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Datura stramonium vs. Brugmansia suaveolens

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Ginkgo

Ginkgo

Rising Star
Hi fellow psychonauts,

Ayahuasca is often made with Toé - Brugmansia suaveolens - especially if the Shaman thinks his patient will have trouble 'going through' and facing his or hers demons or angels. This also makes the brew more potent.

Similarily, many of us western psychonauts use Datura stramonium to potentiate psychedelics and stop nausea. D. stramonium contains, just as B. suaveolens, tropane alkaloids that do this magic. The reason Stramonium is used, is because the high amount of Hyoscyamine (80 %) compared to Scopolamine and Atropine.

What are the differences in alkaloid contents and effects from D. stramonium to B. suaveolens? Has anyone here tried B. suaveolens the way D. stramonium are used? Or perhaps tried Ayahuasca with both D. str. and B. sua.? And why are B. suav. almost always used in the Amazon, where several other Brugmansia species and other related families are present?
 
I have wondered this for a long, long time!

Shamans in South America often work with specific clones that have been passed down for generations and specifically grown for certain entheogenic effects.

Different clones are reported to have very different effects.
 
I can't find much information on Brugmansia suaveolens. That's a shame. I would love to know what the primary alkaloid is.
 
Brugmansia in general are said to be primarily scopolamine (about 80%), much like Datura inoxia, but information on Brugmansia suaveolens is hard to come by and this might not be the case for Brugmansia suaveolens, but true for other Brugmansia. Datura in general are high in hyoscyamine, but then there’s Datura inoxia which is high in scopolamine, so the fact Brugmansia in general are high in scopolamine doesn’t mean that they all are. Does anyone know the alkaloid profile of Brugmansia suaveolens in particular?
 
I was able to find an article with analysis of the alkaloids in the roots of Brugmansia suaveolens, although I can't make much sense of it concerning the amount found in percent. "The root cultures of Brugmansia suaveolens contain a complex mixture of more than 18 alkaloids. Hyoscyamine and tropine figure as the major alkaloids followed by hygrine, cuscohygrine, homatropine and many other alkaloids as minor alkaloids." It seems like Hyoscyamine is the main active alkaloid, although it would be interesting to know the percent of the other actives, and also if some of the numerous other alkaloids are active.

Maybe you can help, 69ron (or someone else)? The article is available here, scroll down to page 3 to see the list.
 
Isn't it so that datura and brugmansia is the same family and that the brugmania's only received this name because the people who discovered the plants in south america didn't know they where related to the already known datura?
Just like lions and tigers are both 'panthera' but live in different parts of the world.
 
polytrip said:
Isn't it so that datura and brugmansia is the same family and that the brugmania's only received this name because the people who discovered the plants in south america didn't know they where related to the already known datura?
Just like lions and tigers are both 'panthera' but live in different parts of the world.
Click to expand...
Daturas are closely related, but they are different genuses. Daturas are herbaceous bushes, while Brugmansias are woody trees or bushes.
 
Isn't it so that datura and brugmansia is the same family and that the brugmania's only received this name because the people who discovered the plants in south america didn't know they where related to the already known datura?
Just like lions and tigers are both 'panthera' but live in different parts of the world.
Click to expand...

They are a totally different genus.

I don't think so.
 
Evening Glory said:
Maybe you can help, 69ron (or someone else)? The article is available here, scroll down to page 3 to see the list.
Click to expand...

They were analyzing roots, so I don't know how much that applies to the rest of the plant. There results show it contains mostly hyoscyamine and atropine, but doesn’t really give a good clear indication of the scopolamine content.

If these findings mirror those of the leaves, then this plant would be more like Datura stramonium than Datura inoxia. That would make sense to me that natives would use it in ayahuasca. Hyoscyamine is a much better additive than scopolamine is. Scopolamine doesn’t seem to block the nausea of psychedelics as well as hyoscyamine can, and scopolamine also doesn’t seem to enhance the effects of psychedelics as much as hyoscyamine does.

Hyoscyamine is less likely to cause delirium. According to what I’ve read, scopolamine causes delirium at much lower doses than hyoscyamine. So adding a plant with hyoscyamine to ayahuasca would be much safer than adding a plant containing scopolamine. The last thing a shaman wants is their group becoming delirious while tripping on ayahuasca. Imagine the chaos that would occur if that happened.

From what I’ve read, the amount of Brugmansia suaveolens added to ayahuasca is very small, it’s likely not enough to cause delirium at all. And if this plant indeed has hyoscyamine as its main active alkaloid then it should be far safer than other Brugmansia containing scopolamine as the main active alkaloid.

In SWIM’s tests in comparing the effects of Datura inoxia (containing mostly scopolamine) with those of Datura stramonium (containing mostly hyoscyamine), SWIM found hyoscyamine was superior in enhancing the effects of other psychedelics. At doses as low as 3 seeds (containing up to 150 micrograms of hyoscyamine), Datura stramonium was able to block the nausea of most psychedelics, increase the visuals and increase the euphoria felt. As much as 6 seeds of Datura inoxia, containing up to 120 micrograms of scopolamine, acted more as a sedative and had no enhancement effects noticed, and did not block the nausea of any psychedelics tested with it. It’s good for decreasing anxiety at that dose, but that’s about it.
 
Evening Glory said:
Daturas are closely related, but they are different genuses. Daturas are herbaceous bushes, while Brugmansias are woody trees or bushes.
Click to expand...
Just for the records, the correct (and properly used) plural form of the word genus is genera :p
 
[quote='Coatl]
Isn't it so that datura and brugmansia is the same family and that the brugmania's only received this name because the people who discovered the plants in south america didn't know they where related to the already known datura?
Just like lions and tigers are both 'panthera' but live in different parts of the world.
Click to expand...

They are a totally different genus.

I don't think so.
[/quote]
But Brugmansia and Datura albeit being different Genera stem from the same Family (Solanaceae) so you should think so.
 
Infundibulum said:
Evening Glory said:
Daturas are closely related, but they are different genuses. Daturas are herbaceous bushes, while Brugmansias are woody trees or bushes.
Click to expand...
Just for the records, the correct (and properly used) plural form of the word genus is genera :p
Click to expand...
Thank you! It looked funny with "genuses" to me, but I couldn't figure out the right way to write it... English is not my main language, considering that I think I am doing okay! ;) It is always good to get corrected, I would not learn anything new if not.

69ron: You speak my words. I find the high content of hyoscyamine very interesting, although not that surprising. Until proven otherwise, I recognize the alkaloid content in the roots as a mirror of the aerial parts. Is it normal for plants in this family to have different alkaloid content in the different parts? Of course the total amount of alkaloids vary greatly, but do the relative amount of each alkaloid vary?

Edit: On second thoughts, it is in the roots the biosynthesis takes place. Therefore, measurements from the roots can not necessarily be used as a reference for the epigeal parts.

I am also wondering if some of the other isolated alkaloids may be active. I want to get some seeds and grow Toé myself, it would be very interesting to bioassay it and compare it with D. stramonium.
 
69ron can you answer this for me?

Datura inoxia seeds contain mostly Scopolamine right?

...and Datura stramonium seeds contain mostly Hyoscyamine correct?

Scopolamine is the more sedating of the two, right?

Can you tell use which kind of Datura you prefer and why?

I think the Brugmansia genus needs to be explored more!

Datura inoxia will not work nearly as good as Datura stramonium. D. inoxia has about 97 % scopolamine. Scopolamine is great against motion sickness, but not nearly as good against nausea as hyoscyamine is. Datura stramonium seeds is what you want, as it is high in hyoscyamine.
Click to expand...

I'm looking for the plant which best reduces nausea... which one would that be in your opinion 69ron?

I always thought Scopolamine was best for nausea, but the above person says it's better for motion sickness.... I fail to see the major difference.
 
[quote='Coatl]69ron can you answer this for me?

Datura inoxia seeds contain mostly Scopolamine right?

...and Datura stramonium seeds contain mostly Hyoscyamine correct?

Scopolamine is the more sedating of the two, right?[/quote]

Yes, yes, and yes. Hyoscyamine is a stimulant at low doses and scopolamine is a sedative. They are very different in how they feel.

[quote='Coatl]Can you tell use which kind of Datura you prefer and why? [/quote]

That depends.

For a sleep aid, 3-5 Datura inoxia seeds are fantastic. They allow sleep to commence faster and seem to also stimulate dreaming. For this purpose Datura stramonium is not good, it’s stimulant effects can make it hard to sleep, but if you do manage to sleep, it also seems to simulate dreaming just as well.

As a potentiator of psychedelics, and as an anti-nausea medicine, Datura stramonium is more effective.

[quote='Coatl]I think the Brugmansia genus needs to be explored more!

Datura inoxia will not work nearly as good as Datura stramonium. D. inoxia has about 97 % scopolamine. Scopolamine is great against motion sickness, but not nearly as good against nausea as hyoscyamine is. Datura stramonium seeds is what you want, as it is high in hyoscyamine.
Click to expand...

I'm looking for the plant which best reduces nausea... which one would that be in your opinion 69ron?

I always thought Scopolamine was best for nausea, but the above person says it's better for motion sickness.... I fail to see the major difference.[/quote]

Scopolamine is better for motion sickness while hyoscyamine is better for nausea caused by increased digestive system stimulation (ie., the nausea caused by most psychedelics).

While motion sickness and the nausea from psychedelics sound like similar things, they are not. Motion sickness is triggered in the inner ear, while the nausea from psychedelics is not. Scopolamine interferes with the motion sickness signaling from the inner ear. Hyoscyamine doesn’t seem to have much of that effect, so it’s not useful for motion sickness. Hyoscyamine slows down the digestive system more than scopolamine does, and so it’s more effective at blocking psychedelic induced nausea which is basically caused by an overly stimulated digestive system. Psychedelics cause nausea by interaction with the serotonin neurotransmitter sites in the digestive system, not by interacting with the inner ear.
 
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