Definition of Aya vs Pharma

[Jamie01]

You can do the same thing with pharma. I mostly just take a higher dose of rue extract alone. It’s more rare than I even take any DMT.

Anything in the 5-10g of rue range goes deep. So like 200+ mg harmine/harmaline + other alkaloids depending on your extraction.

 

[blig-blug]

I take 230mg of rue alkaloid extract freebase, but as it has been said here, the experience with pharmahuasca is different, and due to the lower nausea I find it less challenging. Upping the harmalas noticeably more will probably increase the nausea, and that makes the experience much more challenging, at least to me. At some point I will go there and I also will use plants, the character is definitely different (I have seen it when I was having mimosa and when I tried rue tea), but right now this is what I'm able to deal with. It has been very productive so far.

 

[northape]

Anyone who has taken large doses of vine(maybe 150-300 grams) and has also eaten Iboga will probly attest to the similarities.

Anything in the 5-10g of rue range goes deep. So like 200+ mg harmine/harmaline + other alkaloids depending on your extraction.

Finally, I hear a voice of wisdom. I'm not alone
I'm all for heavy doses of harmalas. Somehow, I stopped seeing any visions with oral dmt, and it leads to the same place as high dose of harmalas.

I take 230mg of rue alkaloid extract freebase, but as it has been said here, the experience with pharmahuasca is different, and due to the lower nausea I find it less challenging.

You get accustomed even to rue tea, and it gives very little nausea with time. Adding just a tiny bit of dmt to a heavy dose of harmalas usually blocks nausea.
In my experience, it's all about a clean body. After a period of purification, you get less and less nausea. Your body adapts to harmalas and you can tolerate more.

 

[dithyramb]

When ingesting "heroic" doses of rue (7-10g), I have noticed a correlation between adding a very small amount of Russian olive bark to the rue brew and having a very deep, serious death experience that the vine is also (in)famous for giving at very high doses. It's very hard to describe as simultaneously knowing that you are not physically dying, it is a hyperreal passage from the material world, saying goodbye to everything you hold dear and experiencing what feels to be the strongest emotional pain one could ever experience - all meaning constructed in this lifetime melts away. Obviously, such doses are not something I do often, but the last one that did not have any Russian olive, while giving me a most sublime experience that I will cherish all my life, did not give me a death experience but rather an incredible x-ray of my entire energetic/psychological makeup.

All with no DMT.

For me, the space visited with high dose rue alone, and regular dose rue+DMT could be considered the same, however the energetic qualities of DMT and the plant it comes from adds very precious elements to the energy which cannot be achieved with rue alone.

 

[Transform]

When ingesting "heroic" doses of rue (7-10g), I have noticed a correlation between adding a very small amount of Russian olive bark to the rue brew and having a very deep, serious death experience that the vine is also (in)famous for giving at very high doses. It's very hard to describe as simultaneously knowing that you are not physically dying, it is a hyperreal passage from the material world, saying goodbye to everything you hold dear and experiencing what feels to be the strongest emotional pain one could ever experience - all meaning constructed in this lifetime melts away. Obviously, such doses are not something I do often, but the last one that did not have any Russian olive, while giving me a most sublime experience that I will cherish all my life, did not give me a death experience but rather an incredible x-ray of my entire energetic/psychological makeup.

All with no DMT.

For me, the space visited with high dose rue alone, and regular dose rue+DMT could be considered the same, however the energetic qualities of DMT and the plant it comes from adds very precious elements to the energy which cannot be achieved with rue alone.

I'm limbering up to do some more deeper rue dosing, so I'll be dusting off my sea buckthorn bark for comparison. "My own, personal sea buckthorn" at that

 

[Jamie01]

I have some sea buckthorn too but not much..never tried it. I was living where Russian olive was invasive for a while in 2020 and had a few really good experiences drinking the bark teas. One in particular I could have sworn I drank a potent vine brew.

Then I moved to an island where neither grow outside of yards.

 

[dithyramb]

I have some sea buckthorn too but not much..never tried it. I was living where Russian olive was invasive for a while in 2020 and had a few really good experiences drinking the bark teas. One in particular I could have sworn I drank a potent vine brew.

Russian olive has no harmine, harmaline, or tetrahydroharmine. It has no common alkaloids with caapi as far as I know, but still it feels more similar to caapi than rue. It could be about the catechins. The stems from which the bark is used sometimes look like enlarged vine to me. It actually grows crooked, even laterally. Another testament to the fact that what makes a plant spirit is not just the mainstream alkaloids.

Sea buckthorn is very interesting, please share your experiences.

 

[Transform]

Let's have a look at that list:
2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline [=2-MTHBC]
1,2-dihydroharmaline [=THH]
Dihydroharmane [Dihydroharman]
3,3-dimethyl-1,3-dihydro-indol-2-one
Harmane [Harman]
Harmol
N-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline [=2-MTHBC synonym]
N-methyltetrahydroharmol
Tetrahydroharmane [Tetrahydroharman]
Tetrahydroharmol
2,3,4,9-tetrahydro-1-methyl-1H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole [=Tetrahydroharman synonym]

It's fine to point these things out, but at least try to understand what you're copy-pasting - redundancy and replication of typographical errors suggests this isn't entirely the case.


Sea buckthorn heartwood has a veryinteresting fluorescence, but that's getting a bit off-topic. It probably contains harmol and its n-hydro-derivatives, though.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

I don’t know why a lot of main figures in the community don’t or won’t acknowledge this but I assume it’s because they just have never spent time doing diets and drinking strong vine or rue only teas.

it’s also just different… learning how to travel in dreams on harmalas is not the same as travelling on DMT or LSD. It’s a skill you acquire and most people don’t want to lay still in the dark trying to dream. Most people want the big show..they want feathers and rattles and visions full of snakes and some story about profound vomiting…

The visionary states that strong rue teas or high harmine/harmaline doses provide are clearly underrated. Since I discovered and integrated rue in my life (teas as well as extracts) I only consume very little DMT anymore. I think 90% of my rue consumption is without anything else. Rue visions are very different from those from DMT, they look more like dreams visions. With strong rue or extract doses I usually fall in a sort of hypnagogic state, full of dreamy visions while my thoughts can go deep and control these visions. My sweet spot with extracts is about 300mg harmine/harmaline and I usually make rue teas with 5-6g seeds (12g was my maximum but with weak seeds). Any doses lower than that make me feel something is missing.

 

[Transform]

The visionary states that strong rue teas or high harmine/harmaline doses provide are clearly underrated. Since I discovered and integrated rue in my life (teas as well as extracts) I only consume very little DMT anymore. I think 90% of my rue consumption is without anything else. Rue visions are very different from those from DMT, they look more like dreams visions. With strong rue or extract doses I usually fall in a sort of hypnagogic state, full of dreamy visions while my thoughts can go deep and control these visions. My sweet spot with extracts is about 300mg harmine/harmaline and I usually make rue teas with 5-6g seeds (12g was my maximum but with weak seeds). Any doses lower than that make me feel something is missing.

Right. There's good reason why Dale Pendell dubbed harmel "the Poison of Dreaming". Those hypnogogic visions are something else. I've found myself wholly wrapped up in preposterous dreamstate scenarios only to realise "what the hell is this?" and snap myself out of it. Usually this comes from noticing how I've started grimacing - changing the facial expression back to a Buddha-smile works every time.

Adding a dash of DMT plant lightens up* the visions, exactly as the Amazonian practitioners say.

*by this I mean it adds clarity. The visions still have the potential to be terrifying, as ever.

 

[blig-blug]

Just a pedantic side note, but as far as I can see, both "harmane" and "harman" are correct spellings, no? Harmane - Wikipedia

 

[blig-blug]

About those harmala visions, I have noticed in those occasions where I didn't absorb the mimosa well that they seem to require focus and attention to sustain them, although I can imagine that at higher doses the effort required is less.

 

[dithyramb]

About those harmala visions, I have noticed in those occasions where I didn't absorb the mimosa well that they seem to require focus and attention to sustain them, although I can imagine that at higher doses the effort required is less.

When the seeds are fresh, the visions are hyper imposing (and hyper realistic, and hyper colorful) - quite the opposite of needing sustained focus to maintain them. And if you eat the seeds ... You are under total possession.

I suspect there are more pronounced anticholinergic elements in fresh seeds ( and that they are not really soluble in water). Anticholinergic activity is obscurely mentioned in some studies. This is obviously besides the cholinergic effects of the known alkaloids.

 

[Transform]

Harman's a pretty daft name, with or without the 'e', tbh
I encourage omitting the e both because of it being a fully aromatic species (i.e. in contrast with alkanes) and in analogy with tryptophan, where the spelling "tryptophane" is essentially deprecated.

I feel this helps with orderly thinking, since I need all of that that I can get

In contrast, I'd discourage dropping the 'e' from alkaloidal names ending in -ine - like they mainly do - (whereas it gets omitted in the German forms because of the terminal -e forming the plural) in order to keep a distinction with various non-nitrogenous substances such as catechin, and various enzymes (e.g. papain).

The reason I'm applying pedantry to all this is because thoughtlessly propagating typographical errors has already been problematic enough in science. One hilarious (to me ) example is the star Betelgeuse, which only the German speakers call "Beteigeuze" - which is obviously a transcription error. However, German wikipedia helpfully points out that "Betelgeuse" is itself wrong due to a transcription error out of the Arabic ( يد الجوزاء ) - it's actually "yad al-ǧauzā", meaning "hand of the giant", but somebody overlooked a diacritic that distinguishes 'b' from 'y' - while discreetly failing to mention that in German it's even more wrong.

<end of rant>

I saw a photo of an old vial, perhaps British in origin, that said Adrenalin.

That will most likely have been either very old, or German, quite possibly both.

 

[northape]

It's wonderful that many of us embrace harmalas and what they have to teach.
We've come a long way from seeing them as just a maoi to activate dmt.

Harmalas and dmt complement each other well. It was the genius of our ancestors to find such high-level medicine.
We should distinguish their functions and have some know-how about their use, though.
I feel that the main teaching force is in harmalas (rue, ayahuasca, or alkaloids), and they should be treated accordingly.

Dmt explosions are nice, and dmt has its place, but the combination is bigger than its individual parts.
Somehow, harmalas and dmt also attract a specific type of character.
Nexus is quite distinct from shroomery, but maybe that's just my ego talking (ideas of grandeur).
What do you think?

 

[LuxObscura]

Somehow, harmalas and dmt also attract a specific type of character.
Nexus is quite distinct from shroomery

How is the nexus?
How is shroomery?
In which way are both distinct?
What type of character does dmt and harmala attract in your opinion?

 

[blig-blug]

To me, harmalas feel very protective. I'm seriously considering combining them with other psychedelics when I have again something other than DMT+harmalas.

Before my experiences with rue, harmalas, mimosa, and DMT, it was very difficult for me to focus on the experience. I tended to move a lot and direct my attention outwards in order to attempt to avoid facing the difficult material and feelings that came up. I wasn't fully aware that that's what I was doing, but it was.

Harmalas allow me (and even force me, initially) to direct my full attention to the experience. They teach me not to move during the most intense parts, with nausea and discomfort if I do. They allow me to experience painful memories and realizations without being engulfed by them. I have described the effect sometimes as "a virtual machine for emotions": they are there and are real, but somehow safely sandboxed, contained.

Before having pharmahuasca I'm always nervous, but soon after having the initial dose of harmalas, that nervousness vanishes and I start feeling fully ready for the experience. Even if there was no pharmacological advantage of taking harmalas some time before the DMT containing component, I would still do it for this reason.

Some days, my mood has been very unstable due to lack of sleep and a stressful situation. In those days, I've felt like I can't stand myself, kind of out of control, and my usual centering practices don't work well (or I'm unable to make them work). 200mg of harmalas fully stop all that, and leave my mood balanced and much more calm.

They're really amazing, and I'm surprised it took me so long to discover them. Somehow, they're very underappreciated. The good part of that is that it makes them less likely to be banned or restricted, which seems to be the ultimate destiny of every powerful substance.

 

[Transform]

They're really amazing, and I'm surprised it took me so long to discover them. Somehow, they're very underappreciated. The good part of that is that it makes them less likely to be banned or restricted, which seems to be the ultimate destiny of every powerful substance.

Unless you happen to live in France, Australia or Canada(?), and maybe a handful of other retrogressive states.

 

[blig-blug]

Unless you happen to live in France, Australia or Canada(?), and maybe a handful of other retrogressive states.

Ah yes, I forgot about that. The case in France specifically looked very much like religious persecution, as if I recall correctly it was made to target Santo Daime (but also affecting every user of the substance).

Here in Spain there's now a lot of precedent that the different plants and their brews are not illegal. However, between 2021 and 2023 the special police unit against dangerous cults targeted Santo Daime as well, even though they were doing nothing illegal. Several times they irrupted in the middle of a ceremony and arrested everyone. In every case the case was archived, but I can imagine that the experience had to be terrifying and traumatizing for those involved, probably making future ceremonies much more frightening and challenging. All of this was combined with press articles talking about the "Amazonian drug that makes you insane". I'm very surprised all that didn't end with the plants banned, but somehow it petered out and stopped.

 

[northape]

How is the nexus?

Nexus tends to attract people with higher education, the scientific type with curiosity about everything, in my opinion.

How is shroomery?

Shroomery is more all over the place. It's like a farmers market with lots of different characters. You can find some fine produce there, but crooks are around too.
They're more into tripping and less skeptical. I'm far from active there, and it's just my limited opinion.

In which way are both distinct?
What type of character does dmt and harmala attract in your opinion?

They overlap quite a lot, but DMT attracts explorers, alchemists, and those willing to go deep.
It's not about just blowing your mind, but about understanding what has happened and trying to reproduce it.
Certainly, there is lots of bias in my answer. Take it with a pile of salt