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Definition of Aya vs Pharma

dithyramb said:
Hi Ommani! Nice to see you!

You're right. I referred to an extreme case about stored rue to get my point across. İt's not black and white. The strain and the way it is harvested and processed can make a big difference, and reportedly some batches of store bought rue are superior to others, as in @northape's report of his experience with Iranian seeds being superior to others, including being more "spiritual."

Besides that, if you have a basic sensitivity to energies, you will always recognize the essence of rue in an Ayahuasca analogue no matter how old the seeds are.

Yet again, nothing comes close to fresh seeds, imhe 😁
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This is both why I've hoarded good batches, and persisted in attempting to grow my own plants. In respect of the latter point, things are looking a bit more promising this year, but it still relies on me not doing anything stupid.
 
Ayahuasca is Caapi; what more is there to say? It has a very recognizable Spirit working behind the scenes.
Rue is quite different and has a different energetic profile. Still, I would never correct anyone about the words they use.

It's all about the meaning you put into it. I like the term Medicine, because it articulates one's relationship to the plants.
Everything could be a drug or medicine, and the end result is actually up to us humans.

When it comes to live plants, I think they are more healing and have much more life force behind them.
However, it all depends on preparation and our intention. We can cook a real medicine even with dry plants.

Ayahuasca is a science and an art form; all attempts here are child's play in comparison to what is possible.
Modern tradition is in its infancy, and we carry our Western baggage with us, which complicates things.
People from the Amazon were much more connected to Nature and the energy of the planet.
Westerners tend to blush and retract when you speak about energies and similar things. They have no place in our worldview.
Given our pride in knowledge, we tend to know better than anyone else, too.

Things are changing, indigenous wisdom is disappearing, and society is consuming more and more of the planet.
Don't get stuck on terminology; work with plants, learn from them, and bring their wisdom to the world.
🙏
 
bk2492 said:
They're still similar, unlike, say, mescaline. So ayahuasca—as a novel catch-all term—still works. I'm just saying, since many people have inadvertently changed the definition of ayahuasca to mean simply harm(al)ine+DMT we might as well just embrace that to prevent constant corrective comments.
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To each their own. However, people here should know the facts. There's plenty of information on Nexus to gain a clear understanding of the term.
Those who have worked with aya and rue would never mistake them. They are different spirits and offer different journeys and teaching styles.

bk2492 said:
I'm curious, have you tried highly pure harm(al)ine? How is its energy by comparison?
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I don't know about highly pure, but I've used Manske extract from rue many times. My usual practice was with teas or water extraction, which should tell you a lot.
Extract is much easier on the body and gives a cleaner headspace, but it doesn't have the full power of rue. What many call toxic elements are actually part of the plant and its natural profile. Rue isn't just harmalas; she's an ancient teacher in plant form. Many times, when I used the extract, I met a very angry woman who yelled at me. The Rue Spirit herself wasn't pleased with my extract and made that clear. I feel it simply lacks the power for the work I'm doing. So, I'm all for traditional full-spectrum water extraction, or tea.
🙏
 
Ayahuasca is Caapi for me, in form of brew.
Pharma extracts are also useful, but are somehow simplified, they lack some aspects of the plant.
 
Etymologically

Aya-Huasca means Vine of the Soul/Spirit/Death (Quechua language)

Pharmahuasca means roughly "Vine of the pharmaceutical industry" ( English + Quechua). Doesn't seem accurate, or even to make any sense.

I was playing with names back when I was a kid having a honeymoon with psychedelic plants. I called rue + mimosa Mimoruasca.

İf we are open, we could attempt to create a new name that etymologically makes sense for extraction based harmala + DMT. I don't have to be the one to suggest names. What we call pharmahuasca is an attempt to bring together the bare backbone alkaloids found in Ayahuasca together. Once we are clear about the meaning, then we can have a shot at coming up with an accurate name.

BTW, very interesting that pharmahuasca was originally used for harmalas + 5-MeO-DMT, @jamie. What were the purported effects? My own limited experience with 5 containing grasses and rue gives a picture of a static, inert euphoric/orgasmic state without much content. It never gave me the impression of something to be pursued in the long term, even when it is safe.
 
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dithyramb said:
Pharmahuasca means roughly "Vine of the pharmaceutical industry" ( English + Quechua). Doesn't seem accurate.
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Not really! "Pharma" exists in English (and other languages), yes, but it's actually Greek. From pharmakon, which means either a medicine or a poison (as ancient Greeks didn't make an arbitrary division there). And there's no industry there or relationship with the pharmaceutical industry.

It's true that the "vine" part doesn't make much sense there. "Thanatopharmakon" (or from it "thanatopharma") would be more elegant, and the Greek in it could account for the fact that it's a product of Western civilization. But this is just for fun, not any real proposal.
 
@blig-blug, sure, but I would say that the pharma in this case actually refers to the modern paradigm of medicine, which is about singled out active ingredients, and this makes it closer to the meanings associated with "pharmaceutical industry." Imv it's just a poor attempt at coining a term.
 
Same in Spanish. I think it may be because English is a Germanic language but then has a very high percentage of French vocabulary, which makes it much more confusing in its etymology from the perspective of the average speaker, that can't easily recognize the different word roots (more educated speakers can).

I imagine from a Turkish perspective etymology has to be even more important, I studied (very) basic Turkish for one year and was surprised to see how it's even more based in constructing derivations from roots, kind of like in Latin.
 
Yes, English is highly based on memorization, which to me would be an intelligence blunting factor, but who knows. And yes, Turkish might be one of the most systematic languages, despite having tons of borrowed words from other languages as well. Spanish is a language that actually makes sense to me, I hope to learn it to a decent degree some day.
 
Ott used the terms “pharmahuasca”, “pharmapena”, pharmayopo” etc to describe combining harmine(in his case) with DMT, or as a snuff with 5-MeO-DMT, or with bufotenine.

He began selling pills…one with harmine and one with 5-MeO-DMT that people were using orally as a “pharmahuasca”. The point was 5-MeO-DMT was still legal back then.

I can’t say any more about it. Probly going to have to search the net for old info.

I’m not aware of the term “pharmahuasca” being used before Ott…but it could have been someone else.

I think Ott also used the term “ayahuasca borealis” to refer to all the different analogue teas.
 
blig-blug said:
Same in Spanish. I think it may be because English is a Germanic language but then has a very high percentage of French vocabulary, which makes it much more confusing in its etymology from the perspective of the average speaker, that can't easily recognize the different word roots (more educated speakers can).

I imagine from a Turkish perspective etymology has to be even more important, I studied (very) basic Turkish for one year and was surprised to see how it's even more based in constructing derivations from roots, kind of like in Latin.
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Not only that, but a bunch of big and clever words of Greek and Latin derivation were added during the 19th century, mostly to annoy the French :p
Scientific terminology is generally derived from graeco-latin formal roots as well. English is generally very open to loan words if they perform a sufficiently useful (or amusing) function as well - "a highly promiscuous language".
 
Anyone who has taken large doses of vine(maybe 150-300 grams) and has also eaten Iboga will probly attest to the similarities.

I don’t know why a lot of main figures in the community don’t or won’t acknowledge this but I assume it’s because they just have never spent time doing diets and drinking strong vine or rue only teas.

it’s also just different… learning how to travel in dreams on harmalas is not the same as travelling on DMT or LSD. It’s a skill you acquire and most people don’t want to lay still in the dark trying to dream. Most people want the big show..they want feathers and rattles and visions full of snakes and some story about profound vomiting…

Tbh it’s all fairly cliche at this point…the whole ayahuasca hype. Everyone is into it-none of them know a damn thing about it.

There’s so many ceremonies around here every weekend it’s all I hear…”Ayahuasca this ayahuasca that”…everyone is so keen to tell everyone else about it because they drank it 4 times.

If I drink 5 grams of vine I drank ayahuasca. The average person into this stuff can’t understand that logic…they need it to be this big frickin super event full of fireworks. They want showmanism and not shamanism.

IMO
 
Jamie01 said:
Anyone who has taken large doses of vine(maybe 150-300 grams) and has also eaten Iboga will probly attest to the similarities.

I don’t know why a lot of main figures in the community don’t or won’t acknowledge this but I assume it’s because they just have never spent time doing diets and drinking strong vine or rue only teas.

it’s also just different… learning how to travel in dreams on harmalas is not the same as travelling on DMT or LSD. It’s a skill you acquire and most people don’t want to lay still in the dark trying to dream. Most people want the big show..they want feathers and rattles and visions full of snakes and some story about profound vomiting…

Tbh it’s all fairly cliche at this point…the whole ayahuasca hype. Everyone is into it-none of them know a damn thing about it.

There’s so many ceremonies around here every weekend it’s all I hear…”Ayahuasca this ayahuasca that”…everyone is so keen to tell everyone else about it because they drank it 4 times.

If I drink 5 grams of vine I drank ayahuasca. The average person into this stuff can’t understand that logic…they need it to be this big frickin super event full of fireworks. They want showmanism and not shamanism.

IMO
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As I don't know anyone from that community or what that community even is, I can't comment on that. However, who cares? If they want fireworks let them have them. If their use is shallow and they don't get much out of it, it's their loss. And if they don't understand the way you use it, how does it matter? It doesn't take anything away from your experience.

More broadly, to me this is the problem with the focus on supposed "communities" that aren't really so (that is, aren't people who rely on each other on their daily lives) but are more like fandoms. In the end, for them it's all a social game and a status game. I'm all for sharing with like-minded people (that's why we are here after all), but one has to take the good parts and the good people from it and ignore the rest.
 
Jamie01 said:
I care because of chronic pessimism.
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I understand then. To be fair, it's to be expected that most people aren't going to want to go deep. It's hard work. Me myself, I have been using pharmahuasca because I'm not ready yet for more challenging experiences, and it's not like the pharmahuasca ones aren't being pretty challenging already. I'm working on it, but I'm not there yet. So I'm in no place to criticize people for not going all in.
I think most people in any environment are going to be more devoted to social signalling or fun experiences than doing difficult stuff that, as you say, requires skill development and wanting to go deep. I wish it were different but it's better to just accept it.
 
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