Research DMT salts for e-juice

[Ruffles]

20% w/v sounds about right. Remember this was a 70-30 VG-PG. Feels like there are many details on the vaping scheme to make this optimal, it didn`t really feel that all of the 20% went into the clouds on the first puffs as dripping more liquid in the dried cotton-filament continued giving the DMT taste. This atomizer is restrictive and small, I have another that is the opposite and makes huge clouds, will give it a try next time.

Also very interested in the vapehuasca concept and should try comboing with harmalas.

 

[Loveall]

A tank I like to use is the geekzape Zeus max or nano tanks. Agree, you want to aerosolize a bunch. Pushing the DMT salt up to 33% weight could also help (e.g 1g of DMT fumarate dissolved in 2g of plain 70:30 e-juice).

I make my mixes over a scale for convenience and never deal with volumes. Should be roughly the same within 10% (further from the same the more VG is used).

I think you will find the color of the DMT fumarate doesn't change with time. FB DMT in e-juice becomes a dark red and I don't enjoy that as much (not doing FB in e-juice anymore).

I'm struggling to add harmalas. Need help there. Maybe a water/VG solution using acetates. IDK, would be a great group project if folks are willing to sacrifice time and materials for learning.

 

[Ruffles]

I think you will find the color of the DMT fumarate doesn't change with time. FB DMT in e-juice becomes a dark red and I don't enjoy that as much (not doing FB in e-juice anymore).

I'm struggling to add harmalas. Need help there. Maybe a water/VG solution using acetates. IDK, would be a great group project if folks are willing to sacrifice time and materials for learning.

Yes, FB in e-juice turns yellow-orange-red as concentration increases. I kind of like that it gives a visual gauge on concentration. After some reflection I kind of preferred the taste and feel of the freebase than the fumarate salt though, but I also consider that I have been clouded by some irrational fear of dying by fumarate ingestion which is total nonsense.

About the freebase harmala e-liquid deal, it`s been on my mind, here`s my take on it: my impression is that when you mix harmalas and fumarate Ds the harmalas turn to salt due to excess fumarate perhaps or fumarates double binding to harmala + DMT??? Who knows? So my suggestion would be to mix the salty D and the freebasey H in a tiny amount of water, dry that and dissolve them in VG after that, you could always check the magical-electronic-liquid with a UV light. That`s what I`m going for next time.

I`m also trying to figure out how to make my atomizer spurt larger droplets instead of fine mist, changing the coils or mod configurations?? The actual question is: does aerosol droplet size differentially holds more or less actives?

 

[Loveall]

I meant the FB changes color with time and gets darker. Haven't seen that with DMT salt which I think is a plus.

 

[Gaizkin]

I went ahead and tried this (made citric salt e-juice).

Ended up vaping for 6 hours or so. It was amazing. 171 hits to trough most of the 1g FB I had mixed into an e-juice using the ratios in the first post (except I used 25% less citric acid). I'm guessing ~ 5mg/hit. I may try without VG so it flows better, the cotton wick is becoming slightly toasty (tube RTA desgin).

Is this too much DMT? I simply enjoy being in the DMT space and gently vape every few minutes to swim in there. It's been good for me I believe (more relaxed/mindful later, little life things not feeling so pressing). The beauty of it is why I wanna stay.

I plan to add harmalas next (sublingual). Won't need to vape as much to stay in the space.

Cheers to all

 

[some one]

I see, good points. Well, great to hear that citric works.
As for dmt-fumerate, there is only one thing to do: to try it out.
I will give it a go when I have the chance and share results.
If fumerate works we can use FASA to create a smokeable product.

Great, looking forward to your results

Wauw and the results are in thanks to Ruffles :thumb_up: :thumb_up:
Excellent work, happy to finally find out that vaping DMT fumerate actually works!
The mellowy feeling sound familiar when I tried to nebulize it (which only gave weak effects).

Tip: you can convert freebase DMT to DMT fumerate using FASA:

Step 1 - dissolve 1g freebase DMT in 10ml anhydrous acetone
Step 2 - filter with a small bit of cotton in a funnel, discard dirty cotton wick
Step 3 - add 600mg Fumaric acid to 100ml anhydrous acetone (FASA) and make sure all dissolves
Step 4 - add 50ml FASA to the DMT Acetone solution, wait for the clouding to settle
Step 5 - add additional FASA dropwise until no more clouding forms
Step 6 - separate the solids (DMT-Fumerate) by decanting, discard all liquid
Step 7 - wash the DMT-Fumerate with fresh anhydrous acetone (dissolves excess Fumaric acid)
Step 8 - filter the DMT-Fumerate and dry at room temperature

Doing FASA on freebase DMT will clean it from remaining plant oils etc. These are left dissolved in the acetone which gets discarded. If the DMT is more pure, it means that the ejuice could be less viscous, which could result in better inhalations and less chance of blocked wicks. But as Loveall mentions, adding acid to ejuice + fb is also fine. The easiest is a FASA extraction from the get-go.

Ended up vaping for 6 hours or so. It was amazing. 171 hits to trough most of the 1g.
I simply enjoy being in the DMT space and gently vape every few minutes to swim in there.

I have yet to try this out, but it sounds like a great way to potentiate multiple lower doses for an extended period for time!

As for ratios..

I think I will try 50:50 or 60:40 VG/PG instead of 70:30. Less VG = less thick liquid = more air flow = more efficient / effective vaping. But more PG will make the ejuice harsher / more throat hit. 33% DMT per weight as Loveall mentions sounds good. I'd go 1/4 min and 1/3 max. Make sure to have sufficient PG to dissolve it in. Ps. For DTL (direct to lung) sub ohm vaping it is recommended to use at least 50% VG in the VG/PG ratio (up to 70%) and keep the air holes fully open.

The final part of this experiment is for someone to try a full dose :d

 

[some one]

Update:

I bought the Geekvape Z50 Kit with a Z Nano tank and a 0.3 ohm KA1 coil.

Did some testing..

I tried to dissolve dmt fumerate in ejuice..
Result: It didn't dissolve at a 1: 4 ratio in neither 50:50 or 70:30 VG/PG.
Not sure why, other plant material present?

Inserted and vaped the 50:50 ejuice (without dmt) at 30W..
Result: vapor much too harsh, couldn't hold power for more than a second.

Inserted and vaped the 70:30 ejuice (without dmt) at 30-36W..
Result: dense clouds, mild on lungs, easily inhaled for several seconds.

Update: I heated the ejuice dmt fum mix and kept steering. much of it dissolved. placed it in tank. most crashed out due to cold temp. removed it and added fresh juice w/o dmt. inhaled. the wick was still fully soaked the dmt mix and I felt effect. Took long to come up as Ruffles mentioned. I experienced mild effects as well. But could be that the inhaled dmt concentration was low, as I added fresh ejuice without dmt and only smoked what was soaked in the wick.

Next:

Citric acid with 70:30 ejuice and 1:4 dmt.

 

[some one]

Update:

I got two bottles of PG and VG (both 100% pure without additives) and made a 50:50 mix without DMT.
Inserted the ejuice mix in the same vape (see post above). It tasted great. Not harsh at all.
The harsh taste issue in my previous post is probably due to an ejuice brand specific problem.
As the 70:30 and 50:50 ejuices were from two different brands.

I tested the pure 50:50 ejuice mix in a Geek Vape Z Max tank with a 0.2 ohm M-serie Kanthal triple mesh-coil (rated 70-85W).
Placed on a Geek Vape Aegis 100W modbox it worked great at 35W. At 80W the vapor got hotter so I had to pulse shorter.

Conclusion:

If you vape with a very low ohm atomizer at its upper W range then 50:50 is probably too much PG.
However, running a 0.2-0.4 ohm coil in the 30-40W range with 50:50 VG/PG ejuice works perfectly fine.
I'm sure you could increase the PG ratio further to be able to dissolve more DMT as Loveall did.

Next:

Try to dissolve the same DMT fumerate in the pure 50:50 mix.
Test with a higher PG ratio and add DMT to that.

 

[Loveall]

I did a test starting with DMT fumerate xtals. It was difficult for me to dissolve it all at room temp.

Using free base first and then neutralizing with funaric seems more soluble. Not sure why. Maybe the dry salt form matters, we assume it is two DMT molecules and one fumaric acid molecule, but what if people get different salts depending on how they salt the solvent?

Gonna repeat the free base first, then neutralize with funaric again to confirm that is very soluble.

For nicotine it is my understanding that 10% of the nicotine remains in free base form at neutral pH. Some nicotine "salts" are formulated this way.

Anyway, dissolving a dry salt may not be equivalent to dissolving the free base and then bringing down the pH with an organic salt to physiological levels.

An extra test could be to check the pH for those starting with salt xtals. Is it neutral when it all dissolves? Slightly acidic when not dissolving well? pH may affect solubility.

 

[some one]

You are right, DMT fumerate seems hard to dissolve in ejuce, but with heat it works.
I agree though that going freebase and adding acid later could be wise, also pH wise.
What if some fumaric acid residue is left on DMT fumerate after discarding the FASA?

Continuing my experiment..
I successfully dissolved 200mg DMT fumerate into 1200mg of 100% pure 50:50 PG/PG ejuice.
This means that my previous failure was due to ejuice brand additives.
However, I just made it and will need to wait a day to make sure it doesn't slowly crash out again.

Procedure:
I placed 200mg DMT fumerate in a container and added 1000 mg of 50:50 PG/VG.
At first the DMT didn't dissolve, so I used a warm water bath which dissolved almost all.
I then added an additional 200 mg of 50:50 PG/VG, using heat this pretty much dissolved it all.

Ratio's:
200 mg DMT fumerate.
Around 1200 mg PG/PG (mixed 1:1 by weight, not volume).
This measured around 1 ml total volume incl. the dissolved DMT.

Vape setting:
Geekvape Z Nano tank with a 0.3 ohm KA1 coil on the Geekvape Z50 modbox @ 33W with the air vent fully open.

Result:
Tried vaping a few small puffs (not the right time to try a larger dose). I felt effects and the taste was good!

 

[some one]

Update:
I puffed some lager hits some time after my post above. Effects were felt. However, afterwards I felt a discomfort in my lungs. Placebo is always a factor, but I'm worrying about fumaric acid residue. Also, the DMT started crystalizing out. Not sure if this is just due to time, or due to the ejuice getting sucked through the wick better than the DMT. Raising the DMT concentration above saturation point.

Conclusion:
Adding DMT fumerate straight to ejuice doesn't work as well as hoped. Interested to see the results of your experiment Loveall with adding the fumatic acid afterwards. But if DMT fumerate can't be used and acid needs to be added I don't see the benefit over using citric acid as you mentioned originally.

Next:
Dissolve freebase DMT in PG/VG with citric acid added afterwards.
Loveall your ratio of 1 part PG to 0.3 part VG, no problems taking that much PG in with a low ohm coil?
As in not too hot / harsh throat hit? The rule of thumb seems to be to raise VG for powerful coils.

 

[Loveall]

Update:
I puffed some lager hits some time after my post above. Effects were felt. However, afterwards I felt a discomfort in my lungs. Placebo is always a factor, but I'm worrying about fumaric acid residue. Also, the DMT started crystalizing out. Not sure if this is just due to time, or due to the ejuice getting sucked through the wick better than the DMT. Raising the DMT concentration above saturation point.

Conclusion:
Adding DMT fumerate straight to ejuice doesn't work as well as hoped. Interested to see the results of your experiment Loveall with adding the fumatic acid afterwards. But if DMT fumerate can't be used and acid needs to be added I don't see the benefit over using citric acid as you mentioned originally.

Next:
Dissolve freebase DMT in PG/VG with citric acid added afterwards.
Loveall your ratio of 1 part PG to 0.3 part VG, no problems taking that much PG in with a low ohm coil?
As in not too hot / harsh throat hit? The rule of thumb seems to be to raise VG for powerful coils.

No issues noted with that higher PG/VG ratio

 

[Loveall]

I've done more tests with the dmt fumarate.

Converted FB to salt, this added ~0.6x of mass (3g of free base to 4.8g of DMT fumarate). I rinsed it a few times with acetone too. So I got the mono-dmt salt this way. My conversion was:

- Dissolve DMT FB in acetone
- Dissolve solid fumaric acid until slightly acidic. I added x0.3 first, but that did not nuetralize the acetone so kept an adding and clouding until it did.
- Washed the resulting salt multiple times with fresh acetone.

This salt (presumably monoDMT fumarate based on the mass recovered) does not dissolve as well in PG as mentioned before. If someone makes the diDMT fumarate salt (ruffles?) result could be different.

When dissolving the FB in PG first, only 0.3x of fumaric mass are needed to neutralize experimentally. The dissoled formed is the diDMT fumarate.

So it could be possible to directly make a soluble product if the diDMT fumarate salt is used to begin with. Not sure which salt FASA makes, but the wiki claims it is the diDMT fumarate. A water step may be needed to really get this salt.

It is also possible that when starting with momoDMT fumarate what xtalizes out of the PG after cooling is excess fumaric acid (some/most of the extra 0.3x fraction if fumaric acid solubility in PG is low which is testable) while a diDMT fumerate form remains in solution. Resting and decanting before adding to the vape could do the trick.

I could be wrong, but this is what I'm getting experimentally so far. Cheers.

 

[some one]

Thanks for sharing the data and thoughts!

So we underestimated the mo/di aspect. This could explain it. Seems tricky to get di to start off with using FASA it seems then. In my opinion not worth the hassle. Best is to dissolve the freebase in PG and add acid until neutral pH as you mentioned previously. When you did this with fumaric acid, no xtals occurred as time went by right?

I will reduce the VG ratio to 75:25 PG/VG and dissolve 1 unit (weight) of DMT per 2.0 units (weight) of PG and add 0.3 units of weight of acid (fumaric /citric) and aim for neutral pH with strip. Wonder is there is a difference in effect between adding citric vs fumaric acid..

 

[Loveall]

Thanks for sharing the data and thoughts!

So we underestimated the mo/di aspect. This could explain it. Seems tricky to get di to start off with using FASA it seems then. In my opinion not worth the hassle. Best is to dissolve the freebase in PG and add acid until neutral pH as you mentioned previously. When you did this with fumaric acid, no xtals occurred as time went by right?

I will reduce the VG ratio to 75:25 PG/VG and dissolve 1 unit (weight) of DMT per 2.0 units (weight) of PG and add 0.3 units of weight of acid (fumaric /citric) and aim for neutral pH with strip. Wonder is there is a difference in effect between adding citric vs fumaric acid..

Yes, when I neutralized FB with funaric no xtals formed.

I tested fumaric xtals a little more. Noticed that they dissolved in pure PG (1:3 mass ratio DMT to PG). Stayed dissolved for a while (a few hours) and seemed stable. Then after VG (30%) the solution clouded immediately and xtals began to form shortly after. So... if one is OK with pure PG, fumaric xtals may be an option. I will test this further.

Want to look at benzoic xtals again with PG only. Clean DMT benzoate is very easy to get because they crash so nicely from limonene with benzoic acid power.

Agree with you that clogging can be an issue, so the benefit of super clean dmt salts is there. FB without extra work is not always that clean unfortunately (at least for me).

 

[Loveall]

Tested DMT benzoate in PG. Doesn't work even down to 1:4 ratio. This is too bad because DMT benzoate xtalizes very well/clean from a raw limo extraction by simply adding benzoic acid powder. This combo would have been a dream in simplicity.

Tested DMT fumarate again. It does dissolve in PG. This time I had a few tiny granules not dissolve. After putting them in water it became clear they where excess fumaric. So good news is that PG dissolves DMT fumarate but not fumaric acid. It was easy to decant before adding to the vape.

Edit/summary: as a reminder DMT fumarate crashes from PG once small amounts of VG are added. Starting from DMT fumarate xtals 100% PG liquid does work. Neutralizing free base DMT with fumaric seems to stay in solution even for a PG/VG mix. Perhaps less fumaric acid for the salt vs neutralizing helps solubility when VG is present. Also, the kind of DMT fumarate salt may matter: diDMT fumarate may be soluble in PG/VG while monoDMT fumarate may not be.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Also, the kind of DMT fumarate salt may matter: diDMT fumarate may not be soluble in PG/VG while monoDMT fumarate may not be.

Clarification requested for this typo! Just which form is the soluble one?
Seems it's the one with the lower ratio of fumaric?

The dissol[v]ed formed is the diDMT fumarate

Above

 

[Loveall]

Also, the kind of DMT fumarate salt may matter: diDMT fumarate may not be soluble in PG/VG while monoDMT fumarate may not be.

Clarification requested for this typo! Just which form is the soluble one?
Seems it's the one with the lower ratio of fumaric?

The dissol[v]ed formed is the diDMT fumarate

Above

Great catch. That was an important typo. Yes, the diDMT fumarate may be more soluble in PG/VG (corrected). That would explain why when neutralizing FB things stay on solution. It could also explain the other results where the salt was soluble for one worker but not another if different salt forms can be assumed.

 

[Ruffles]

Update:
However, afterwards I felt a discomfort in my lungs. Placebo is always a factor, but I'm worrying about fumaric acid residue.

Felt some discomfort after vaping higher concentrations of FumaricD in 70:30 VG-PG, however, it is not consistent, meaning that there were many times that the vaping did not give me any discomfort at all. Fear of the unknown of what fumaric does in the lungs is definitely a factor here, so can`t really distinguish between psychological or physical discomfort. Plus, there`s always a harmala combo involved which gives a body load anyways.

Vaped freebaseD (in VG-PG) smells and tastes much more `DMTish` than fumaricD: very strange. Perhaps vaping freebase gets both aerosol and vaporization by heat of the compounds, while fumaric only goes out as aerosols, therefore aerosolization is fundamental for it to work. Even if you overload concentration in e-juice if your aerosol is not good enough for this purpose you are just losing material to the coil.

Still believe that the optimum way to vape fumaricD requires lots of experimentations: aerosol production setups, temperature and coil types, VG-PG concentrations, hell, even mentholated e-liquid might increase absorption.

 

[Loveall]

Some updates:

- DMT citrate salt is stable for months
- Must sart with very clean DMT freebase. Any gunk can clog the coil over time. This is a drawback for this method, flame or e-mesh are more forgiving for sloppier extractions. Gunky DMT is OK too, just be ready to replace the coils more frequently (which wastes DMT and can be inconvenient during a long sublingual harmala session).
- As a reminder, a working ratio by mass is: DMT:Citric Acid (using monohydrate from Milliard's): PG:VG 1:0.35:2:0.6. Note: Edited citric acid to a lower concentration for better flavor.
- 1g of DMT makes about 3ml of e-juice
- Edit: A vape/coil with 70W+ is good (e.g. Geekvape zeus max tank with quad coil)
Cheers