DMT and analouges and salvia, compare and contrast

[nivkbecjer]

(this is my first time posting, so i apologize if my etiquette is lax or, conversely, a little overboard)

Hey everyone, glad to finally be a member of this forum. I've been referencing this for years, always highly impressed with the level of knowledge that is passed around on this board. SWIM has still not experienced DMT despite continual near misses for years now, including a friend who has offered to share some extract, another friend with a Bufo toad, and a bag of yopo powder that has been sitting in a plastic bag in SWIMs meditation room for about a year now. SWIM has really wanted to experience it first in a more traditional and mild way (Ayahuasca/mimosahuasca/etc) before being flung all the way in. SWIM is of course very familiar with altered states of consciousness from various (mostly whole plant/fungi sourced) entheogenic substance and has experienced what he believes to be a powerful release of endogenous DMT in the form of an out of body experience caused by a blow to the head, which was one of the most profound experiences of his life. SWIM is an herbalist, with vast knowledge of plants, their constituents, and their effects, and thus is excited to engage in conversation with the caliber of intellect that one finds here.

Introductions aside, i wanted to ask people about similarities and differences they find specifically between smoked DMT and smoked salvia divinorum/Salvinorin A. I know, other than the intensity and duration, the two are worlds apart, and yet... While most reports of salvia experiences are quite different from reports of DMT experiences, every once and a while I read one (and in one case SWIM personally witnessed one) that is almost perfectly in line with the common threads of DMT discussion. For example, the previously mentioned experience that SWIM witnessed. SWIMs friend (who had never used DMT or read mckenna or any other descriptions of the experience), upon returning from a heavy dose of a "20X" (i think? maybe 15X) extract basically described being in a sort of "factory" where "elves" were creating the fabric of the universe. I shit you not.

Did i mention that I am writing a masters thesis on Salvia divinorum? Well actually, the thesis is done, but it is mostly technical, and i want to expand it into something larger that goes more into the experience, analyzing a variety of anecdotal reports, looking for common threads, etc etc.

So ANYWAY, what I'd like to know is whether or not anyone else has had these distinctly DMT like experiences with Salvia. If so, was there still something that was distinctly different and salvia-like? Or is your experience with salvia completely and utterly different than DMT? Any comparison and contrasting of the two from people with a good deal of experience would be very interesting to me.

-Nick
ps - I was going to post this in the salvia forum, but it says I am not allowed to post new topics there, perhaps because i just joined today? i dunno...

 

[Metanoia]

Well I've had lots of experience with Salvia, and have recently begun combining it with DMT. They are different, yet the same. Like two sides of a coin. It's hard to describe the differences for me.

DMT seems to be easier for most to handle, but that hasn't been my experience. Salvia was much easier for me to breakthrough with. I guess it's all a matter of personal preference and how it effects you personally. Salvia does seem to have a more familiar quality to it. DMT can be very alien and bizarre, whereas Salvia can feel like coming home, like you've been there before but have just forgotten.

 

[gibran2]

First off, welcome to the forum!

This question gets asked from time to time, and I never get tired of providing my two cents worth. I’ll just list similarities and differences (in no particular order) as I’ve personally observed/experienced them over the last few years:

As you know, salvia is much more potent than DMT – a breakthrough dose of salvinorin A is about 1mg, whereas a breakthrough dose of DMT is about 25-35mg.

The onset of salvia is delayed – first effects aren’t felt until about 30 seconds after a dose is smoked. I like this, because it allows me to “get ready” before I feel any effects. DMT effects are felt much sooner – I often begin to feel effects while I’m still inhaling a dose. Once the effects are felt, I’d say they both ramp up at about the same rate, i.e. very quickly.

The initial effects of salvia are often very physical/spatial – the transition to breakthrough often involves a twisting and folding of space itself and me with it. The initial effects of DMT are more like a “rush” or a feeling of extreme lightheadedness, sometimes a feeling of vibration in the face or throughout the body, and intensely beautiful visual patterns. I find the transition to breakthrough with salvia to be more “gentle” than with DMT.

Salvia is much more dissociative than DMT. Even at moderate doses of salvia, I often forget that I took it, I have no memories of my life or personal identity, no memories of life on Earth at all. With DMT, my memories and sense of self are generally intact, but not always. With salvia, very strange things can be happening, and it doesn’t occur to me that they’re strange. With DMT, my awareness and cognitive abilities are usually quite intact.

Just as the transition to breakthrough with salvia is more physical, so is the breakthrough itself. With salvia, I have vividly felt my body morph into a wide variety of objects (almost always mundane inanimate objects – a broom, a tent, a wheel of a child’s toy, etc.) I have felt myself quite vividly and convincingly move through “rips” or “tears” in space – I can even feel the edges of the rip as they move past me. Although I’ve had physical/tactile sensations during DMT experiences, these aren’t a common or defining feature.

With salvia, my emotional state is usually flat. No extremes. (Based on reports I’ve read, this isn’t typical.) I’ve never felt extreme fear with salvia, nor have I felt extreme euphoria, joy, love, etc. DMT is quite the opposite – I’ve felt a wide range of (mostly positive) emotions during DMT experiences: Profound joy, love, reverence, gratitude. And occasionally, existential fear.

The salvia realm is often a realm of familiar objects and entities: People, houses, grassy fields, streets, cars and other vehicles, etc. The people sometimes take the form of close relatives: brothers and sisters in particular. Although very strange things can happen in the salvia realm, the realm itself is familiar. There’s often a feeling of being “home”. For me, the DMT realm is totally alien. I have never experienced a human or anything that even resembles a humanoid in the DMT realm. No houses, no trees, nothing at all familiar. The DMT realm is a realm literally beyond imagination – I find it hard to believe that the DMT realm is a creation of my mind.

The salvia realm gives me a strong sense of “parallel worlds”. It’s as if there are parallel universes – physically only fractions of a millimeter away from our own. These parallel worlds often seem very similar to our own. The DMT realm is a realm beyond the physical. The DMT realm seems to be an “eternal immaterial realm” that lies beyond life, beyond death – beyond human comprehension.

DMT experiences, especially when combined with harmalas, are easier to remember than salvia experiences. (Not that deep experiences of either type are easy to remember.)

The duration of both types of experience are about the same – anywhere from 5-15 minutes, depending on dose and other factors.

DMT visuals are brighter and more vivid than salvia visuals. This isn’t to say that salvia visuals aren’t bright and vivid.

Salvia experiences are much more cryptic than DMT experiences. I’ve long ago given up trying to figure out what they mean. DMT experiences seem to make more sense (whether they actually do or not is anyone’s guess).

With harmalas in particular, DMT experiences are more spiritual than salvia experiences. In fact, I’d have to think hard to recall a salvia experience that I would consider spiritual. (In one sense, I find all of these experiences to be kinds of spiritual exploration, but I’m referring more to a “feeling” of spirituality.)

I tend to think that salvia experiences arise from my mind and that DMT experiences arise from “elsewhere” (whatever that means).