Research DMT salts for e-juice

[downwardsfromzero]

Glad to hear the IPA re-x works nicely. I've not specifically heard of IPA re-x of the citrate honey so you might be better off sticking with what already works - unless you want to try re-xing the citrate yourself.


Based on the reports in this thread, the citrate does seem to be the more favorable choice for e-juice though.

 

[Ruffles]

Very interested in converting fumaricdmt to citric dmt for vaping purposes. Fumaricdmt is vape able but not as pleasant as freebase. will need to acid base and CASA it. But needs to be completely clear of nasty nonpolar solvent residue, therefore re-x in IPA, perhaps. Xylene taste and smell are absolutely horrible. IPA derived crystals are acceptable.

 

[A Single Step]

Some updates:

- DMT citrate salt is stable for months
- Must sart with very clean DMT freebase. Any gunk can clog the coil over time. This is a drawback for this method, flame or e-mesh are more forgiving for sloppier extractions. Gunky DMT is OK too, just be ready to replace the coils more frequently (which wastes DMT and can be inconvenient during a long sublingual harmala session).
- As a reminder, a working ratio by mass is: DMT:Citric Acid (using monohydrate from Milliard's): PG:VG 1:0.45:2:0.6. Note: increased citric slightly up from 0.4, with very pure DMT more citric is needed to get to neutral pH.
- 1g of DMT makes about 3ml of e-juice

Cheers

Ok, so this was effective but too sour. Too much citric
Gonna lower the recomendation to 0.4 parts citric or less. Perhaps 0.33 is better for flavor too.

In other news, I tried DMT acetate. It is beyond soluble, I would say miscible? The DMT acetate was an oil. Tasted fine/smooth. Also acetic acid doesn't break down until 400C+, so it could be cleaner for unwanted byproducts (?).

I wanna try harmala acetate too. If it is a miscible oil or at least soluble we could make vapable ayahusaca salt. Tried a lot of harmala salts amd failed, hopefully this ks the one that works.

Also, I moved to a new vape. I really enjoy it: geekvape wenax h1, 0.7 ohms at the high power setting (green color).

With regard to these proportions: for vaping in a sub-ohm atomizer, is there any advantage to reducing the relative amount of PG/VG for a stronger juice, if your intent is one-hit break-through? Is there any disadvantages, such as reduced shelf stability? Or citrate coming out of solution with the PG/VG?

 

[Here&Now]

What if your starting substance is DMT HCL? Would hydrochloride not be safe for use in e-juice the way citrate and fumarate likely are?

 

[Transform]

What if your starting substance is DMT HCL? Would hydrochloride not be safe for use in e-juice the way citrate and fumarate likely are?

Are you saying you have DMT.HCl? It's incredibly hygroscopic so I can only presume you'd have it as a solution. Given that e-juice 'vaping' is actually thermal atomisation/nebulisation, if it were possible to produce a stable solution or dispersion of (suitably pure) DMT.HCl in the e-juice it should in principle be toxicologically safe. With sufficient knowledge and/or ingenuity there's no reason why this couldn't be done.

 

[Here&Now]

Are you saying you have DMT.HCl? It's incredibly hygroscopic so I can only presume you'd have it as a solution. Given that e-juice 'vaping' is actually thermal atomisation/nebulisation, if it were possible to produce a stable solution or dispersion of (suitably pure) DMT.HCl in the e-juice it should in principle be toxicologically safe. With sufficient knowledge and/or ingenuity there's no reason why this couldn't be done.

Very interesting, thank you for the detailed response. Good to know the use of HCL in e-juice shouldn't necessarily increase the health risk.

What I'm working with is actually 5-MeO-DMT HCL, but I didn't want to complicate the conversation by throwing a curveball since the topic has centered around DMT. I didn't realize DMT HCL is practically forced into a liquid state, so I guess I got caught in a partial lie lol. My apologies.

 

[Loveall]

If it dissolves in e-juice it will work.

It's nice that we can use salts in vapes. Guess its one decent thing the otherwise horrible, legal, deadly, addictive nicotine industry taught us. Thank you juul

 

[The Traveler]

Today I did the following:

1. I took out my old stash of DMT-fumarate (it did seem that after 10 years of storage at room temperature it did turn slightly more yellow!).
   
   
   
2. I took one (1) gram of the DMT-fumarate and dissolved it slowly in 5ml of PG with a heater (set at 70C+):
   
   
   
   
   In the end 100% of the DMT-fumarate dissolved and when cooled down nothing dropped out.
   
   
3. I then tested the pH of the end result:
   
   Pretty neutral around pH of 7.
   
   
4. Then I added 30mg of Menthol crystals for taste.
   
   
5. And 2ml of VG to make it more liquid.
   
   
6. So I ended up with a mixture of DMT : PG : VG => 1 : 5 : 2
   
   
7. I then poured it into my Geekvape Nano Z 2 tank, and I feel that with this I have a backup for today's SHE.
   
   

I hope you enjoyed this ride as much as I did.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[The Traveler]

So I tried this e-liquid I made for the SHE today.

My first findings:

1. I am pretty amazed at how good it works!
2. The come up feels almost instantly and just a few puffs will get you into DMT space.
3. It's very easy on the lungs, with slow puffs it was easy to keep in the vapor, no harsh feelings on the lungs and no coughing reflex for me.
4. The biggest drawback is the bitter taste of the DMT-fumarate that will linger in your mouth for a while after the menthol wears off. Eating something afterwards mitigated this taste.

Overal I have to see how my lungs will perform in the coming time after this experience, if they keep performing normally then I think I can call this a big success.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[_Trip_]

This is one reason I like the idea of dmt lactate as lactic acid is produced by nearly every part of the body in particular the muscular skeleton system and red blood cells. Making it a safe bet for the lungs.

In addition harmala lactate is also soluble in vape juice making the salt form compatible with harmala and dmt together.

 

[Mindfullness]

Today I did the following:

1. I took out my old stash of DMT-fumarate (it did seem that after 10 years of storage at room temperature it did turn slightly more yellow!).
   View attachment 96638
   
   
2. I took one (1) gram of the DMT-fumarate and dissolved it slowly in 5ml of PG with a heater (set at 70C+):
   View attachment 96639
   View attachment 96640
   View attachment 96641
   View attachment 96642
   In the end 100% of the DMT-fumarate dissolved and when cooled down nothing dropped out.
   
   
3. I then tested the pH of the end result:
   View attachment 96643
   Pretty neutral around pH of 7.
   
   
4. Then I added 30mg of Menthol crystals for taste.
   
   
5. And 2ml of VG to make it more liquid.
   
   
6. So I ended up with a mixture of DMT : PG : VG => 1:5:2
   
   
7. I then poured it into my Geekvape Nano Z 2 tank, and I feel that with this I have a backup for today's SHE.
   
   View attachment 96644

I hope you enjoyed this ride as much as I did.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

What settings(wattage) did you run? I only had a 13w vape thinking it would be enough, I got a Glowy(LSD) vibe and when i closed my eyes the visurals were quite nice but not mind blowing

 

[The Traveler]

What settings(wattage) did you run? I only had a 13w vape thinking it would be enough, I got a Glowy(LSD) vibe and when i closed my eyes the visurals were quite nice but not mind blowing

Ah yes, forgot to provide those details while I put great care into documenting those to provide them here.

I used a 0.3 Ohm coil and set the wattage to 25W. Vape came out fast and puffs were from 1 to 3 seconds with the air vents fully open.

With a few puffs I was right back in DMT space.



Also for best practice: always keep the e-liquid level above the cotton to prevent burning!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Mindfullness]

Ah yes, forgot to provide those details while I put great care into documenting those to provide them here.

I used a 0.3 Ohm coil and set the wattage to 25W. Vape came out fast and puffs were from 1 to 3 seconds with the air vents fully open.

With a few puffs I was right back in DMT space.

View attachment 96654

Also for best practice: always keep the e-liquid level above the cotton to prevent burning!


Kind regards,

The Traveler

Thank you for the update i loved the details on your first comment, the Vape juice i had must not of been very strong, it was enjoyable but not into the Dmt space as you say. ill have to buy a better vape and vape hirer wattage with a strong juice i make not find

 

[The Traveler]

the Vape juice i had must not of been very strong, it was enjoyable but not into the Dmt space as you say.

I was really surprised at how fast it hit, the come up felt faster than the DMT freebase I took with the GVG about 15 minutes before.

I never expected it to work this well, so besides the way to mitigate the aftertaste, I'm only still curious and very cautious about the effects of DMT-fumarate on the lungs.

I have a smartwatch with an SpO2 meter that checks for the amount of oxygen supply in my blood and up to now there was no noticeable difference from my normal pattern.




Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Loveall]

Hey Traveler,

I think the citrate salt has a great taste if you want to try that one day.

Nicotine salts hit very well in ejuice and are considerered stronger than free base nicotine in ejuice. Maybe it has to do with the good water solubility of the salt helping it to he absorbed when aerosolized in e-juice. IDK. Regardless, your results make sense and are consistent with my experience (with citrate mostly).

Edit: I never had an issue with lungs. Essentially, we are just inhaling an aerosol that is fully water soluble near physiological pH. Interested in how you feel though.

Thanks for reporting novel results on DMT fumarate

 

[Here&Now]

It's my experience as well that fumarate in e-juice tastes quite nasty. This has me wondering about my earlier question regarding the use of HCL. As it's considered a strong acid, should I expect the final product PH to be way off from what would be comfortable? Is an HCL juice mix likely to be harsh and undesirable compared to the use of citrate?

 

[The Traveler]

This is one reason I like the idea of dmt lactate as lactic acid is produced by nearly every part of the body in particular the muscular skeleton system and red blood cells. Making it a safe bet for the lungs.

In addition harmala lactate is also soluble in vape juice making the salt form compatible with harmala and dmt together.

Just did some quick prompting :

Q: Can you first dissolve the DMT-freebase into PG and then add the appropriate amount of lactic acid?

A: Yes, you can first dissolve DMT freebase into propylene glycol (PG) and then add the appropriate amount of lactic acid to convert the DMT into its lactate form. This process involves several steps:

1. Dissolving DMT Freebase in PG: DMT freebase is not very soluble in water but is soluble in organic solvents, including propylene glycol. You would start by dissolving the DMT freebase in PG at a moderate temperature to help increase its solubility. The amount of PG used would depend on the desired concentration of DMT in the solution.
2. Adding Lactic Acid: After the DMT is fully dissolved in PG, you would slowly add lactic acid to the solution. The amount of lactic acid needed should be based on the stoichiometric ratio calculated previously (approximately 0.478 grams of lactic acid for every gram of DMT). This ratio ensures that each molecule of DMT reacts with a molecule of lactic acid to form DMT-lactate.
3. Adjusting pH: The reaction between DMT freebase and lactic acid will produce DMT-lactate and water. It might be necessary to monitor and adjust the pH of the solution to ensure complete conversion of DMT freebase into DMT-lactate. The target pH would depend on the pKa of DMT and the desired final form of the product. Typically, a slightly acidic to neutral pH is aimed for, but it's essential to avoid too acidic conditions that might degrade DMT.
4. Observing the Reaction: The process should be observed for signs of complete reaction, such as the dissolution of all solid particles and the stabilization of the solution's pH. Heating the mixture gently might help the reaction, but care should be taken not to overheat, as high temperatures could degrade sensitive compounds.
5. Final Adjustments: Once the reaction is complete, the solution might need to be diluted or further adjusted to reach the desired final concentration of DMT-lactate in PG.

This method allows for the preparation of a water-soluble form of DMT, potentially improving its bioavailability and ease of use for certain applications.


All according to our AI oracle. So if there are any knowledgeable people out there on this subject, are you willing to please doublecheck this answer?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[_Trip_]

Just did some quick prompting :

Q: Can you first dissolve the DMT-freebase into PG and then add the appropriate amount of lactic acid?

A: Yes, you can first dissolve DMT freebase into propylene glycol (PG) and then add the appropriate amount of lactic acid to convert the DMT into its lactate form. This process involves several steps:

1. Dissolving DMT Freebase in PG: DMT freebase is not very soluble in water but is soluble in organic solvents, including propylene glycol. You would start by dissolving the DMT freebase in PG at a moderate temperature to help increase its solubility. The amount of PG used would depend on the desired concentration of DMT in the solution.
2. Adding Lactic Acid: After the DMT is fully dissolved in PG, you would slowly add lactic acid to the solution. The amount of lactic acid needed should be based on the stoichiometric ratio calculated previously (approximately 0.478 grams of lactic acid for every gram of DMT). This ratio ensures that each molecule of DMT reacts with a molecule of lactic acid to form DMT-lactate.
3. Adjusting pH: The reaction between DMT freebase and lactic acid will produce DMT-lactate and water. It might be necessary to monitor and adjust the pH of the solution to ensure complete conversion of DMT freebase into DMT-lactate. The target pH would depend on the pKa of DMT and the desired final form of the product. Typically, a slightly acidic to neutral pH is aimed for, but it's essential to avoid too acidic conditions that might degrade DMT.
4. Observing the Reaction: The process should be observed for signs of complete reaction, such as the dissolution of all solid particles and the stabilization of the solution's pH. Heating the mixture gently might help the reaction, but care should be taken not to overheat, as high temperatures could degrade sensitive compounds.
5. Final Adjustments: Once the reaction is complete, the solution might need to be diluted or further adjusted to reach the desired final concentration of DMT-lactate in PG.

This method allows for the preparation of a water-soluble form of DMT, potentially improving its bioavailability and ease of use for certain applications.


All according to our AI oracle. So if there are any knowledgeable people out there on this subject, are you willing to please doublecheck this answer?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

That's the gist of it, yeah. Add the dmt, lactic acid and pg/vg together and mix until dissolved. I think I used 1 to 1 ratio dmt to lactic acid iirc. Unsure if the ratios th AI gave are right but they very well might be.
You can also add fb harmala to that mix.

1.5: 3 (harmala to dmt). I only experimented with it a couple times though Trav, never dialed it in. But the lactate salts were quite soluble and remaind soluble even after weeks of storage (no crystalisation).

 

[Loveall]

You can mix it all at once, no need to slow or dissolve the DMT first.

 

[The Traveler]

I ordered lactic acid 80% and silica dessicants, this since 80% lactic acid with 20% water seems to be the norm for the normal humans in NL.

In two days we will see!


Kind regards,

The Traveler