Do you forgive the government ?

[Orion]

I'm just interested. Everyone here surely has their take on this seemingly never ending 'war'.

Do you forgive them for their drug laws ?

Are they evil? Are they just wrong? Do they believe themselves? Do you believe their sincerity or is it a deliberate attempt to screw you ?

What do YOU personally believe ?

No breaking down other peoples opinions, no peddling of conspiracies, your honest personal take on it.

Is it forgivable human nature ?

 

[Mr.Peabody]

I think the government is a reflection of the people. It was designed to be run by interested citizens, and as such, the only ones to blame for the screwed up state it is in are the people.

Our government was created with the notion that positions of power attract evil people. Good people are attracted, too, but it seems more bad than good find their way there. So, the governed mass more or less makes a deal with the devil when electing officials. This is why I am always skeptical of anyone in power, popular or not, my views or not. I just don't know them, and there is no way to truly know their character.

Finally, it should be expected that a government will do wrong things, such as subvert the will of the people, trample rights, etc. Mistakes are forgivable, as they'll always happen. An uncorrected mistake is not forgivable. The drug war is a good example, and if the two states legalizing cannabis is any indication, this heinous mistake is on a path towards correction. Of course, it's got a looong way to go!

 

[jbark]

I've been wanting to say this for a long time, but the opportunity never presented itself, and it kind of needs to for me to put forth such a controversial idea - at least controversial in these parts.

This is likely to be highly unpopular, but please try and overcome the kneejerk reaction and see the sense behind it:

Aren't we actually really lucky in most parts of the west with regards to drug laws? We are wont to complain and rail against the MAN and the powers that be, when in fact we really have our cake - and eat it too. Here at the nexus we espouse zero tolerance for selling dimethyltryptamine, yet eschew and renounce the powers that enforce that very intolerance. Drug laws in most western countries are so lax, or unenforced, that it is extremely rare (relative to usage) that anyone is ever actually prosecuted. It is the trafficking that is targeted, and even then, generally only large transgressors who are involved in a host of other crimes. I know it's far from perfect and I am well aware of - and in agreement with - the arguments that prohibition creates crime and a filthy black market underbelly, but has anyone that espouses it truly thought through the full ramifications of total legalization of ALL drugs, indiscriminately? I need surely not outline all the pitfalls to such an enlightened audience, but suffice to say that I believe we would be MUCH worse off.

Prohibition is awful, but the alternative is, I believe far more terrible.

And even with the crackdown on MHRB, there are many other sources, as we know, and we are relatively free to gather, discuss, experiment and share on the nexus and in real life. No one I know, or no one they know, has ever been busted for personal use, and the spatterings of busts in the news seem horrific, but in context most are dealers or suspected dealers, and represent such a tiny percentage of actual users as to be pretty much negligible. You may know some who have been busted, but run the numbers - for every person who you know who has been arrested with small quantities for personal use, calculate their percentage against all those you know who have been smoking, vaping or dropping for years and years and years without a fine, an arrest or a hassle.

Anyway, i am sure this won't stop the griping, but hopefully some of you will think about and agree that despite what we love to whine about, we have it pretty damn good.

Cheers,
(puts on fire retardant suit)

JBArk

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

No, I don't forgive them.
I don't forgive them for their human rights abuses.
I don't forgive them for trampling my rights as a citizen.
I don't forgive them for forcing my spirituality underground
I don't forgive them for making it almost impossible for me to scientifically pursue my interests,

I will NEVER, EVER forgive them for being complicit in keeping people from getting medicine that might save their lives the way it did mine.

I try to be forgiving and keep an open mind, and I think, in time, most wounds will heal. Those first four crimes, yes, I could forgive with changes of policy.
That last one, however, no, I will never forgive. I wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for psychedelic mushrooms and the idea that we are taking that chance away from people just like me in the name of profit is abhorrent to me. I will never forgive that.

Yes, maybe some people (maybe most people) have convinced themselves they are genuinely doing good, but a lot of very bad people in history thought they were working for the greater good (coughGodwin'sLawcough) and I don't forgive them either.

Blessings
~ND

 

[ZenSpice]

No way on this green earth or the lowest rungs of Hades. The drug war is one of a myriad of reasons and examples of how those in control are detached from the bulk of reality, willfully ignorant of suffering while being wholly complicit in it's cause and not at all deserving of any forgiveness, let alone indeed a second chance.

Fool me once and all that.

 

[universecannon]

if it all turns around, the drug war ends, etc etc...yea, i suppose (although its probably irrelevant whether we do or not)

we're all one...all one family...all one interconnected organism that has fallen out of touch with the natural balance of the gaian matrix...all in this together on spaceship earth

do we forgive our children, brothers, parents, friends, and ourselves for our mistakes? yes...so we can collectively move on and heal

this will undoubtedly sound like a hippy-dippy notion to many people... but many of us here have had the experience of literally becoming one with other people, humanity, the earth, etc. It can't be explained in a way that conveys it- only experienced. I think we have that level of awareness lying dormant within us

on the flipside of the coin, some amount of people in the government probably think that they're actually doing a good thing..."the road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes to mind

I should note that i do look at it differently than most people...I think theres enough evidence now to basically conclude that the whole of humanity at large is literally suffering from a kind of epigenetic brain damage...the details of which i won't get into here, but its supported by data coming from many fields. One expected outcome of this diagnosis is that those who are most driven to take charge out of greed and a fear-driven need to control are by definition more affected by the condition (which we all have)

So the question really becomes this: do you punish and refuse to forgive a person who was born mentally disabled for their mistakes?


Not the most popular view, i'll admit :d

**borrows Jbarks flame retardant suit

 

[Global]

I thought I would post this video as a reminder that those in power and those who may do wrong, may not always have the easiest choices to make either. The drug war may not affect many of us at the Nexus, but it looks like it's probably wreaked quite some damage in that neighborhood.

 

[cosmic butterfly]

mass murder, destruction of the planet, control over our consciousness thus control over our freedom...how is this forgivable? i think the positions of power simply attract certain personality types that are addicted to power, it just makes sense that such ego-drivin and destructive people are running the world, its the way its always been for very long time

 

[hug46]

but has anyone that espouses it truly thought through the full ramifications of total legalization of ALL drugs, indiscriminately? I need surely not outline all the pitfalls to such an enlightened audience, but suffice to say that I believe we would be MUCH worse off.

Prohibition is awful, but the alternative is, I believe far more terrible.

I am not that enlightened, i would be interested in your opinion as to why we would be much worse off (and when i say we i don"t just mean the people at the consumer end of the market and there will always be a market as far as i can see).
I would like to add that i agree that we are comparatively very lucky in the West, sometimes folk don"t realise how easy they have it.
At the nexus there is no buying/selling talk (which i agree with) but there is plenty of discussions where people say they give or recieve gifts. Which i am pretty sure is still supply and more of a problem than just posession.
I wouldn"t want to be a politician.

 

[Ryusaki]

Those who do it with the intention to harm? Who enjoy suffering of others?
NO.
Never.
No forgiving.
No forgetting.

May the suffering they dish out come back to them a thousand times stronger.

 

[jbark]

but has anyone that espouses it truly thought through the full ramifications of total legalization of ALL drugs, indiscriminately? I need surely not outline all the pitfalls to such an enlightened audience, but suffice to say that I believe we would be MUCH worse off.

Prohibition is awful, but the alternative is, I believe far more terrible.

I am not that enlightened, i would be interested in your opinion as to why we would be much worse off (and when i say we i don"t just mean the people at the consumer end of the market and there will always be a market as far as i can see).
I would like to add that i agree that we are comparatively very lucky in the West, sometimes folk don"t realise how easy they have it.
I wouldn"t want to be a politician.

Drugs are readily available for many, but still largely stigmatized and actually rather difficult to acquire for the vast majority of the unconnected. Were they legalized (and I am assuming we are talking across the board, and not selectively) you would have a slew of untested research chemicals drowning the market, purchasable everywhere from head shops to pharmacies and walmarts. With the spate of recent "bath salt" incidents, it doesn't take a great mind to imagine where this would lead, let alone the simple fact of flooding the market with legal, questionable drugs with questionable effects and questionable long and short term side effects into the population at large.

Are there not quite enough crack heads, meth heads, coke fiends, opiate junkies and pill popping speed heads out there already? Legalization is a trickier issue than many will admit. I do fundamentally believe in the personal freedom to put anything into my organism I decide, I just feel I already have that freedom - and the misanthrope in me just doesn't trust the rest of humanity to be responsible enough not to destroy itself were this "freedom" legislated and thus condoned. Yes, it's a double edged sword - just enough fear keeps most away, but will not avert the truly curious. We got it great guys and gals. We are the curious, and free.

Nevertheless, we here at the nexus like to flag videos we find offensive, criticize people's nomenclature and approach to the "molecule", lambast those like Joe Rogan because he doesn't represent exactly what some of us believe a spokesperson should... We are, in a sense, policing and judging and creating house rules to which all must adhere. I am not criticizing this - on the contrary, I believe it is essential. I just think it is a little hypocritical to want to keep this to ourselves on one hand (by creating exclusivity and a "secret society" membership) and to decry evil against a system that essentially aids toward that goal (with a few notable youtube exceptions). It seems few here would really like to see DMT in the hands of pimple-faced teens and soccer moms and business execs and jocks and the Beta Phi Krappy crowd, but would however like to see it legalized and available to all. Cake and eat it?

Just the way I see it. I grow mushrooms from spores bought in town, have grown weed from seed from the same store, bought caapi, chacruna, MHRB, kratom, amanita muscaria etc etc ad nauseum. Do I feel persecuted? Were I too, I am sure those feelings would be overwashed by feelings of shameful hypocrisy.

JBArk

 

[Vodsel]

Prohibition is awful, but the alternative is, I believe far more terrible.

I did not even think about switching on the flamethrower for you since you made a sensible post, but I think this is a pernicious simplification. Is there only ONE alternative? Global ban, or free buffet?

We've been force fed black or white scenarios by them since we were born. We should try to get past that.

The OP question would take something like the Nuremberg Trials. Some would be guilty of crimes against humanity, others would not be. Any person who knowingly promotes policies that cause horrors like Ciudad Juárez should be sentenced by society, no appeal.

I myself would forgive. I want to die holding no grudges.

 

[Doodazzle]

For the most part, I'm right there with uni-cannon, in total forgiveness and acceptance land.


At the same time,

Government should not exist. We need to return to small sustainable communities.

We all make mistakes, in our confusions, in our fear. I pray to forgive myself, everyone else, and likewise be forgiven. But government is not a person--it is a fiction, a fear based delusion. Forgiving a delusion...strange concept. then again, government must have it's own mind now...as an egregore. I forgive everyone for creating and feeding this delusion, I get it, you were scared. Can we stop now?

 

[jbark]

Prohibition is awful, but the alternative is, I believe far more terrible.

I did not even think about switching on the flamethrower for you since you made a sensible post, but I think this is a pernicious simplification. Is there only ONE alternative? Global ban, or free buffet?

We've been force fed black or white scenarios by them since we were born. We should try to get past that.

The OP question would take something like the Nuremberg Trials. Some would be guilty of crimes against humanity, others would not be. Any person who knowingly promotes policies that cause horrors like Ciudad Juárez should be sentenced by society, no appeal.

I myself forgive. I want to die holding no grudges.

That's why I put it in there.

But global ban? Who's being black and white now? It is all available and even, yes, tolerated. Banned? Not in the true sense. We actually live in the grey, and should be happy about it (to a degree...)

JBArk

 

[jbark]

For the most part, I'm right there with uni-cannon, in total forgiveness and acceptance land.


At the same time,

Government should not exist. We need to return to small sustainable communities.

We all make mistakes, in our confusions, in our fear. I pray to forgive myself, everyone else, and likewise be forgiven. But government is not a person--it is a fiction, a fear based delusion. Forgiving a delusion...strange concept. then again, government must have it's own mind now...as an egregore. I forgive everyone for creating and feeding this delusion, I get it, you were scared. Can we stop now?

That's been tried over and over. Never works. There is no Shangri-la.

Auroville for one, if I need cite.

JBArk

 

[No Knowing]

@jbark I agree with Vodsel that you are going through the mental trap of black and white thinking. Prohibition or all you can eat RC buffet. Both sound pretty dangerous.

We might look to Portugal or The Netherlands for examples of government controlled legality that had proven effective in curtailing addicts and drug-related crime.

In a freer system, new drugs would always have to be studied for safety, but the old drugs which have known safety profiles could be released in a controlled fashion.

Addicts could be satiated, yet constantly offered free rehab. People obtaining entheogens could go through a screening process of sorts. Just ideas here...

I do agree with you that the current system, while still punishing a few unlucky users, seems to allow those who really need entheogens to find them[or grow them] with some applied effort. While also, barring [most] of their uneducated and recreational use from the huddled masses.

@universecannon Yeah, I read Left in the Dark on your recommendation and it seems to make more and more sense as I apply it to all the problems I see. I really believe diet[one of the main tenets of that epigenetic brain damage philosophy] has caused MOST problems in the modern world. A modern diet surely produces an inferior man physically and mentally. And to borrow a phrase from computer programming and apply it to diet...

"Garbage in, garbage out."

I also agree that strangely our political system draws those who WANT to rule not those who SHOULD rule. This is never good because these people are in power for the wrong reasons...

 

[Doodazzle]

For the most part, I'm right there with uni-cannon, in total forgiveness and acceptance land.


At the same time,

Government should not exist. We need to return to small sustainable communities.

We all make mistakes, in our confusions, in our fear. I pray to forgive myself, everyone else, and likewise be forgiven. But government is not a person--it is a fiction, a fear based delusion. Forgiving a delusion...strange concept. then again, government must have it's own mind now...as an egregore. I forgive everyone for creating and feeding this delusion, I get it, you were scared. Can we stop now?

That's been tried over and over. Never works. There is no Shangri-la.

Auroville for one, if I need cite.

JBArk

Canada, all of the Americas, were once full of people living in small sustainable communities. Did not all of humanity once live in small communities?

And I do not know what shangri-la you refer to. I'm talking real world, planet earth. Citing a single failed utopian idealistic commune and saying "it failed" is um, well, it seems silly to me.

 

[Vodsel]

But global ban? Who's being black and white now? It is all available and even, yes, tolerated. Banned? Not in the true sense. We actually live in the grey, and should be happy about it (to a degree...)

I get what you mean, and you're right regarding the nuances and that grey zone (and yes, we are proof, in spite of having to remain anonymous and often paranoid), but I was referring to your mention of "the alternative". There's many alternatives. The same people that have persecuted users of psychoactives all over have been giving this one alternative where everyone can buy and take whatever they want, waving the perspective in people's faces like a boogeyman. And there's very reasonable middle grounds, beyond the absurdities of the grey zone we live in, and before the spooky global drug maelstrom.

But I get your point... and I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[jbark]

For the most part, I'm right there with uni-cannon, in total forgiveness and acceptance land.


At the same time,

Government should not exist. We need to return to small sustainable communities.

We all make mistakes, in our confusions, in our fear. I pray to forgive myself, everyone else, and likewise be forgiven. But government is not a person--it is a fiction, a fear based delusion. Forgiving a delusion...strange concept. then again, government must have it's own mind now...as an egregore. I forgive everyone for creating and feeding this delusion, I get it, you were scared. Can we stop now?

That's been tried over and over. Never works. There is no Shangri-la.

Auroville for one, if I need cite.

JBArk

Canada, all of the Americas, were once full of people living in small sustainable communities. Did not all of humanity once live in small communities?

And I do not know what shangri-la you refer to. I'm talking real world, planet earth. Citing a single failed utopian idealistic commune and saying "it failed" is um, well, it seems silly to me.

...And Canada and all the Americas have evolved into what they are today - exactly my point.

It would be exhausting to search up all those that have failed, so let's flip this around and take the "silliness" out:

Name ONE that has thrived and flourished for more than one generation that has sprouted up from within the industrailized world. (I had to add that last bit to avoid a list of tribal cultures, which I am sure most on this internet forum would agree, given that we all type on computers and probably have cell phones, would be a regression at most and at least not a realistic a goal.)

I have yet to have anyone answer this with a concrete example. Until at least one community survives and thrives and does not break down into petty politics and private interests and power hunger, it's kind of a moot point to suggest it's possible, in the light of all those that have failed or evolved into something different.

 

[jbark]

But global ban? Who's being black and white now? It is all available and even, yes, tolerated. Banned? Not in the true sense. We actually live in the grey, and should be happy about it (to a degree...)

I get what you mean, and you're right regarding the nuances and that grey zone (and yes, we are proof, in spite of having to remain anonymous and often paranoid), but I was referring to your mention of "the alternative". There's many alternatives. The same people that have persecuted users of psychoactives all over have been giving this one alternative where everyone can buy and take whatever they want, waving the perspective in people's faces like a boogeyman. And there's very reasonable middle grounds, beyond the absurdities of the grey zone we live in, and before the spooky global drug maelstrom.

But I get your point... and I don't want to derail the thread.

I don't think this is a derail at all - unless the OP chimes in...?

But thanks you for the acknowledgment. There are many alternatives, but they take time and education. And that is happening. Actually pretty fast - marijuana will be legalized in most of the west likely within one generation or a little more after the 60s and 70s. So where's the gripe?

I am playing devil's advocate to a degree. With any cultural change or revolution there need to be extreme views. Aim for a mile and accept a kilometre.

So the kneejerk backlash and the we've-been-so-forlorn-so-long and the government-is-evil attitudes are natural and I don't discourage them, but I will point them out for what they are. Just bringing a different perspective to this heavily weighted one-sided line of thinking.

We are very lucky, need i repeat. Not perfect, far from it, perhaps broken, but less broken than it could be and less broken, perhaps, than ever before. Time will tell if it's all too little too late, but I feel encouraged, even if i am in a minority.

JBArk