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Definition of Aya vs Pharma

Yugoslav

Esteemed member
What would be a basic working definition of Ayahuasca and pharma.

Aya:
Is it the group thing
Is it the brew
Is it the shaman
Is it the community
Is it continious drinking weaker dose, gradual intake
The rituals
Pharma:
Extractions
Individual take as supposed to group
Taking one dose to break through ( however I do know members who take pharma little by little, I would never do that)
Not reliying on shaman,
Having a lay sitter
Not relying on mythology, or taking it "secularly"

I started with pharma years back. Now I'm not extracting, in the country I'm in it's difficult so I can't be bothered.

I'm doing cold vinegar pull, and NaOH. I drink that. So what am I doing?
 
I think Aya is any brew that contains the actual ayahuasca vine Banisteriopsis caapi, regardless of plant admixtures and setting. All other harmala + dmt brews and mixes can be labled as ayahuasca analogues, in particular, the ones using purified alkaloids are referred to as pharma.

Can you describe a bit more what you're doing? If for oral consumption you need neutral or slightly acidic pulls. You shouldn't be drinking anything with NaOH in it, you only need that for extractions.
 
I think Aya is any brew that contains the actual ayahuasca vine Banisteriopsis caapi, regardless of plant admixtures and setting. All other harmala + dmt brews and mixes can be labled as ayahuasca analogues, in particular, the ones using purified alkaloids are referred to as pharma.
I agree with that, any brew containing b. caapi would be called ayahuasca, no matter what you add or not in the preparation...

Also, I'd ike to mention that Ayahuasca isn't always taken in groups, when someone engage on the curandero path, he is left isolated in the jungle for several days or weeks, following a very restrictive diet of food and plants, and this include ayahuasca, so, there are situations in which it idoesn't involve a group.
 
I'm aware that Ayahuasca is actually one of the several names for B. caapi, but I like to use Ayahuasca for the general concept of DMT+harmalas admixture, which I think has become a common meaning for the word. In practice, if someone drinks only B. caapi they would report on that fact, not leave it just as "Ayahuasca". I do use "mimosahuasca" and "pharmahuasca" to disambiguate when needed.

Words are labels after all, and what counts is that we are able to agree on what is being labelled on a given conversation. I don't like the attitude displayed in some places (not here) that only a B. caapi + P. viridis admixture given by a (often supposed) shaman is "real" Ayahuasca, with the implied meaning that other admixtures and/or contexts are of lesser value.
 
I certainly feel if there’s no vine in it it’s not real ayahuasca and would not call rue and mimosa ayahuasca.

Words can evoke entire worlds.

It’s not about what’s better, or more spiritual. It’s about what a thing is and what it’s name evokes.

A vine only brew IS ayahuasca to me.

Words don’t have to loose meaning as they cross cultures. If we call rue and mimosa “ayahuasca” I feel like we are tossing aside an entire world and loosing some of the rich context that is built up around ayahuasca.
 
It’s not about what’s better, or more spiritual. It’s about what a thing is and what it’s name evokes.
I agree, it just happens what the name evokes varies a lot between people and contexts. That's why I think prescriptivism on the subject doesn't make sense: as long as there's an understanding of what's being talked about, it matters little if the words don't fit on what you or me would prefer. Sometimes there may not be such understanding, but it's not difficult to disambiguate. It is easier than to attempt to "correct" people, particularly when the one being corrected is already aware of the issue (just to be clear, I'm not referring to you here).

To add some perspective, the popularity of the Quechua name "Ayahuasca" is in itself testimony to this: the name has extended beyond the Quechua-speaking or Quechua-influenced peoples to peoples that didn't use that word at all. In many cases the same has happened with the use of caapi itself, as you know. So appeals to tradition, which I would consider more convincing in other contexts, seem unconvincing to me here.

A vine only brew IS ayahuasca to me.
And that is perfectly fine. Indeed it seems more historically correct to call a caapi brew "Ayahuasca brew" that to call any particularly admixture Ayahuasca. I'm not debating that.

Words don’t have to loose meaning as they cross cultures
They forcefully do, what was called "Ayahuasca" by the Quechua-speaking peoples some hundreds of years ago surely has little to do with any meaning a completely different culture can give to it. Some people think you can transplant a whole concept outside of its original culture, I don't think so. Our understanding of it is forcefully going to be very different. And if what is being labelled can't be transplanted, the label matters little. So to me the name is a minor issue, as long as there's no confusion to what's being talked about.

I do understand and respect your point of view. I just don't share it and find it more practical to make a different use.

I think the best play is to just dismiss the original ayahuasca as an archaic term and redefine it as the synergistic combo of DMT w/ harmine or harmaline (which are the only two harmalas that ever activate it) or herbs that are predominant in those chems
I agree in principle (not with it being archaic, but with it being of limited usefulness outside its original context), but the problem with neologisms is that either they become popular or they make communication harder instead of easier.

So basically, I think that the definition of ayahuasca should be both narrowed to refer to both caapi and DMT
To some people, that's not narrowing but expanding it, as Ayahuasca would be only caapi, with DMT being an admixture from many possible ones. That's why I think it's a fool's errand to try to make everyone converge towards a single definition, it's better to just be aware of the issue, use it as you think more reasonable, and ask whenever there's some ambiguity.

upon hearing the term, (rightfully) associate it with pharmaceutical and assume that one is referring to ℞-activated DMT
Yes, that seems to be a common issue with that term. As you say, it's a confusion that's very much to be expected.

In a way, all oral DMT+MAOI combos are just "oral DMT", as I'm not aware of a way of having active oral DMT that doesn't involve a MAOI. But that name completely ignores the effect of the MAOI, which often tends to be more decisive than the DMT itself.

As I said, I don't see a solution other than being reasonable with each other. Discussions about the "right" word for something IME tend to serve to polarize the participants even more about why their use is the "right" one, and often lack much substance.
 
For me personally:

Ayahuasca is the caapi vine.

Dmt containing plants are the "light."

Ayahuasca medicine can be with or without light. Outside the Amazon, Ayahuasca is almost never imagined to be without light.

I call rue, the common word used in my native language: üzerlik.

Rue medicine can also be complemented with light.

I use an original name for my own unique local medicine which includes 3-4 plants.

But still, the central healing consciousness in the medicine is rue, just as caapi is traditionally seen or known.

I don't know about caapi in this regard, but fresh rue and stored rue are completely different things, one with a sun-like consciousness, the other mostly inert and mostly seen as a "workhorse" to activate DMT.
 
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The thing is, no one started adopting the use rue in the jungle and calling it ayahuasca or Yaje. The names always refer to species of Banisteriopsis or Tetrapterys etc. The names always refer to species within Malpighiaceae. That’s not lost between the Napo Runa and Shipibo.

Ayahuasca analogues are ayahuasca adjacent and certainly just as useful..and vice versa.

Mostly people aren’t extracting from vines.

Literally the name refers to a vine.
 
The thing is, no one started adopting the use rue in the jungle and calling it ayahuasca or Yaje. The names always refer to species of Banisteriopsis or Tetrapterys etc. The names always refer to species within Malpighiaceae. That’s not lost between the Napo Runa and Shipibo.

Ayahuasca analogues are ayahuasca adjacent and certainly just as useful..and vice versa.

Mostly people aren’t extracting from vines.

Literally the name refers to a vine.
And why is it being in the jungle the correct boundary? You could as easily say, "the thing is, no one started adopting the use of moclobemide and calling it ayahuasca or yaje. The names always refer to alkaloids like harmine or harmaline etc. The names always refer to alkaloids within the beta-carbolines. That's not lost between the south-americans and europeans."

To some people the historical or traditional criteria will "naturally" be the correct ones, to other people the practical, actual use by most speakers, etc.

As I said, I understand your perspective and I don't think it's incorrect or anything like that. But it is, to a degree, arbitrary (as anything related to language), and insisting on an use above another is not very pragmatic. But I think in practice that's not what you do, I haven't seen you "correcting" anyone on the use of the word. So in that sense we agree.
 
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It’s a personal bias. The only formal education I have is in horticulture so I don’t want to apply names to other species etc. I keep the name within the context of traditional Amazonian botany/herbalism. I feel awkward brewing rue and mimosa and calling it ayahuasca.
 
For me pharmahuasca is just extracted harmalas and extracted DMT, so you can skip most of the nauseating stuff.

For me it does not matter if it's extracted from caapi, rue, MHRB, ACRB or any other harmala or DMT containing plants.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
But the other thing is, if science, through its modern ability to understand things, has determined that the two most essential chemicals in hoasca-type brews are DMT and harmine, and if those same chems are available and actively used from other sources and as isolates, than that suggests that instead of just looking at the jungle, we should also be looking at the lab and at all the users. Think of it like looking at threads that are present in each of those things: if it's all the same thread than that suggests it's time to update the name, right? And I used an a/b extraction of caapi as an example on purpose: it highlights that what is usually referred to as "pharmahuasca" isn't so different from caapi.

I feel that the pullback from folding ayahuasca into a catch-all term is an act of splitting hairs. And it's not that I don't respect the traditional language and its meanings and anything minor that might add color to the jungle trip, but it's that I recognize that modern, common language doesn't like to be especially specific. So, what I'm saying is trying to distinguish ayahuasca as B. caapi and asking people to add a "with DMT" footnote is a fool's errand. People these days want simplicity, e.g., someone is more likely to title an article, "Benefits of Ayahuasca", not "On the benefits of ayahuasca with DMT".

That being said, I am open to the idea of restoring ayahuasca's true definition and giving our thing a proper name, say, trypohuasca, but that one won't work—ayahuasca is actually pretty catchy and relatively easy to say, so we'd need to be pretty creative about what we'd come up with. How about simply repurposing Maui? Think about it: Maui, Florida is perhaps the most popular vacation spot ever, so using it for our purposes conveys: a trip, tradition, respect, good vibes, brighter days, nature, sunlight/sun energy, surfing, exotic, tropical—and it's a double entendre for MAOI.

It seems that the vine and any brew involving the vine is usually termed "ayahuasca", no? I don't really see people saying "ayahuasca with DMT".

I don't see much use in getting too caught up on fairly arbitrary words. I just refer to the vine/vine brews as aya. Often I just refer to all of it as oral harmalas/dmt for simplicity, since if I'm talking about my past use I'm referring generally to vine/rue/harmala/mimosa/dmt use in a variety of combinations that don't always fit neatly into "aya" or "pharma". Another reason I'm also hesitant to label them all "aya" is because I find syrian rue for example fairly different. And imagine the reverse: if for example we started calling vine brews "ruehuasca" it would feel rather silly.
 
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There is a clash of two worlds involved in this confusion. Plants vs alkaloids, traditional cosmology vs modern cosmology.

I don't believe there will not be a universally agreed upon consensus on terminology in this case.

If for you this is about alkaloids and extractions, then pharmahuasca is the word for you. If it is about plants, then Ayahuasca, Ayahuasca analogue, rue/harmal/esfand etc are words for you to use.
 
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There’s so many plants that contain DMT and beta carbolines that even calling them all pharmahuasca is too simple.

In the 90s pharmahuasca meant harmine + 5-MeO-DMT to a lot of people when Ott was selling it through his mail order company.

The extracts from many acacia for instance still will not be like pure DMT and should just be called “Acacia obtusifolia extract” etc.

Extracts don’t usually isolate single compounds unless it’s intended.
 
For me personally:

Ayahuasca is the caapi vine.

Dmt containing plants are the "light."

Ayahuasca medicine can be with or without light. Outside the Amazon, Ayahuasca is almost never imagined to be without light.

I call rue, the common word used in my native language: üzerlik.

Rue medicine can also be complemented with light.

I use an original name for my own unique local medicine which includes 3-4 plants.

But still, the central healing consciousness in the medicine is rue, just as caapi is traditionally seen or known.

I don't know about caapi in this regard, but fresh rue and stored rue are completely different things, one with a sun-like consciousness, the other mostly inert and mostly seen as a "workhorse" to activate DMT.
dithyramb, I’ve truly appreciated and been inspired by your writings about rue over the (many) years. I’m currently in the process of rekindling my connection with rue after not consuming any for a decade or so.

I would love to try fresh rue somehow, one day, and don’t doubt what you say about it being superior to stored rue in some important ways.

Having said that, I think you might be undervaluing stored rue, which is what most people have access to. I’ve had numerous journeys with rue, both alone and in combination with mimosa or acacia, and have found them to be expansive and therapeutic in a way that didn’t seem limited to the DMT plants.

There is definitely a certain “spirit” or vibe that comes through for me when consuming stored rue, both alone and with light plants that feels distinct from caapi or pure harmalas, which I attribute to the unique signature of Syrian Rue. This distinct vibe or signature also comes through for me with roasted seeds, which I find to be a lighter experience that still has that unique rue quality.
 
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Hi Ommani! Nice to see you!

You're right. I referred to an extreme case about stored rue to get my point across. İt's not black and white. The strain and the way it is harvested and processed can make a big difference, and reportedly some batches of store bought rue are superior to others, as in @northape's report of his experience with Iranian seeds being superior to others, including being more "spiritual."

Besides that, if you have a basic sensitivity to energies, you will always recognize the essence of rue in an Ayahuasca analogue no matter how old the seeds are.

Yet again, nothing comes close to fresh seeds, imhe 😁
 
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