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Discussion on the "Highly soluble formulations of harmine" patent

Quite weird, what is the reason for this? Sublingual route is quite effective even with a freebase, I assume that some form of sublingual tablets can be easily prepared.
Is the main goal to prepare some kind of sublingual spray?
The main goal appears to be attempting to make a really vague patent in the hope that it may turn out to be profitable somehow. Or, if it's the malate/fructose formulation research you mean, that looks on the face of it very much like a simplified version of ayahuasca for baseline pharmacodynamic investigation, a standardised tool, if you will.
 
I would say that it's mainly qualitative difference in effects, not difference in solubility or absorption. I mean that orally it works differently than sublingually, so you can not substitute one with another.
Ime sublingual absorption is quite quick, at least I never swallow anything. I've tried also harmala tartrate sublingually (which is soluble in water) and did not notice any significant (except the taste was more bitter) difference.
 
I would say that it's mainly qualitative difference in effects, not difference in solubility or absorption. I mean that orally it works differently than sublingually, so you can not substitute one with another.
Ime sublingual absorption is quite quick, at least I never swallow anything. I've tried also harmala tartrate sublingually (which is soluble in water) and did not notice any significant (except the taste was more bitter) difference.
OK. I was thinking of some or other bit of research that suggested plant sugars assisted with alkaloid absorption in ayahuasca - rather like mannose (or mannitol?) assists with psiloc[yb]in absorption, as per some other research.

No references available at this hour [soz, cba!]
 
mainly qualitative difference in effects
But, being qualitatively different, would you say it can get as strong for you through both ROAs?
plant sugars assisted with alkaloid absorption in ayahuasca
Turns out one of the main components in Ayahuasca brews is fructose. I read a paper about it, I'll find it tomorrow. They theorize it may contribute to the stomach effects. Given the low concentrations of harmalas found in the samples, I don't think anything in particular is needed to make them more soluble in Ayahuasca. Plus they found harmalas in the suspended solids too, so it seems like it wasn't that well dissolved to begin with.
 
But, being qualitatively different, would you say it can get as strong for you through both ROAs?

Turns out one of the main components in Ayahuasca brews is fructose. I read a paper about it, I'll find it tomorrow. They theorize it may contribute to the stomach effects. Given the low concentrations of harmalas found in the samples, I don't think anything in particular is needed to make them more soluble in Ayahuasca. Plus they found harmalas in the suspended solids too, so it seems like it wasn't that well dissolved to begin with.

No, sublingual always feels little bit "less deep", you could say it is weaker.

All aya brews I ever tasted has some sweetness in the taste.
 
No, sublingual always feels little bit "less deep", you could say it is weaker.
But for example, are you "able" (not that it's usually an explicit goal) of get those feelings of spinning, flying, dizziness, and visual flickering when the light changes from sublingual harmalas? I've never been able to, but maybe I'm not doing it right or waiting enough time before swallowing. It does feel qualitatively different but also like a lower dose (to me).
 
OK. I was thinking of some or other bit of research that suggested plant sugars assisted with alkaloid absorption in ayahuasca - rather like mannose (or mannitol?) assists with psiloc[yb]in absorption, as per some other research.
Some people claims that clear mushroom tea has much weaker effect that tea+mushroom solids. Whole this solubility/absorption topic is quite complicated.
 
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But for example, are you "able" (not that it's usually an explicit goal) of get those feelings of spinning, flying, dizziness, and visual flickering when the light changes from sublingual harmalas? I've never been able to, but maybe I'm not doing it right or waiting enough time before swallowing. It does feel qualitatively different but also like a lower dose (to me).
Afaik all these symptoms are mainly sign of ingestion of harmaline, which is subjectively dominant in rue. Do you have it also from caapi?

I use caapi and I do not experience lot of differencies in effects.
I also vaguely remember from the past that rue extract caused it for me with both ROA. Definitely not so different as you describe it.
 
Afaik all these symptoms are mainly sign of ingestion of harmaline, which is subjectively dominant in rue. Do you have it also from caapi?
Makes sense, this is from rue harmalas, yes. I haven't experienced it with caapi, but my experience with caapi is still limited. However I haven't been "able" to experience this from sublingual rue harmalas.

I also vaguely remember from the past that rue extract caused it for me with both ROA. Definitely not so different as you describe it.
It may be an individual difference then. Or maybe I'm swallowing too soon.

Maybe I was interpreting my caapi doses to be weaker than they actually were, based on what you're saying. With so many combinations possible, it's always hard to know what's contributing to what.
 
Some people claims that clear mushroom tea has much weaker effect that tea+mushroom solids. Whole this solubility/absorption topic is quite complicated.

According this this source baeocystin | 21420-58-6 baeocystin is only slightly water soluble, and that could at least partially explain the altered subjective intensity. The last couple times I made mushroom tea I also drank some rue tea prior, so I don't have any fresh experiences of my own to draw empirical data from.
 
According this this source baeocystin | 21420-58-6 baeocystin is only slightly water soluble, and that could at least partially explain the altered subjective intensity. The last couple times I made mushroom tea I also drank some rue tea prior, so I don't have any fresh experiences of my own to draw empirical data from.
That's pretty vague solubility data! Temperature and amount wasn't mentioned, but I would guess that "slightly" soluble is a bit more than "poorly" soluble, but less than "moderately" soluble. And by inference in comparison with DMSO, where heating is mentioned, I would presume that lack of even a qualitative temperature level for water implies that the test would be at between 20 and 25°C, and by extension kind of suggests that heating may well increase baeocystin's solubility, to stretch it to the maximum extent.

It would be interesting to found out where they got the 'data' from since PubChem doesn't even have computed solubility estimates for baeocystin. I'd go as far as suggesting the ChemicalBook information is practically worthless, overall.

 
Absolutely. I don't know if it's totally worthless, however I agree that we need a better source with a more definite value. I can't imagine that it could be very difficult to obtain that data for any mildly motivated individual with the equipment necessary. And apologies for the minor thread derailment as well--I like talking about mushroom tea to a fault.
 
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