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Desmanthus illinoensis, leptolobus and spp. Workspace
- Thread starter ntwhtyouknw
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Incarnation said:
:thumb_up:
Did you run this plate? Do you have more details? Yield? How did you process D. leptolopus (root)? Where did you find it or did you grow it? Any info on the TLC A/B spots (confusa has two clear ones)? TLC solvent system? Solvent used for base extraction?
Incarnation said:
Thanks for sharing! I suppose its the methanol:ammonia eluent.. Easy to see the DMT spot in both the Acacia and Desmanthus, it's the middle spot, and the lower NMT spot in A. confusa samples.
How big/old was the Desmanthus ? Was it wild or cultivated?
Incarnation
Rising Star
First, thanks to endlessness and others who made such analysis more accessible. It feels like a big step forward to be able to actually visualize plant compounds, rather than just wondering if old net lore is accurate.
The DLRB sample was taken from several small plants, which were started from seed about a year ago.
Yes, methanol:ammonia was used as the eluent and for the crude soak.
The A/B was done with tap water, vinegar, NaOH, and Naphtha.
Yield was not measured. Evaporation of the NPS left a product that resembled commonly seen photos of extracted compounds; white powdery/crystalline shavings. A very similar product resulted when an A/B—>A/B was performed on first-growth foliage clipped from plants only a couple months old.
The DLRB sample was taken from several small plants, which were started from seed about a year ago.
Yes, methanol:ammonia was used as the eluent and for the crude soak.
The A/B was done with tap water, vinegar, NaOH, and Naphtha.
Yield was not measured. Evaporation of the NPS left a product that resembled commonly seen photos of extracted compounds; white powdery/crystalline shavings. A very similar product resulted when an A/B—>A/B was performed on first-growth foliage clipped from plants only a couple months old.
Cool 
Did you have any reagent like ehrlich to further confirm the identification?
Would be good to know total yield.
In a test we made with very young Desmanthus illinoiensis recently, there was some DMT and NMT in small amounts but it was mostly hordenine. I never tested pure hordenine to see where the spot is in TLC neither with reagents... But solubility in merck index says its poorly soluble in naphtha, so that would be a way to remove if it was there in the first place.. Im not sure if leptobolus has it anyways.
Did you have any reagent like ehrlich to further confirm the identification?
Would be good to know total yield.
In a test we made with very young Desmanthus illinoiensis recently, there was some DMT and NMT in small amounts but it was mostly hordenine. I never tested pure hordenine to see where the spot is in TLC neither with reagents... But solubility in merck index says its poorly soluble in naphtha, so that would be a way to remove if it was there in the first place.. Im not sure if leptobolus has it anyways.
Elrik
Rising Star
Do Desmanthus species [or any DMT barks, for that matter] loose any actives upon drying?
I know many herbs have a loss of non-volatile actives by oxidation or enzymatic action in drying, the chinese often briefly steam herbs to prevent this.
I ask because 4 years ago I planted 5 leptolobus as seed producers and now with 5 square metres of lepto planted I plan to harvest the 5 mothers when fall comes, and with such a small extraction [several doses if I'm lucky] I'm wondering if I would be better off boiling the roots fresh and never knowing the yield per dry weight basis.
I know many herbs have a loss of non-volatile actives by oxidation or enzymatic action in drying, the chinese often briefly steam herbs to prevent this.
I ask because 4 years ago I planted 5 leptolobus as seed producers and now with 5 square metres of lepto planted I plan to harvest the 5 mothers when fall comes, and with such a small extraction [several doses if I'm lucky] I'm wondering if I would be better off boiling the roots fresh and never knowing the yield per dry weight basis.
Elrik said:
Please do a side-by-side comparison and lets get it tested! Homogenize the roots, weigh and boil half the fresh roots to extract, the other half you dry and extract, pm me to get both tested and answer your question for everybody in the future
Elrik
Rising Star
Thats a very tempting proposal, as we have little information on the factors effecting DMT/NMT ratio
I just see three confounding issues: procedure, accuracy, and tripping bawlz
• Homogenization would be a mistake as it would cause immediate and extreme enzymatic activity, imagine grating horseradish or crushing wet mustard seed. This would be easy enough to adjust for. Split each root ball vertically and adjust a rootlet here and there to make each side equal in mass, then put one side in a drying pile and one side in an extracting pile. Problem more or less solved.
• Due to the small harvest, even titrating the product out with 0.100 N fumaric acid, any normally tiny errors or variations could effect yield enough to cause wrong conclusions and variations within each rootball could effect total DMT/NMT ratio with only 5 rootballs, since we cant homogenize.
• I hope to have enough to try several doses, but I really have no idea what the yield will be. If yield were only 200 mg I wouldnt have enough to explore after sending off 60 of each half
My 5 sq metre patch might be harvested as early as november 2020. If no one has beaten me to it by then I may try experiments with drying versus fresh extracting, or drying with vs. without steaming when that material is ready. I just think uncertainty would be too high with 5 plants.
I just see three confounding issues: procedure, accuracy, and tripping bawlz
• Homogenization would be a mistake as it would cause immediate and extreme enzymatic activity, imagine grating horseradish or crushing wet mustard seed. This would be easy enough to adjust for. Split each root ball vertically and adjust a rootlet here and there to make each side equal in mass, then put one side in a drying pile and one side in an extracting pile. Problem more or less solved.
• Due to the small harvest, even titrating the product out with 0.100 N fumaric acid, any normally tiny errors or variations could effect yield enough to cause wrong conclusions and variations within each rootball could effect total DMT/NMT ratio with only 5 rootballs, since we cant homogenize.
• I hope to have enough to try several doses, but I really have no idea what the yield will be. If yield were only 200 mg I wouldnt have enough to explore after sending off 60 of each half
My 5 sq metre patch might be harvested as early as november 2020. If no one has beaten me to it by then I may try experiments with drying versus fresh extracting, or drying with vs. without steaming when that material is ready. I just think uncertainty would be too high with 5 plants.
New time d. Illinois growing.
Any tips you recommend?
From what I've observed in nature, they almost prefer terrible soil conditions, on road ways. So I'm going to attempt to replicate that as much as possible. I have two seed groups that were found in different geographical locations and see what sort of yield difference there is.
The only major difference I noticed in the seeding plants was smell. One was very smelly, almost not pleasing at all. The other was semi_noticible but still held a form of dankness. I'll attempt to give some good data when it's available, ie maybe a year or two. But any tips are much appreciated!
Any tips you recommend?
From what I've observed in nature, they almost prefer terrible soil conditions, on road ways. So I'm going to attempt to replicate that as much as possible. I have two seed groups that were found in different geographical locations and see what sort of yield difference there is.
The only major difference I noticed in the seeding plants was smell. One was very smelly, almost not pleasing at all. The other was semi_noticible but still held a form of dankness. I'll attempt to give some good data when it's available, ie maybe a year or two. But any tips are much appreciated!
Incarnation
Rising Star
Hey guys.
Endlessness graciously had some D. leptolobus extract samples tested for me.
Could someone download and post the GC-MS spectra results here, for discussion? My device doesn’t allow me to do so.
This is the download link:
Openchrom can be used to open the files. And probably have to have an add-on installed that allows you to open agilent *.ms files.
Endlessness graciously had some D. leptolobus extract samples tested for me.
Could someone download and post the GC-MS spectra results here, for discussion? My device doesn’t allow me to do so.
This is the download link:
Openchrom can be used to open the files. And probably have to have an add-on installed that allows you to open agilent *.ms files.
Two things.. you can download the NIST database here, it contains the mass spectra of thousands of compounds. I forgot how exactly but there is a way to connect it to openchrom so you can identify the compounds, it shouldn't be too hard to find out. Then you can do some "automatic identification" option where it will give you the most likely answers for each of the peaks. I seem to remember that you might have to first select the peaks before doing the identification, there should be an option where you clean the beginning and the end of each peak. It might take a bit of fussing to get it but once you learn it will be fun and I can start posting the mass spectra files of all the plants we test and you have fun learning how to interpret the results
Another maybe simpler thing you can do is, if you click inside one of the peaks, you should be able to see the mass spectra in another window below. Then you can post the image of each of the mass spectra here, DMT's should be something like this (and it will be one of the peaks in each of those files). Then we can all "manually" interpret them.
Another maybe simpler thing you can do is, if you click inside one of the peaks, you should be able to see the mass spectra in another window below. Then you can post the image of each of the mass spectra here, DMT's should be something like this (and it will be one of the peaks in each of those files). Then we can all "manually" interpret them.
grollum
Rising Star
@endlessness: I got you .
For the use of NIST DB with Openchrom there is a nice tutorial here: OpenChrom and NIST-DB
I will try to extract some data out of those diagrams!
edit: NIST has to wait because of linux software trouble
edit 2: I tried for several hours but finally there is still an error between the db and openchrom.
will give it another try the next days...
.For the use of NIST DB with Openchrom there is a nice tutorial here: OpenChrom and NIST-DB
I will try to extract some data out of those diagrams!
edit: NIST has to wait because of linux software trouble
edit 2: I tried for several hours but finally there is still an error between the db and openchrom.
will give it another try the next days...
Incarnation
Rising Star
Thanks you two.
The 4 files probably correspond to the 4 samples tested.
1) Rootbark water
2) Rootbark A/B
3) Leaf water
4) Leaf A/B
The 4 files probably correspond to the 4 samples tested.
1) Rootbark water
2) Rootbark A/B
3) Leaf water
4) Leaf A/B
Incarnation
Rising Star
So these are the only images I can generate from what I’m currently opening the files on.
Don’t know if anything can be read from these?
Also, it’s generating a log of numbers titled TIC:
It’s 3k+ lines long though, so would probably clutter things up to paste here?
Don’t know if anything can be read from these?
Also, it’s generating a log of numbers titled TIC:
It’s 3k+ lines long though, so would probably clutter things up to paste here?
Incarnation said:
Attachments
grollum
Rising Star
@Incarnation
I can post some screenshots from openchrom later. They have more data in it. I also found a way to analyse the peaks but think it might be wrong.
I can post some screenshots from openchrom later. They have more data in it. I also found a way to analyse the peaks but think it might be wrong.
grollum
Rising Star
Here we go:
Thanks Endlessness for the help and the identification.
@Incarnation:
Can you tell anything regarding the yield you got especially from the leaves?
Awesome that there is NN in the leaves as well.
Thanks Endlessness for the help and the identification.
@Incarnation:
Can you tell anything regarding the yield you got especially from the leaves?
Awesome that there is NN in the leaves as well.
Attachments
Incarnation
Rising Star
Thanks a lot grollum.
Here are the yields copied from the Free Lab Test thread..
Here are the yields copied from the Free Lab Test thread..
Incarnation said:
grollum
Rising Star
Elrik
Rising Star
Boy, now I'm looking forward to testing my extract. I had expected lepto to contain lots of NMT. I may have to rethink using 150 mg oral as my trial dose :lol:
I was surprised to see acetaldehyde in the water extract. If lepto does contain NMT we can expect some 1,2-dimethyl-ß-carboline too.
I assume the root bark yield was calculated on fresh weight?
I got 0,149% alkaloid base from whole root, fresh weight basis
Did you also get a severe emulsion on the A/B?
I was surprised to see acetaldehyde in the water extract. If lepto does contain NMT we can expect some 1,2-dimethyl-ß-carboline too.
I assume the root bark yield was calculated on fresh weight?
I got 0,149% alkaloid base from whole root, fresh weight basis
Did you also get a severe emulsion on the A/B?