datura, belladonna, mandrake root ect...

[hypnotoad]

Hey folks! Now I know this site doesn't really like talk of these plants, but I just have a few questions about them and a few questions about there use (historically)

Okay so as far as I am aware, datura, belladonna, mandrake root, brugmansia and idk what else are very dangerous and very rearly enjoyable. None should be done without a sitter!! And all could cause death!! So be careful!

Okay but what I've been wanting to know is what would be considered the safest? As far as I am aware brugmansia and mandrake root are the safest? (And by safe I still do mean super dangerous)

I know that datura and belladonna are propbably higer in atropine alkaloids and Scopolamine alkaloids.
Does datura have a very old history use as with mandrake root and brugmansia?
Has brugmansia been used in some form of ayauhusca?

What would you consider to be the safest?


Thanks guys,
Much respect and peace!

 

[Eliyahu]

I understand that this falls under the classification of discouraged drug talk, however I am myself curios about using very teeny tiny small amounts along with Ayahuasca.

I would love to hear if anyone has first hand experience with this combination..

I know I took datura stupidly as a youngster and it was a horrifying 48 hour ordeal from hell.

but I am curios if it could be used to any benefit...or is this one just bettor off left alone by everyone even the experienced???

 

[hypnotoad]

I have heard rumors of tribes using some kind of brugmansia in their ayahusca. Would it make effects stronger or is it for nausea? Does brugmansia even help for nausea as in the case with datura?

And yes I'm only asking this for research not for intempt of consumption.

 

[The Traveler]

Like any poison/medicine it is all about dosage.

Higher dosages mostly end up either in jail, the hospital or the cemetery. So please refrain from using high dosages of these plants since they are unpredictable and pretty good at killing you or giving you life lasting disabilities like vision impairment and brain damage.

Low dosages can be used to treat nausea and to potentiate other entheogens. With datura we are talking about utmost 10 seeds per day to stay in the safe range, I don't know about the others or things like datura flowers.

So what you can do is make a brew where each personal ayahuasca dosage contains about three datura seeds as admixture, this to stay within a safe dosage range.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[hypnotoad]

Yeah these can very tricky to get the right dose.
And thanks a lot traveler.

Is tree datura seeds also active like in the case of datura seeds?

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

I don't think ANY tropane-bearing plants can be considered "safe" in any capacity. I have read that atropine is the least pleasant of the tropanes, but I don't know which has the least of that. I guess belladonna has the most?

I've used Datura wrightii both as an antiemetic for Jurema/harmala and I do notice that it changes the effects somewhat... it makes vision come easier and more clearly, extremely vivid. But I never take more than 5 datura seeds with Jurema, I haven't messed with it alone except one or two experiments with smoking the leaves of some sort of datura in San Diego... that led to a hazy sedation that wasn't entirely unpleasant (but not interesting enough to proceed).

For god's sake BE CAREFUL!

EDIT: hypnotoad, I think the brugmansia seeds are quite a bit stronger, but don't quite me on that. They look quite a bit larger and woodier than the pepper-like Datura seeds.

 

[hypnotoad]

I do agree with aluminumfoilrobots that belladonna is the most potent atropine containing.

But does anyone have any info on mandrake root? Is it the least containg or is brugmansia? And does the whole of brugmansia contain atropa alkaloids? Or does it contain something else?

Thanks.

 

[The Traveler]

Yeah these can very tricky to get the right dose.
And thanks a lot traveler.

Is tree datura seeds also active like in the case of datura seeds?

A quick search with google gave me these results:

* Datura stramonium

All parts of the plant are toxic. They are ingested, smoked and absorbed topically especially through mucous membranes. The exact concentration of specific alkaloids varies with species, cultivation, environment, temperature, moisture, and storage. The range of toxicity is highly variable and unpredictable; toxicity may vary from leaf to leaf, plant to plant and season to season. This contributes to the danger of misuse of the plant since the dose cannot be predicted.(5,7) The highest concentration occurs in the seeds: approximately 0.1 mg of atropine per seed or 3-6 mg/50-100 seeds.(4) An estimated lethal dose in an adult is >10 mg atropine or >2-4 mg scopolamine.(5)

* Brugmansia spp. - angel trumpet

All kinds of the Brugmanisia contain effective alkaloids. Alkaloid content:
( plant / root / bloom / seed)
Brugmansia arborea - angel trumpet tree 0,2-0,4% ? ? ?
Brugmansia aurea - golden angel trumpet 0,9% ? ? ?
Brugmansia x candida - white angel trumpet 0,56% ? ? ?
Brugmansia x insignis - magnificent angel trumpet ? ? ? ?
Brugmansia sanguinea - Blutfarbene angel trumpet 0,4% ? 0,83% 0,17%
Brugmansia suaveolens - smelling angel trumpet 0,09-0,16% ? ? ?
Brugmansia versicolor - multicolored angel trumpet ? ? ? ?

Notice that both articles state that the actual alkaloid content can vary, and that there is not much info on the seed content of the different Brugmansia species. I advice you to search for Datura stramonium as admixture since it seems that the alkaloid content of up to ten seeds is always within the safe range.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[hypnotoad]

Thanks a lot traveler! really helped!

I live in south africa and usually see 3 species of datura but never know what datura it is for sure.
And I assume that when datura does grow wild and in a semi-harsh enviroment that the alkaloid content will be higher? Ot do you think it will be lower?

 

[Eliyahu]

Thanks be to The Traveler..

Thank you for taking the time to answer this thread personally...

I believe I may start off with one HALF seed, I may smoke DMT on that and see how the vibe treats me..If I'm invited to go deeper I will go a TAD deeper, but just a tad.

The horror stories I have heard about datura have been just as bad if not worse than the traumatizing tales I have heard about PCP.

I will tread with extreme care.

:|

 

[jamie]

for what it is worth..mandrake is reported to be the "safest" to work with. *Note that "safest" does not mean it is safe to play around with..just that it is the safest dose wide of the tropane plants. I think mandrake has less atropine but you shoudl confirm this yourself with reasearch. I have not looked into this is some time.

I have frequented traditional witchcraft forums much in the past..and what I have gathered is this..

Reguardless of what is done in the amazon, these tropane bearing plants do NOT seem to have been used widely as oral aids for this sort of work(in europe)..aside from the consumption of pilsenkraut(henbane beer)..I dont think people were getting deleriant doses off of pilsenkraut.. These plants were often made into salves and rubbed into the pulse points, or put in the anus/vagina/penis durring sex magick. A Haegtessa(witch) would often rub these salves on broomsticks and place it into the vagina..hence the idea of witches riding broomsticks..

A transdermal salve containing tropanes is not the same as just boiling some tea or eating some seeds..for starters atropine is not very active if at all when used transdermally..it is also harder to really overdo it with a transdermal salve rubbed onto the pulse points..and this method also seems like it creates a drastically shorter experience as well. I have heard numerous people who work with these salves claim the effects differ from just ingesting the stuff..and that ingesting it is stupid and you are just asking for trouble.

Dont take my word for any of this though. My point here is to point out how little most of the people here who would be interested know about this sort of thing..so going out and just ingesting this stuff is foolish. I have spoken with people who are deep into the old craft and have been studying this thing for like 30 years..even these people are very careful..and this is what they have passed on to me. You have to really know what you are doing here..this stuff when used by someone who does not know what they are doing can easily kill you dead like it's nothing..

If you dont have a real contact somewhere out there with a connection to the old ways, who understands the importance of recipes that have passed the test of time and has real first hand experience of how to administer such things, doses etc..than you are not qualified to be messing around with this stuff. It is a recipe for disaster.

I would say this is best left for another forum. Leave this kind of thing to the people of the old craft who have spent a lifetime understanding it. They are out there and they are few and far between. This place is the wrong crowd for getting in depth answers when it comes to these plants IMO. I DO NOT encourage anyone here to just go out and experiment with these plants.

 

[jamie]

Thanks a lot traveler! really helped!

I live in south africa and usually see 3 species of datura but never know what datura it is for sure.
And I assume that when datura does grow wild and in a semi-harsh enviroment that the alkaloid content will be higher? Ot do you think it will be lower?

I think you should spend a good few months to a year places like this and talk to people with real experience before you even think about these plants..

House Shadow Drake

Traditional Witchcraft and Celtic folklore. Features information and resources for Seekers of the elder traditions of Witchcraft.

www.traditionalwitchcraft.net

Traditional Witch Home

 

[Eliyahu]

helpful as as ever, thank you jamie

 

[blue lunar night]

There is a wonderfully informative & concise chapter on these plants in Dale Pendell's Pharmako/Gnosis... their history, chemistry, effects, methods of use, etc. all in one place.

i think he also says that Mandragora is probably the "safest" for a tropane neophyte.

Please be mindful of the element of Seduction that is characteristic of these plants !


Just sitting in the middle of a Datura patch under the full moon, sharing in Her pearly lunar exultation & witchy bliss, is enough to pull me into Her realm...
i don't feel inclined to take it further !

 

[flickedbic]

I read of Datura wrightii sometimes being recommended for good effects.

Transdermal or smelling flowers is safest; but I read of significant potentiation and synergistic effect when combined with Cramp bark; thus needing lower dosages.

Blessings.

 

[mew]

~WARNING THESE PLANTS ARE MOST DANGEROUS~


please research extensively before attempting anything personally.


with any atropine plant KNOW YOUR DOSE

always start low with the plant and dont combine it.

gently increase your amounts each experience, and never try to get a powerful experience without first understanding the amount it requires. ie dont take a ton and hope it was enough but not too much.

i recommend growing your own datura or brugmansia, and use something fairly consistent and keep using that part of the plant to know your dose. if you start eating a few seeds, you can slowly increase the amount of seeds per experience (never redose!)
if youre using leaves, take out the vein as bigger leaves have bigger veins and stems, thus more of a variable in dosing. weigh your plant product as well as note how much was used (ie 5 seeds might way x grams, or half a leaf without stem or vein weighs x grams) keep detailed notes on when the experience starts and when it ends. all information you record is relevant and can help you acquire an understanding of potency.

if youre using a new plant or a different plant, test the new plant on the low end of the spectrum for dosing to see its potency, it may be you accidenctally got brugmansia sanguea instead of run of the mill brugmansea. which would make the dose much stronger.

once you have a moderate experience, only then would i recommend using it as an admixture at a threshold dose. again only 1 combination (ie cactus and datura, caapi and datura, cannabis and datura) when you find the level you desire there you are safer to add yet another plant to the mix, (caapi + psychotria + datura) again always start threshold with your newest admixture and build up incrementally each new experience to find your sweet spot. NEVER REDOSE during an experience.

if you are taking datura and your throat swells and breathing becomes difficult, or your heart becomes tachycardic (fast heart reat) , or you have noticably elevated blood pressure (youll feel it in your eyes and face most), or you get really hot and sweaty, or your tongue refuse to make syllables correctly, IMMEDIATELY notify someone you trust to be most attentive, at this dose you are entering both visionary and lethal. the boundry between the two is infintesimal...


please be very careful.

as a rule of thumb, never extract atropines. if you accidentally absorb it through poor lab technique or sheer accident you may kill yourself or harm another person....

these plants are potent enough without extraction, leave the minimal safety buffer intact and ingest them as plants...

personally i find that datura compliments cactus, lsa, cannabis

 

[hypnotoad]

Thanks a lot mew, very helpful info! Much respect!

And thanks Jamie!! Also very helpful, much respect!

And mew, I've heard that datura makes your cannabis (or whatever is your admixture) a lot more potent? Is this true? And would you say that it is safer for people to work with datura seeds or datura leaves,stems, roots or flowers?

 

[mew]

smoking datura is the safest method of ingestion, its the quickest experience, and its hard to overdose. i would recommend trying this before ingesting it orally to see if thats what youre looking for.

i find datura has a stoning effect on its own, thats typically what draws naive people to it, its narcotic like effects (on low doses) however people often underestimate the power of just a few leaves and go way overboard for a terrifying experience.

whatever you start to experiment with keep it consistant, let the only variable be the quantity. thats why its essential to grow your own. it grows like crazy so youll have more than youll need very soon, while keeping the same alkaloid saturation in whatever part of the plant you choose to dose with.

datura changa terrified a few people from the 1:1:1 ratio i used (1 part acetate spice: 1 part freebase maoi: 1 part dried datura flower) i appreciated it though...


the seeds are arguable the most potent part, however you must wait till it seeds to use them. leaves are pretty simple, theres always gonna be plenty of leaves. flowers, too you must wait for it to flower. and roots, are difficult to gauge dose wise.

i once grew brugmansia hydroponically and harvested the roots in the water bucket below a few times. i wouldnt reccomend it as the dose was pretty unkown. i however ended up drying and smoking them.


you can safely smoke datura seeds you buy online without too much negative consequence. but the best way is still growing your own and getting familliar with your plant.

i always referred to mine as a pronoun "she/her". as a rule everytime you remove a part of your plant exchange energies with it as a courtesy (spit in the bucket it grows in). my cat often mauled me and drew blood, so having been growing my tree inside i repeatedly wiped the blood onto the trunk, eventually it was covered. it was quite a sinister thing. i never had a serious problem with brugmansia, except 1 time when i just haphazardly add it to the pile of plants i was eating (cactus, coca tea, cannabis, and a few others) that night it really got to me...

i never let anyone else touch her, and if they did so by mistake i made them spit in her pot aswell. one time i let my girlfriend harvest a leaf and trade energies, it turns out my brugmansia did not like my girlfriend and gave her an experience of purging. my girlfriend happened to be phobic of purging. that plus the cactus gave her a lot to work on that night. then she smoked dmt and well, everything was forgiven

 

[hypnotoad]

Datura stramonium - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So smoking datura leaves are the safer way, but does it still produce the profound deleruim? I'm actually just asking out of curosity. I have heard it produces less toxic effects?

Thanks a lot again for the help mew,
Much respect!

 

[mew]

yea smoking is the way to start, profound delerium no, stoning yes