Difference between DMT from STB and A/B Extraction

[Paradoxon]

Hello everyone,
i am wondering about my latest experiences. Me and my friends found out, that smoked DMT from STB extraction has a much different effect than DMT from an A/B extraction. Although doing a lot of washing and recrystallisation on the STB-DMT, i wasn´t able to bring it to the same purity as the A/B-DMT. My guess would be, that the defat step in A/B is the important keyfactor. Or i just can´t process it correctly at all of course, but i doubt that. I also had this experience two more times with STB-DMT from someone else.
To get to the point: For me STB-DMT doesn´t get you "as high" as the A/B-DMT and only has minor optical effects. However, it has a more pronounced feeling on the body and is lasting longer. It also doesn´t taste as good and can be a little harsh to smoke. The A/B-DMT is shorter on duration and gives me what i want - great breakthroughs and CEVs and OEVs. It is also a charm to smoke, especially in different changa or enhanced leaf blends.

My guess would be that it is the same like with coffee: if you add milk to the coffee the fats and oils somehow bind the coffein and release it more slowly and gradually. That´s also why you don´t want milk in your espresso. Now, if we are left with oils and fats from the STB route within our DMT, could this result in a more slowly and gradually relase of the DMT in our body? This could expalin the longer duration of the experience and that it doesn´t take you "as high"....??!

My Question is: Did anyone had similar experiences? At least i will not continue the STB-route, whatsoever...

love and light

 

[*oneironaut*]

There are other factors to consider.. but dmt really, is dmt. what plant material was it? I have done stb with MHRB and A/B with Acacia (which contains higher concentrations of NMT) and found only a slight difference (acacia was a bit warmer and less chaotic) but this could also be due to potency and administration (MHRB=freebased AC=changa). In my case the STB from MHRB was quite a bit "stronger" so I don't really think extraction method is the factor. Was this test with same material?

The question is how many experiences of each do you have for comparison. I have had vastly different trips from the same batch. It may just be the unpredictability of the molecule, set, setting and ingestion.

-O

 

[Paradoxon]

Yes, DMT is DMT and i´m well aware of set and setting. I considered all this and that´s why i´m wondering. The DMT from STB never looked that clean like from A/B though. The plant extracted from was always MHRB. And i had many, many great experiences with A/B-DMT (thx to the nexus :thumb_up: ) and many "not so great" experiences with STB-DMT. Of course, i also had many different experiences from the same batch, DMT, Changa... as ususal with psychedelics. But i´m talking about a stronger difference about the two. Like a character of the experience which can be quite distinugished imho...

 

[*oneironaut*]

Certainly possible I guess, but can't imagine what would account for that. Curious indeed.
:?:

 

[Kerberos]

I have always used STB nomans tek and recently CYBs tek. I find that the "quality" of the smoke in terms of harshness as always been down to the solvent used and allowing the product to dry properly.
My STB extractions using Isohexane result in pure white spice that tastes of nothing. In the past, when i have used low odor white spirit; if the spice was not allowed to dry over several weeks it did taste quite bad. With the Isohexane the spice is dry and smells of nothing in a couple of hours from taking out of the freezer.

You state that the spice never looked that great from a STB extraction, i think your STB extraction technique is the reason for your experiences with that spice and not STB v A/B techniques as such. It would take a true blind test to see if there was any difference between spice of similar "quality" from different teks though. It would be interesting to hear from any members who have tried this.

I think i'll do a search after i post this. (i know, should of done one first:roll: )

 

[Vaast]

My friend uses Jorkest's Tek and being an STB spice it's very potent but also wonderfully full spectrum... he favours chali spice. The d-limonene is just magic I think, and there's no defatting. My friend would next like to compare the STB to an A/B using Jorkest Tek, and as he tells me, that's his next experiment!

 

[Gone-and-Back]

I have smoked both STB and A/B extracts of MHRB, as well as my own STB done on Chaliponga. The MHRB extracts I did not notice a difference with, and was not even told they had used different extraction techniques until well after the fact that I had smoked both batches.

With the Chaliponga however, I noticed a huge difference. I was left with a waxy substance that was obviously high in plant fats and oils, because even the MHRB STB was white fluff, where as this was not. (They probably performed re-X). I found that these experiences with the orange waxy DMT took more to breakthrough, a good dose was 60mg compared to the 35mg of the clean MHRB STB and A/B.

The Chali extract was also much warmer and welcoming, and took a little longer to kick in. Not much, but noticeable none the less. I believe it has to do with the other stuff that is mixed in with it. These fats and oils seem to cradle me in a warm blanket while the DMT sends me off into hyperspace, still wrapped in said blanket. With a STB, you are pulling whatever else is in the plant as well as the DMT, so this does have some type of effect on the experience as a whole.

Maybe there are some other active alks in there that we dont know about yet, or maybe these oils and fats are just rewarding us for using them like using the whole plant with Aya. This is just speculation, I do not know.

My 2cents

 

[ZenSpice]

STB on MHRB here, with use of light petroleum distillate for extraction followed by sodium carbonate wash and heptane re-x.. Works like a charm.

Never had an issue with dirty spice but naturally the journeys can be far and wide in their scope.

Another 2 cents for the change tin hehehe :d

 

[endlessness]

Properly done, an STB can yield a product indistinguishable from A/B when tested with mass spectrometry.

I'm pretty sure nobody could tell the difference in a double blind test either.

Of course, there are several variables that can affect end product, but even within a type of method, say A/B, one could end up with oil or yellow wax or white/transparent crystals

and yeah, DMT is DMT.

That being said, personally I usually preffer A/B teks, because you can't really work with STB and separatory funnels, and I find it more messy to work with thick sludge of STB. But I've had great success with STB in the past

 

[ZenSpice]

I know it could well be wrong but in my mind I see successful STB as an entry level achievement (still something to be most happy about) and getting A/B down as the overall benchmark of truly beginning the journey into extraction.

Just my general mindstate on the notion, which includes the idea of Na2CO3 wash and re-x as part of either overall methods end success (like some others I prefer selective solvents and as much straight up n,n as the end result as possible).

 

[Du57mi73]

So, I think everything the OP is describing has to do with one thing. That being the presence of DMT N-Oxide. I believe that the reason you see the difference between A/B and STB is because this; You say you can't ever get your STB as clean as your A/B and that's because what you think is plant oils is actually DMT N-Oxide. DMT N-Oxide is naturally yellow and will give your spice a yellow hue. It is present in your STB but not the A/B. Which is why you think there is a purity difference. Also, you say the STB Spice doesn't get you as enhanced as the A/B and that's because A/B is an extremely pure product, whereas your STB DMT has N-oxide, and maybe even some plant oils still. That n-oxide acts similar to DMT but not exactly. So that might be the difference in effect you feel. DMT n-Oxide also take more weight to feel it just for the simple fact that there's an oxygen attached to it. Not to mention its actually effects are somewhat diminished as well. Yea?

 

[form is emptiness]

A difference in end product (at least in colour), can also result from precipitating the first 2 combined pulls separately from the combined 3rd and latter pulls. This has yielded a ratio of 2:1 of white:yellow spice.

 

[Vodsel]

So, I think everything the OP is describing has to do with one thing. That being the presence of DMT N-Oxide. I believe that the reason you see the difference between A/B and STB is because this; You say you can't ever get your STB as clean as your A/B and that's because what you think is plant oils is actually DMT N-Oxide. DMT N-Oxide is naturally yellow and will give your spice a yellow hue. It is present in your STB but not the A/B.

What makes you say that? DMT N-oxide can be present in plant matter or be a product of oxidation, whether you use STB or A/B extraction methods is irrelevant in regards to N-oxide. The role of DMT N-oxide as culprit for yellow/oily "impurities" has been generally overstated.

Do you have any analytical work proving otherwise, or proving that polar solvents in STB will pull N-oxide and polar solvents in A/B won't?

 

[doodlekid]

What are the reasons to engage in either STB or A/B extraction?

STB is simpler that I know, but what are the more compelling reasons for doing A/B?

As I read, properly done there wouldn't be any qualitative difference between STB & A/B end results. Could it be a matter of input material? Or is there something I overlooked...

 

[Du57mi73]

So, I think everything the OP is describing has to do with one thing. That being the presence of DMT N-Oxide. I believe that the reason you see the difference between A/B and STB is because this; You say you can't ever get your STB as clean as your A/B and that's because what you think is plant oils is actually DMT N-Oxide. DMT N-Oxide is naturally yellow and will give your spice a yellow hue. It is present in your STB but not the A/B.

What makes you say that? DMT N-oxide can be present in plant matter or be a product of oxidation, whether you use STB or A/B extraction methods is irrelevant in regards to N-oxide. The role of DMT N-oxide as culprit for yellow/oily "impurities" has been generally overstated.

Do you have any analytical work proving otherwise, or proving that polar solvents in STB will pull N-oxide and polar solvents in A/B won't?

What I stated was merely a suggestion as to what I thought could be going on. But, I have been hearly a lot lately that the likelyhood of n-oxide formation actually happening is nothing to worry about and overstated.

Since Acid/Base teks are defat first, it removes the n-oxide. Whereas the stb's are only re-x and froze, or just flat out dried. That's why I figure that its in the STB and not the A/B. I also think that it is n-oxide because when I rinse my jars after my re-x, the yellow goo washes away with water, which makes it water soluble, like n-oxide is. Plus it explains his description of everything he was stating. Looked like a duck, sounds like one, must be.

 

[endlessness]

What makes you think that n-oxide will get pulled during a defat? I don't think so. Also not all a/b's use a defat step.

Also, I've never seen any evidence of n-oxide in mimosa, even years old mimosa.. DMT is in salt form and oxidation is not an issue in this case.

doodlekid, as I mentioned before, I find working with a/b nicer because you can discard the bulk of the material before you base the whole thing, so it makes for a cleaner work once you start doing non-polar pulls. Also it is specially useful (or essential) for those using separatory funnels, because otherwise the mimosa pieces would block the separatory funnel.

 

[Paradoxon]

First of all, thank you for the great respond.

I also was speculating about the dmt-n-oxide as a possible reason for the difference. Though i don´t know much about it, i would follow Vodsels argument, that oxidation naturally occurs whatever extraction route is being choosen. Hence, i doubt that dmt-n-oxide is causing the difference, but i can´t exclude it for sure.

The solvent i used is "warehouse grade" clean naphta (wash benzin), which did evap without any visible residues. It gives excellent results using an A/B extraction. I always do a carbonat wash and re-x with lab grade heptane. So i doubt that the solvents are the issue, but again, i can´t exclude it.

The starting material was always very fine shredded "pink" MHRB from the same european vendor. Actually, the MHRB powder is so fine, that after the acid-cook i leave it over night in the fridge, so that the plant material can sediment properly and than carefully decant it trough a Büchner funnel. Hence, the A/B route takes time. But we know good things take their time... Then again, as endlessness says, i also enjoy using a sep funnel. However, the setup i used for the STB-route offers an easy way to seperate the phases. It is a Büchner flask with a tube on top, attached to a manual vacuum pump. So it is similar to a gas washing flask. I attached a picture so anybody who wants to see and use it for their STB-extraction can do so.

After all, of course i have to suspect that it is the way the STB extraction is done, which causes the problem. Thean again, i smoked STB-DMT from someone i didn´t know two times and had the same experiences. So maybe it is a more common problem. I don´t know.

For now, after a less successful A/B wash together with a carbonat wash and re-x with heptane, i found out that converting the freebase to DMT-Fumarat is an effective way of getting rid of that yellow stuff. SO maybe more pharma next time (or of course re-converting...)

 

[Vaast]

The Chali extract was also much warmer and welcoming, and took a little longer to kick in. Not much, but noticeable none the less. I believe it has to do with the other stuff that is mixed in with it. These fats and oils seem to cradle me in a warm blanket while the DMT sends me off into hyperspace, still wrapped in said blanket. With a STB, you are pulling whatever else is in the plant as well as the DMT, so this does have some type of effect on the experience as a whole.

Maybe there are some other active alks in there that we dont know about yet, or maybe these oils and fats are just rewarding us for using them like using the whole plant with Aya. This is just speculation, I do not know.

My 2cents

Gone-and-Back, I have read so many of your posts on tek progress, and I am new, so I'd like to say Hello, nice to meet you, I'm Vaast. Your STB on chaliponga and seeing those pics is what made my friend try it. He also tried and STB on MHRB at the same time and found the exact same thing you mentioned (both Lazyman's). The chali spice was warmer and more euphoric for me than the mimosa spice. He didn't have amazing success until he tried Jorkest's Tek. It looks much different and was way stronger, especially the second time he tried it! But maybe there are other alkaloids, flavonoids and terpenoids lurking around the other known goodies? I would love to learn.. whatever it is, it rocks the casbah!

 

[Paradoxon]

I have a question: Does dmt-n-oxide convert also to DMT-Fumarat if one wants to salt it?

 

[endlessness]

That's an interesting question... Infundibulum said that theoretically, n-oxides can form salts, including fumarate salts, but I don't know if that depends on certain conditions like specific pH ranges, kinda like psilocybin can form salts.

Nevertheless what I can say is that according to my tests, if you salt with FASI, n-oxide does not form precipitated crystals but if you salt with FASW, in case there was any DMT N-oxide present, it would migrate to the acqueous salting layer.

That being said, I think very rarely, if ever, people encounter DMT N-oxide, much more rarely than it is hypothesized.