both of these things in my post's, I know they were long but come on...
Later guys
WS
wake and bacon
Rising Star
SWIM now understands why he feels timid about letting some friends try out the spice... they view it as a drug... simply put.
I’m really surprised to have gotten the number of responses to this as I have. I’d planned not to post any further myself, at least for a little while, but after seeing the unruly monster I’ve spawned, I’ll jump back in one more time.
I do appreciate all the responses (except for LLB’s). I take no offence to any of them, regardless of the positions. I had mixed feelings over the weekend while cranking out my farewell. I nearly deleted it prior to posting. In hindsight I’m glad that I didn’t. I thought that by putting it out there I’d have no choice but to stick to my plan, but I worried that I’d look like a dick if I found myself back here next week. My original thought was to lay off the spice for a 30-day trial run, but all of your feedback has definitely got me rethinking my overall plan.
I think that I’m done – for the time being. I think that I need to be. I’m nobody’s martyr - never have been. I generally tend to my needs. But what I’ve been doing has been disrespectful - to my wife, to the spice and myself, and it doesn’t much matter how many others see it this way or not. It’s true for me, and I need to come to grips with that and honor it. And while I always appreciate Ant, my brother, that you’ve got my back (and you do), I think that of all the feedback above, it’s Warren’s that resonates most with me.
The rules of engagement in any marriage are complicated and unique. There isn’t any one-size-fits-all set of rules that one can apply. I knew before I married my wife that certain things wouldn’t fly. One was sleeping with other women. Another was getting loaded. These things were made very clear up front and I agreed to honor them. Now, I could go out and fuck an anonymous stranger tonight (and I’d love to), and it wouldn’t affect my feelings for her, but it’s against the rules, so I don’t. And with regard to the issue of drugs, my track record is abominable. My wife never saw that side of me as it was over before we met, but I’m still the person I was before, and it comes out in other ways.
When I used to drink, I used to DRINK. I’d black out daily, wake up routinely covered in piss, shit and vomit. I was way into smack, and between the two, I lived like a fucking animal. I was a junkie TO THE BONE. There’s just no way to deny this. But I meet my wife in sobriety and my life is very different. I truly feel that I’m done with that life (and still do, to be very clear). She’s sharp, my wife (though she isn’t the least opinionated person in the world), and she does accept me, warts and all - even likes that I’ve been where I've been. I make no attempt to hide who I am. The struggle has come to define me. I’m an addict in recovery, and she’s perfectly okay with all of it. But she’s also clear that she isn’t signing on for a life of misery, and that should I go the other way, she won’t be sticking around. Perfectly fair - I wouldn’t want to live with me as I was. Years go by. We have a kid. This ups the ante considerably. Our lives are now inextricably linked, responsible as we are for another.
Now, I say all this to illustrate that her feelings are all pretty valid. To apply them now to DMT, and expect that she’d take my word for it – that it isn’t the same, that it’s all okay - is asking a little bit much from her. I still haven’t had a drink in years, and in truth, I feel no closer to one. But I wouldn’t expect her to understand or put up with what I’ve been doing.
I do believe that DMT is just a different animal, and it’s changing the way I look at what I’ve come to see as my alcoholism. But to continue to pursue this now means choosing it over my family, because that’s what it will come down to in time - I won’t be able to have it all. And to make that choice – to pick this thing over my wife and daughter, means that nothing has changed at all for me. I’m right where I was 13 years ago.
It saddens me. Truly. I see DMT as one of the most profound experiences of my lifetime. But I say this not at all as a martyr - my daughter is just more important. And even if I managed to keep it all on the down low indefinitely, I’m just not present with her (and my wife) when I’m nursing a secret obsession. She’ll only be the age she is now once, and then never again. I can always revisit the spice in time.
For now, I think that’s my answer.
I do appreciate all the responses (except for LLB’s). I take no offence to any of them, regardless of the positions. I had mixed feelings over the weekend while cranking out my farewell. I nearly deleted it prior to posting. In hindsight I’m glad that I didn’t. I thought that by putting it out there I’d have no choice but to stick to my plan, but I worried that I’d look like a dick if I found myself back here next week. My original thought was to lay off the spice for a 30-day trial run, but all of your feedback has definitely got me rethinking my overall plan.
I think that I’m done – for the time being. I think that I need to be. I’m nobody’s martyr - never have been. I generally tend to my needs. But what I’ve been doing has been disrespectful - to my wife, to the spice and myself, and it doesn’t much matter how many others see it this way or not. It’s true for me, and I need to come to grips with that and honor it. And while I always appreciate Ant, my brother, that you’ve got my back (and you do), I think that of all the feedback above, it’s Warren’s that resonates most with me.
The rules of engagement in any marriage are complicated and unique. There isn’t any one-size-fits-all set of rules that one can apply. I knew before I married my wife that certain things wouldn’t fly. One was sleeping with other women. Another was getting loaded. These things were made very clear up front and I agreed to honor them. Now, I could go out and fuck an anonymous stranger tonight (and I’d love to), and it wouldn’t affect my feelings for her, but it’s against the rules, so I don’t. And with regard to the issue of drugs, my track record is abominable. My wife never saw that side of me as it was over before we met, but I’m still the person I was before, and it comes out in other ways.
When I used to drink, I used to DRINK. I’d black out daily, wake up routinely covered in piss, shit and vomit. I was way into smack, and between the two, I lived like a fucking animal. I was a junkie TO THE BONE. There’s just no way to deny this. But I meet my wife in sobriety and my life is very different. I truly feel that I’m done with that life (and still do, to be very clear). She’s sharp, my wife (though she isn’t the least opinionated person in the world), and she does accept me, warts and all - even likes that I’ve been where I've been. I make no attempt to hide who I am. The struggle has come to define me. I’m an addict in recovery, and she’s perfectly okay with all of it. But she’s also clear that she isn’t signing on for a life of misery, and that should I go the other way, she won’t be sticking around. Perfectly fair - I wouldn’t want to live with me as I was. Years go by. We have a kid. This ups the ante considerably. Our lives are now inextricably linked, responsible as we are for another.
Now, I say all this to illustrate that her feelings are all pretty valid. To apply them now to DMT, and expect that she’d take my word for it – that it isn’t the same, that it’s all okay - is asking a little bit much from her. I still haven’t had a drink in years, and in truth, I feel no closer to one. But I wouldn’t expect her to understand or put up with what I’ve been doing.
I do believe that DMT is just a different animal, and it’s changing the way I look at what I’ve come to see as my alcoholism. But to continue to pursue this now means choosing it over my family, because that’s what it will come down to in time - I won’t be able to have it all. And to make that choice – to pick this thing over my wife and daughter, means that nothing has changed at all for me. I’m right where I was 13 years ago.
It saddens me. Truly. I see DMT as one of the most profound experiences of my lifetime. But I say this not at all as a martyr - my daughter is just more important. And even if I managed to keep it all on the down low indefinitely, I’m just not present with her (and my wife) when I’m nursing a secret obsession. She’ll only be the age she is now once, and then never again. I can always revisit the spice in time.
For now, I think that’s my answer.
MalargueZiggy
Rising Star
Art, you're making the right decision.
If you're visiting a land outside time as we know it, in some ways it makes no difference how long you wait in our time to go back there. That's the view I take on it when I can't return because of external factors.
Imagine if your wife caught you doing D, then you'd be playing under a whole different set of rules. Then it becomes about the fact that you concealed something from her and lied, not about the sacred nature of the spice. In this scenario it makes no difference how 'beneficial' or 'wonderful' your experience was, and it would make no difference that, by our definition, she should be ok with you doing it.
If you got caught then you really could be in a position of being left with only the spice, and your usage of it from then on would inevitably be tainted because it may have caused you to lose your daughter.
Either way, this boils down to your wife's non-acceptance of 'drugs' (entheogenic or not) which is not something you can change, and as something you can't change you should succumb to it. You should accept (as I think you do) that not everyone take the same view of chemicals ppl on this site do. Whether or not you 'should be' with someone who accepts your use of dmt is not for anyone except you to judge.
When you add in your own attitude to D now it's a hands-down victory for your decision. I admire the fact that you've got the balls to stand up and say you're doing it for the wrong reasons. It proves once again that we, as people, are in control here, not the substances we take.
There's no way you should resent your wife, your daughter, or yourself. This decision is a necessary one, born out of factors out of your control. Take an extended break, rediscover the joys of this reality, maybe make some small steps towards educating your wife, pour all of the energy and attention you can onto your daughter and take pride in taking complete control over your life, and don't yearn for hyperspace because like I said at the beginning, it's not going anywhere.
Good luck,
MZ
If you're visiting a land outside time as we know it, in some ways it makes no difference how long you wait in our time to go back there. That's the view I take on it when I can't return because of external factors.
Imagine if your wife caught you doing D, then you'd be playing under a whole different set of rules. Then it becomes about the fact that you concealed something from her and lied, not about the sacred nature of the spice. In this scenario it makes no difference how 'beneficial' or 'wonderful' your experience was, and it would make no difference that, by our definition, she should be ok with you doing it.
If you got caught then you really could be in a position of being left with only the spice, and your usage of it from then on would inevitably be tainted because it may have caused you to lose your daughter.
Either way, this boils down to your wife's non-acceptance of 'drugs' (entheogenic or not) which is not something you can change, and as something you can't change you should succumb to it. You should accept (as I think you do) that not everyone take the same view of chemicals ppl on this site do. Whether or not you 'should be' with someone who accepts your use of dmt is not for anyone except you to judge.
When you add in your own attitude to D now it's a hands-down victory for your decision. I admire the fact that you've got the balls to stand up and say you're doing it for the wrong reasons. It proves once again that we, as people, are in control here, not the substances we take.
There's no way you should resent your wife, your daughter, or yourself. This decision is a necessary one, born out of factors out of your control. Take an extended break, rediscover the joys of this reality, maybe make some small steps towards educating your wife, pour all of the energy and attention you can onto your daughter and take pride in taking complete control over your life, and don't yearn for hyperspace because like I said at the beginning, it's not going anywhere.
Good luck,
MZ
Hey Art,
If not getting loaded was part of the deal, and given your past, and your overuse, then yes you definitely made the right decision.
Still, I hope you're glad you tried DMT- the more SWIM thinks about, the more he appreciates how it has changed him. It always makes him think of what Jorkest told me before SWIM's first launch: "Nothing will ever be the same". It's so true, it has transformed SWIM, and he feels honoured to have stumbled upon the opportunity to experience this. But he doesn't feel the need for it anymore- the change feels permanent- so don't feel like you're missing out by moving on. Consider yourself graduated from plant-teacher school! Because you've been a pupil of the master, and personally I feel that after an apprenticeship with this tutor, you really don't need any more plant schooling.
My 'martyrdom' thoughts weren't directed at you at all- I wasn't viewing your actions specifically as sacrificial, and didn't realise it could be construed this way. They were general remarks, but they were also intended to make LLB think- believe it or not I felt like I should tell him that just in case he was sacrificing his own happiness for others. If I upset you, LLB, I'm sorry, but honestly there isn't much harm in you being told so. If you ARE putting others before yourself, I hope my words will help you to see yourself as an equal, rather than a servant.
I wasn't suggesting that Warren's relationship model doesn't work- it does work for some people, when administered in a liberal and loving, rather than a controlling manner. It's the administration that's the kicker. I'm glad that Warren's words have helped you. I am open and honest with friends and lovers too, but because that's the way I am, not because it's how I'm meant to behave. Actually I used to be described by old friends as 'too honest' because I'd offer information that 'normal' people like to hide (until I met more open people to be friends with). I am just personally more tolerent towards people wanting a little privacy, although I wasn't that way when I was younger. Of course keeping serious secrets can be detrimental, it depends on how it affects the secret-keeper. But as Antrocles explained, some things are better left unsaid. Whatever works for YOUR relationship is of course the right thing to do.
Art, I've always enjoyed your posts. I wish you and your family all the best. You're lucky to have a friend like Antrocles. "Love & gratitude!"
If not getting loaded was part of the deal, and given your past, and your overuse, then yes you definitely made the right decision.
Still, I hope you're glad you tried DMT- the more SWIM thinks about, the more he appreciates how it has changed him. It always makes him think of what Jorkest told me before SWIM's first launch: "Nothing will ever be the same". It's so true, it has transformed SWIM, and he feels honoured to have stumbled upon the opportunity to experience this. But he doesn't feel the need for it anymore- the change feels permanent- so don't feel like you're missing out by moving on. Consider yourself graduated from plant-teacher school! Because you've been a pupil of the master, and personally I feel that after an apprenticeship with this tutor, you really don't need any more plant schooling.
My 'martyrdom' thoughts weren't directed at you at all- I wasn't viewing your actions specifically as sacrificial, and didn't realise it could be construed this way. They were general remarks, but they were also intended to make LLB think- believe it or not I felt like I should tell him that just in case he was sacrificing his own happiness for others. If I upset you, LLB, I'm sorry, but honestly there isn't much harm in you being told so. If you ARE putting others before yourself, I hope my words will help you to see yourself as an equal, rather than a servant.
I wasn't suggesting that Warren's relationship model doesn't work- it does work for some people, when administered in a liberal and loving, rather than a controlling manner. It's the administration that's the kicker. I'm glad that Warren's words have helped you. I am open and honest with friends and lovers too, but because that's the way I am, not because it's how I'm meant to behave. Actually I used to be described by old friends as 'too honest' because I'd offer information that 'normal' people like to hide (until I met more open people to be friends with). I am just personally more tolerent towards people wanting a little privacy, although I wasn't that way when I was younger. Of course keeping serious secrets can be detrimental, it depends on how it affects the secret-keeper. But as Antrocles explained, some things are better left unsaid. Whatever works for YOUR relationship is of course the right thing to do.
Art, I've always enjoyed your posts. I wish you and your family all the best. You're lucky to have a friend like Antrocles. "Love & gratitude!"