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Could DMT be neurotoxic?

Migrated topic.
shoe said:
Your advice isn't all that helpful here, merrily carrying on telling the guy to get a better extract when clearly he needs to work on improving his life, restoring the balance and other psychological issues. They could be very real and possibly dangerous, and you just throw a 'extract with limonene' in there??

@Dubrules: when you do return to smoke DMT, make sure that you are using an extract of high purity. I personally think that that should be part of the spiritual persuit of extracting and preparing spice. Good clean spice shows a good clean healthy attitude and lifestyle. - shows that you are prepared to put the work in to refine it. sends a good message to the spirits! :p
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I don't understand this - you bash etherealsamba for advising he uses as clean an extraction as possible, then you advise dubrules to... use as clean an extraction as possible (albeit phrased in a different way). I think plenty of people made the point that he needs to look after himself and maybe take a break, there is no need for everyone to repeat that, I suspect he is just putting another view across.
 
lbeing789 said:
Infundibulum said:
etherealsamba said:
oh and dont use lye, it gets pulled into the solvents.
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Misinformation
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I don't think it was misinformation... Just a mistake, right? is there any truth to lye getting into [any?] solvent?
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Well, water is a solvent and it does dissolve lye very well. :p But that's not the point.

Some NP solvents like DCM, chloroform, and diethyl ether have the capacity to hold tiny traces of water. Some lye may be able (in theory) to find its way in there. In practise, this amount is very close to zero as sodium hydroxide is awfully insoluble in, say water-saturated DCM or chloroform solvent.

Besides, people who'd use dcm, chloroform and diethyl ether in an extraction would hardly ever use lye like in an STB fashion. They'd go for either tiny amounts of lye or some other gentler base. On the other hand, people who use loads of lye (i.e. STB) and therefore there's a "potential" risk of lye finding its way in the solvent use solvents like alkanes, aromatics (xylene, toluene, benzene) and terpenes (like limonene). Lye is totally totally totally insoluble in the latter solvents.
 
not to mention lye's vaporizing temperature will never be reached by one's lighter... Even if a significant amount of lye is present and comes through the pipe as unvaporized solid particles (and even so this will probably be a very small amount in the 50mg of dmt), one can simply instead smoke in a water bong and voila, that lye particles wont pass through the water... plus, if one is consuming dmt orally one should anyways redissolve it in some acidic solution like orange juice which would neutralize any lye

but yeah of course its never bad to work clean, wash your spice and/or recrystalize, if thats what you desire..
 
Lye contamination of product--let alone its causing a harsher vapor--is practically a myth that seems to carry on regardless of what's said. The only way lye may contaminate a product is if droplets of lye water are allowed to remain in a solvent through freeze precip or evap. The only reasons not to use lye is safety in the operation of an extraction (mostly in terms of eyes), to avoid buying a suspicious item, or to use cleaner methods overall (foodgrade, nontoxic, less water, etc.). Otherwise it can yield just as clean a product. The biggest worries in terms of product purity are the solvents and methods for retrieving product from those solvents.
 
endlessness said:
not to mention lye's vaporizing temperature will never be reached by one's lighter...
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I hear this a lot and it's true obviously, but what if there was lye contamination and it came in contact with the flame, could it not still burn and cause fumes that way? I've never heard of anyone burning lye so I don't know how it behaves but I certain wouldn't want to try and I'm even more certain I wouldn't inhale it.
 
soulfood said:
I hear this a lot and it's true obviously, but what if there was lye contamination and it came in contact with the flame, could it not still burn and cause fumes that way? I've never heard of anyone burning lye so I don't know how it behaves but I certain wouldn't want to try and I'm even more certain I wouldn't inhale it.
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SWIM was certain that sodium carbonate was quite inert, but to make sure himself, he put some in a metal spoon and heated the bottom. When nothing happened, he applied the torch directly to the sodium carbonate, and again, nothing happened. Try this with lye if you're unsure.
 
amor_fati said:
Lye contamination of product--let alone its causing a harsher vapor--is practically a myth that seems to carry on regardless of what's said. The only way lye may contaminate a product is if droplets of lye water are allowed to remain in a solvent through freeze precip or evap. The only reasons not to use lye is safety in the operation of an extraction (mostly in terms of eyes), to avoid buying a suspicious item, or to use cleaner methods overall (foodgrade, nontoxic, less water, etc.). Otherwise it can yield just as clean a product. The biggest worries in terms of product purity are the solvents and methods for retrieving product from those solvents.
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Much thanks to Infundibulum and you amor_fati ... its was a huge problem in my mind hearing many people sayin lya stays in solvent... so thanks to u both
 
Actualy that is spot on, when you suck up the solvent without the benefit of a seperatory funnel, it is easy to pull in small droplets, normaly from the emulsion layer. Being very small they stay in suspension for a short while, but I have learned to hang the syringe I pull with in a bottle for a few minutes, and then eventualy, you see the litle brown dots collecting at the bottom thanks to gravity. They are easy to tap until they sit in the injection's outlet, and I just squirt that first drop back into the tea bottle. It is these droplets that are responsible for those few brown spots when you freeze percip after careless pulls. And anybody who has smoked those would tell you, its tough on the chest and system.
 
lol 1664, I reserve the right to contradict myself! heh, point taken :) but, advising to use the cleanest extract possible without warning about the psychological issues (as I had done) to me, gives the impression that you're condoning just carrying onward on his present course of action.

No harm done...
 
Nordic said:
And anybody who has smoked those would tell you, its tough on the chest and system.
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I highly doubt this is due to lye contamination, as there's a bit more in those droplets than just lye. It goes without saying that sloppy procedures yield a sloppy product, but lye couldn't be considered the culprit of any problems experienced when vaporizing unless you're somehow inhaling solid lye particles, which would indicate that sloppy smoking methods are being used.
 
I agree, its the whole brown thingy, which is made up of bark water and lye, Lye itself isn't brown afterall... So you are not saying anything that disagrees with what I was trying to say :)
 
I am willing to put forward that the difficulties can come from too much of anything.And I find it somewhat irresponsible that no real respect for a relatively new ingestion technique is being shown. Bottom line is not one soul here has absolute knowledge of long term effects of Smoking/vaping freebase but most seem to automatically assume since it is endogenous and similar to it's 4-oh derivative that it must be without any repercussions. I feel this is hardly in the vein of responsibility or harm reduction or even in responsible use.
I have a low post count under this nickname, but do not let that lead one into thinking this is in any way new to me. My first trip to hyperspace was in 1977 on synthetic orange crystalline DMT and I have used it about 5-8 times a yr since but am far more impressed with insufflation or oral use than vaping the FB.
Again we play with dangerous toys. Downplaying the fact is an abuse of the experience.
SB
 
Synthetic DMT in the 70's? can you tell us the story?
If Fear & Loathing is anything to go by, that was quite a find back then. How did you come by that?
 
soxy bastard said:
I am willing to put forward that the difficulties can come from too much of anything.And I find it somewhat irresponsible that no real respect for a relatively new ingestion technique is being shown. Bottom line is not one soul here has absolute knowledge of long term effects of Smoking/vaping freebase but most seem to automatically assume since it is endogenous and similar to it's 4-oh derivative that it must be without any repercussions. I feel this is hardly in the vein of responsibility or harm reduction or even in responsible use.
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This is true; there have not been studies in the long term effects of smoking, IVing, IMimg and insufflating dmt. It is therefore wise to treat it with some caution.

The "loose" feelings about the non-toxicity of smoked dmt stem from the extrapolation of two apparent observations; a) that oral dmt in the form of ayahuasca decoctions does not seem to cause any long-term damage and that dmt is pretty much "known" to the body as an endogenous substance and can thus be dealt with easily.

Smoking dmt is quite a shocking procedure to the body. This should not be forgotten or overlooked. The "shock" is due to a bombardment of the brain (as well as the rest of the body) with such a powerful substance. We really do not know what this "shock" cases in the long term.
 
Nordic said:
I agree, its the whole brown thingy, which is made up of bark water and lye, Lye itself isn't brown afterall... So you are not saying anything that disagrees with what I was trying to say :)
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No problem. I wasn't sure, so I thought I'd elaborate anyway.

soxy bastard said:
I am willing to put forward that the difficulties can come from too much of anything.And I find it somewhat irresponsible that no real respect for a relatively new ingestion technique is being shown. Bottom line is not one soul here has absolute knowledge of long term effects of Smoking/vaping freebase but most seem to automatically assume since it is endogenous and similar to it's 4-oh derivative that it must be without any repercussions. I feel this is hardly in the vein of responsibility or harm reduction or even in responsible use.
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True. This is discussion that pops up every once in a while, usually pertaining to research chemicals, but also to purified substances. The community is charting fairly new territory on a regular basis. The argument generally goes that brews and dried plants and whatnot generally have a longer history of use than either their purified forms or their synthesized counterparts, and thus are the only forms that can be considered reasonably safe. The other side would generally say that while the seemingly reasonably harmless long history of use is likely indicative of the actives' relative safety--hinted at by more recent research with purified forms--little is known about the rest of the various preparations' inactive components. Regardless of either side of the argument, little is known of the effect of the high frequency and variety of use common amongst most modern psychonauts, no matter what methods of administration.

I have a low post count under this nickname, but do not let that lead one into thinking this is in any way new to me. My first trip to hyperspace was in 1977 on synthetic orange crystalline DMT and I have used it about 5-8 times a yr since but am far more impressed with insufflation or oral use than vaping the FB.
Again we play with dangerous toys. Downplaying the fact is an abuse of the experience.
SB
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SWIM hasn't really come across orange spice and thought that pure DMT was white, and he has his reservations regarding the safety of insuffulation. While these activities may not be inherently safe, all one can determine is the cost vs. the benefit and how it makes one feel. SWIM, for instance, is in better mental and physical condition now than he ever was prior to the engaging in spice. Circumstantial? Possibly, but no part of any life is isolated or independent from the rest of it.

shoe said:
Synthetic DMT in the 70's? can you tell us the story?
If Fear & Loathing is anything to go by, that was quite a find back then. How did you come by that?
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Well, the pranksters and Leary's bunch used it on occasion, and it's even mentioned in the Woodstock documentary. Considering that it was scheduled alongside LSD, it couldn't have been too terribly uncommon. I'm not so sure that Thompson never tried it, though it is possible. He may have deliberately chosen not to refer to it by name (though he seems to hint at it), considering how acutely aware he was of the pitfalls of the acid culture.
 
shoe said:
Synthetic DMT in the 70's? can you tell us the story?
If Fear & Loathing is anything to go by, that was quite a find back then. How did you come by that?
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I made it in Advanced organic lab several times and then began getting it from the leftover BOEL along with another popular psychedelic.I also toyed a bit with the alkyl derivitives like DET,DPT,DIPT and but found them uninteresting.
It was 1984 I got to try a caapi brew during a contract in Peru and experienced the real deal which greatly influenced my use of DMT to primarily as a whole plant brew for many years and yes in fact it was easier to get good quality herbs from local friends than going thru the rigamarole of todays vendors. My first extraction was done by the seat of my pants in 1990 on Psycotria leaf and produced a fairly clean HCl salt which I did flop into the base for vaping however in the wake of having sat with the ayahuasceros and singing the Icaros it was/is only a piece of the greater whole found in the plants as they are.
So now I am full circle I have explored the alkaloids to my content and now seek the spirit of the plants in my 'extractions'. My goals are to lessen the amount of overall material ingested while retaining the full profile of the plants. And if I can do this using somewhat traditional materials or adapted traditional procedures then that is how I try to work.
So as should be obvious I am not predjudiced in any way but am realistic regarding such a potent delivery mechanism as smoke/vaping or injection.
These are new modes without centuries of social context and as such deserving of a level of respect even higher than the known safe traditional methods. I believe there is a lot to learn from these experiences but at the same time feel that these methods will make it harder in the long run to gain acceptance as tools of enlightenent if such is ever acceptable
SB
 
gotta love these old school stories, always feel free to share them :)

btw, since you mention about getting the spirit of the plants while diminishing amount of material ingested, did you get to check out the newer extractions using limonene? While it may not be traditional, the fact that it is food-safe and pulls the full range of alkaloids makes it so much more appealing!
 
wasn't virola calophyla smoked at times by indigenous peoples?..I know that it was mostly snuffed but i thought that it was smoked at times as well..and it is mostly DMT and not 5meo like the theodora snuffs..that would provide a context for a much deeper cultural and historical use of smoked freebase DMT...

Either way you make a good point.
 
@soxybastard:

This is, as you rightly say, a relatively new mode of engagement, without the generations of experience and collected knowledge of the Ayahuasceros, and none of us know the long term effects - but that's why we're here; to share experiences and knowledge, and to encourage safe, respectful and responsible use. The very existence and attitude of this community on the Nexus is itself evidence that those here seek to explore this substance responsibly.
 
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