Depression Chemical Imbalance Doesn't Exist

[jamie]

"There is a debate as to what causes depression. One side of the field views it as a disorder. The other side views it as a normal process of chemical interaction caused by a source outside the body. Physical abuse for example."




Mental Disorder..

"A mental disorder or mental illness is a psychological pattern, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture. Mental disorders are generally defined by a combination of how a person feels, acts, thinks or perceives."

Pysical abuse, sexual abuse, abandonment etc are not part of the normal development of a persons culture(unless the culture itself is sick which is a whole other thread). Depression certainly is a psychological pattern, that seems to reinforce negative feedback loops that can lead later on to imbalances in neurotransmitter levels. It is also quite possible that an imbalance of neurotransmitter levels can first occur and depression can follow.

The whole debate above is sort of silly because they are trying to make it out to be either or. Thing are not always that one sided. Sometimes things are far more complex that that.

Take the placebo effect for example..would you argue that someone who believes they will beat a disease so much that they actaully do against all odds does not have some very real physiological ramifications taking place inside of them? Of course they do.

Why does it matter if it started with some sort of emotional event outside of them or not?

The idea that you can not identify it durring at autopsy is a flimsy one to use to make a case here..because it can be shown while a person is alive that there are very real, tangible chemical differences in people with emotional trauma compared to people without past trauma on a similar scale.

 

[jamie]

http://pmbcii.psy.cmu.edu/events/20100415/Heim%20et%20al%20Mol%20Psychiatry%202009.pdf

 

[anrchy]

I think we both Agree on what causes depression and how to properly treat it.

My main concern is that it is being treated through medication alone and that therapy is being ignored. The consensus is that it can be treated chemically, and I disagree with this. None of my opinions In the matter are biased by an anger towards the pharma companies. I see that there is a chemical change in someone who experiences psychological trauma.

A common idea is that depression can be only a chemical imbalance caused by abnormalities in the brain rather than anything psychological. My original link was not a very good example of what I am trying to convey so I apologize for that. But there are some talk on it in there. I will try an find a better one I promise.

 

[anrchy]

And the doc beat me to it. Although his post wasn't one I had found so I'm glad he posted it.

I'll repost it here. I quote a section of it that hits in the key point I've been tryijg to make.

the idea that depression is caused primarily by a serotonin “imbalance” is a description of the processes underlying the disorder so simplified it renders itself inaccurate. The serotonin hypothesis, proposed decades ago, gained increased support of late due to the efficacy of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) in treating depression

Corpus's link
http://neuroscientificallychallenge...erotonin-hypothesis-and-neurogenesis.html?m=1

I think SSRI's are falsely treating anything. They can and have made depression worse or harder to deal with. Masking ones emotions rather than displaying them do they can be understood and dealt with properly.

 

[corpus callosum]

SCHALER: I beg to differ, a diagnosis is not made on the basis of a cluster of symptoms, it is made on the basis of a cluster of signs.

^^I take issue with this; diagnoses are made on the basis of BOTH the symptoms (gleaned from the history) and the signs (picked up on examination).

 

[anrchy]

I agree there are discrepancies I the arguments on both sides many time. They are all changing te definitions of the words in order to try and make there points. There's a lot of back and forth going on about semantics and understandings of explanations. But that's to e expected when people are trying to convey the message.

I admit that isn't the best I can come up with. Work became very busy so I haven't had much time to research more and post.

 

[anrchy]

It's kind of surprising that they would medicate people for depression. If someone kept having toothaches from cavities you fix the problem rather than prescribe lifetime pain meds. Beings that depression is a psychological problem rather than a chemical problem it shouldnt be treated in this way at all. Yes there are changes in the amount of chemicals in your body due to the distress, but especially since so little is known about what all is affected chemically it shouldn't be treated in this way.

I can't imagine what would happened if we figured out the complete chemical composition of depression. Then made a pill that reversed it. Your dad beats you but your ok with it? Would it be the same as dealing with it emotionally?

 

[corpus callosum]

^^I think that this oversimplifies things.Theres numerous ways in which depression has been classified (endogeneous vs reactive, primary vs secondary etc) and certainly with some of the secondary causes (for example hypothyroidism, any of the causes of hypercalcemia, iatrogenic) there is undoubtedly a 'chemical' mechanism underlying it.

 

[anrchy]

So there ARE physical abnormalities than can cause depression?

 

[Citta]

So there ARE physical abnormalities than can cause depression?

Yes.

 

[christian]

Depression is usually caused, and probably only caused, by an event in your life. Your body doesn't simply create less serotonin to make you feel depressed. There are many more things going on in your body. Depression is a defense mechanism to help you out of a situation. Keeps you from wanting to continue what is causing it.

this, this, this!!!!!

I'm so with the above because when i look back in my life to when i was depressed, it was because of outside factors. Sure, they may lead to brain imbalances, but nevertheless the CAUSE was an outside event that caused an inner hurt that started it all off.

It could be something like a close friend having more work and relationship sucess than you, it could be not measuring up to what the media says is normal, it could be anything like that. Just count your own blessings and take it from me, that a simple life with least of posessions and cares is the happiest. Find peace in the simple things in life like nature, family, friends, partner, and your dreams and hopes.

What seperates those that get depressed from those that don't, is "getting on with it", and stubbing it out as soon as it's noticed.

I'm sure chemical imbalances can be found, but these are symptoms, but not the cure. The cure IMO is to understand the causes and have the guts to admit this to a delicate ego. Pills aren't really the answer if you wanna get to grips with mastering life which includes facing and defeating depression-which is always around the corner to challenge anyone wanting to grow in life. 8)

 

[anrchy]

What is the procedure to deal with it? Anti depressants or deal with the actual cause?

I can understand this situation. Would he much like taking a medication for ED and having it cause depression as a side effect. I guess I did know this, as fibromyalgia has been thought to cause depression as well.

 

[SeekerOfTruths]

What is the procedure to deal with it? Anti depressants or deal with the actual cause?

I can understand this situation. Would he much like taking a medication for ED and having it cause depression as a side effect. I guess I did know this, as fibromyalgia has been thought to cause depression as well.

I think you have that backwards, most of the professional medical community I know believes fibromyalgia is a non-existent disease but just a manifestation of depression. Of course they would never tell anyone who thinks they have fibromyalgia this, or chronic fatigue syndrome.

 

[corpus callosum]

So there ARE physical abnormalities than can cause depression?

Citta is spot-on when he says 'yes'; heres a link which has a pretty comprehensive table of the medical ailments which can cause psychiatric symptoms, including those of depression (Table 1):

Psychiatry Articles (Diagnosis, Treatment, Prognosis, Follow-up) - Medscape Reference

Psychiatry articles covering symptoms, diagnosis, staging, treatment, prognosis, and follow-up. Peer reviewed and up-to-date recommendations written by leading experts.

emedicine.medscape.com

Treatment of the underlying cause is the best way to manage these, assuming treatment is possible.

 

[joedirt]

I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse. :thumb_dow

I hope that when you are at your lowest moment in life someone stops and reaches a hand down to help you up instead of 'dishing' it out to you for being such a pansy.

Peace

 

[corpus callosum]

What is the procedure to deal with it? Anti depressants or deal with the actual cause?

I can understand this situation. Would he much like taking a medication for ED and having it cause depression as a side effect. I guess I did know this, as fibromyalgia has been thought to cause depression as well.

I think you have that backwards, most of the professional medical community I know believes fibromyalgia is a non-existent disease but just a manifestation of depression. Of course they would never tell anyone who thinks they have fibromyalgia this, or chronic fatigue syndrome.

The thinking on fibromyalgia is changing, albeit slowly.Theres a number of theories put forward including a dysfunction of the ascending nocioceptive tracts in the spinal cord and brainstem, channelopathies, disorders of the Krebs Cycle etc.Abnormalities in the levels of certain cytokines have been found but as yet, the exact mechanism is far from clear.Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome management is progressing and my gut feeling is that it/they do exist as clinical entities.

Its also a field where the modern-day snake-oil sellers are thriving, in part because conventional medicines ability to deal with it is lacking.

 

[christian]

I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse. :thumb_dow

I hope that when you are at your lowest moment in life someone stops and reaches a hand down to help you up instead of 'dishing' it out to you for being such a pansy.

Peace

MMMM.... I think one of the best things someone depressed could do, is to switch off their computer, and go outside. That is the real world you have to find a way of mastering. The internet is mostly hot air, opinions, and god knows what. Wether you think it works for you or not, the REAL WORLD is what you need to get to grips with. Find a nice way of living, cos you are after all divinity embodied.

When you're depressed it's probably because you're living against the natural flow of life which is effortless and mostly laid out. All you have to do is say YES! :shock:

 

[joedirt]

I'm so with the above because when i look back in my life to when i was depressed, it was because of outside factors. Sure, they may lead to brain imbalances, but nevertheless the CAUSE was an outside event that caused an inner hurt that started it all off.

So you don't think it was actually your response to the outside event that was responsible and not the vent itself?

take 10 people in put then in really stressful situations. Some become depressed, some don't. All experience the same event, but only some are depressed.

Look. point blank. Depression can arise from chemical imbalance. Want to prove it to your self? For the next 3 day's drink to the point of being stumbling drunk. Then go cold turkey. By day three you will be depressed. Don't like that experiment? Go take MDMA for three day's in a row. Take two tabs each day... Then go cold turkey.

Drink coffee everyday? Quit. Notice that lethargy? That's a brain chemical imbalance? Notice that headache? Same thing.

Come one people. We know a LOT about brain chemistry these day's, and yes we have a lot more to learn, but to say depression isn't caused by a chemical imbalance is simple wrong.

Also one last point. A little humility and empathy goes a long way because not a single one of us has ANY clue what is going on in the mind of another. You may not suffere depression and think it's all BS, but to those suffering it's very real. Show some empathy.

Peace

 

[christian]

Look. point blank. Depression can arise from chemical imbalance. Want to prove it to your self? For the next 3 day's drink to the point of being stumbling drunk. Then go cold turkey. By day three you will be depressed. Don't like that experiment? Go take MDMA for three day's in a row. Take two tabs each day... Then go cold turkey.

Yea, of course, that is OBVIOUS!

Sorry but i forgot to mention everything about depression because i didn't wanna regurgitate book after book.

I meant in the case of a healthy individual, rather than someone living a life of excess.

...BUT. Someone who watches their diet, what they drink, the company they keep, the way they view things is less likely to get depressed. You are right that it's about perception. We all have different ideas about what is stressful to us, but that is another long topic.

 

[corpus callosum]

I can't wait to dish this out to certain people. It's such a drag when people use chemical impalance as an excuse. :thumb_dow

I hope that when you are at your lowest moment in life someone stops and reaches a hand down to help you up instead of 'dishing' it out to you for being such a pansy.

Peace

MMMM.... I think one of the bestr things someone depressed could do, is to switch off their computer, and go outside. That is the real world you have to find a way of mastering. The internet is mostly hot air, opinions, and god knows what. Wether you think it works for you or not, the REAL WORLD is what you need to get to grips with. Find a nice way of living, cos you are after all divinity embodied.

When you're depressed it's because you're living against the naturaql flow of life which is effortless and mostly laid out. All you have to do is say YES! :shock:

Good point Christian- the next time I see someone who is depressed and has an 'incidental' meningioma compressing their frontal lobes, I will advise against neurosurgery and tell them to just yell 'Yes' (ignoring their dysphasia) and explain to them they need to stop living against the flow of natural life. :!:


And while Im at it, I will tell them that their failing vision is not important, as long as their 3rd eye allows them to really 'see', and that their hemiparesis is because their chakras are not alligned rather than having anything to do with the tumour in their skull. :!: :!: