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Dr. Martin Ball - Entheogenicist
- Thread starter Mitakuye Oyasin
- Start date
[YOUTUBE]
This video goes well with ma buttered popcorn.
This video goes well with ma buttered popcorn.
InfiniteFacticity
just curious
rolandrat is acting as a mere troll would. I must beg you, endlessness, not to grace his empty posts with a response. Of course, I don't mean that all his posts are empty, only that you might ignore those that are.
PS
He was referring to the forum members as a pack of rabid dogs, a reiteration of an earlier post of his, hence your confusion perhaps.
PS
He was referring to the forum members as a pack of rabid dogs, a reiteration of an earlier post of his, hence your confusion perhaps.
rolandrat said:
No room for trolls here, you'r out...
To the other people in this thread: please behave and debate on a polite, respectful and constructive manner. We can do much better than what I've seen so far.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
PureMan
Rising Star
Wow.. I leave for a few hours and there is already two more pages..
New response from Martin ---
----
Thanks for the invite to join in on the discussion, but I don't enjoy participating in on-line forums and reserve my responses for people who take the time to contact me directly, such as yourself. Forums tend to get heated and peoples egos get all riled up - especially given that I'm provocative and call it like I see it.
At any rate, I've copied the latest comments and written in some responses. Enjoy!
- M
“The thing that blows my mind is how he clearly stated many times that he has The Absolute Undebatable Truth (basically, he's channeling god) and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is deluded, and doesn't even deserve a response (which is strange since, as you said, his goal is "to help people reach an authentic state of being"; whatever that means). So much for a help, i guess he will only help if you buy his stuff. All while refusing to have any discussion with the 100+ people who added some constructive criticism to his articles, since, as he said, "their just deluded". If he really was authentic, and interested in getting people to understand his theories, then don't you think he'd actually RESPOND to those who replied to his articles? Or the response to it posted by peter meyer?
Response: Internet comment posting and forums are not, I have found, the best venue for a genuine and personal conversation of complex ideas, so I don’t participate. I have found that people who have genuine questions and are actually interested in my answer – as opposed to merely voicing their concerns publicly on the internet, contact me directly. Every week I get numerous emails that I spend several hours writing detailed responses to. This is how I choose to engage with those who have questions. For the most part, those who post comments on webpages already have their minds made up and are looking for a venue to vent and find like-minded people – not engage in genuine dialogue, which takes more time, thought, and care than comment postings.
And since when is a deepening of the voice a sign of anything but puberty?! He only deepend his voice after he slandered mckenna for having a high pitched voice-which he said was a sign of "not speaking from the heart"; basically a diagnosis out of thin air. if you believe in that deep voice crock of shit-what won't you believe? I'm not saying anymore on the inaccuracy of his understanding of mckenna, because if you don't see it then your probably just not that familiar with his stuff-since most of it is outright lies, or as if the man watched a few youtube videos and then began writing.."
Response: Let’s get the fact’s straight – I started experiencing my voice deepening two years prior to my writing the McKenna article, and my understanding of the significance of pitch and tone of voice was merely applied to McKenna as an example of how energetic holdings are reflected in individual’s choices and means of expression. It is in no way a “diagnosis out of thin air” and is completely consistent with everything else I’ve been sharing about the nature of energy and individual expression. McKenna is here used as an example – I can similarly analyze anyone’s tone of voice or speech tendencies, though of course the diagnosis would be unique to each individual.
As for accusing me of presenting “outright lies,” I don’t know how this can conceivably be possible given that I was quoting McKenna verbatim – word-for-word. As such, it is impossible for me to present “lies” about McKenna – they are direct quotes. Also, as I made clear in the article, I was presenting views of McKenna’s that were publicly available for anyone to listen to and judge the value of. I was never claiming to present a complete overview of McKenna’s views – just clear critiques of several, easily accessible McKenna talks on DMT which were largely representative of his views on DMT, given that he often repeated the same ideas and stories.
---
"How is it ok to offer healing sessions for $200 profit?.. is that not disrespecting the medicine? It certainly calls into question the motives."
Response: Really? Come on! Why is there an expectation that someone doing healing work should work for free? Would you expect the same of your doctor, or your therapist, your yoga instructor, your body worker, or your psychologist? Would you expect to show up at an ayahuasquero’s place in South America and not make a financial contribution? By all measurements, my fees are more than reasonable for the time, energy, and effort that I put into helping others. It’s absurd to think that I should work for free. And don’t even get me started about “disrespecting the medicine”! What a load of BS!
Not to mention, I offer a wide array of information for free: public talks, presentations, podcasts, youtube videos, downloadable writings, essays, articles, etc. etc. etc., not even counting the many hours I spend answering individual emails and taking phone and skype calls from those seeking help and guidance. This comment is just laughable!
---
"Hitler was also authentic. Becoming authentic is dangerous. It's better to stay in the cardboard world, until we find out how to be authentic without doing harm to other living beings."
Response: Hitler was authentically deluded. This is a silly comment.
-----
"What direct proof apart from subjective experience does he has that 5-meo-dmt is superior and dmt comes a close second in terms of "seeing one's true nature"? What is the criteria? If its only subjective, then isnt it ultimately a belief just like any other? why is it more valuable than other opinions/beliefs he criticizes ?
Response: My criteria is based on the relative experience of energy between the two. Objectively speaking, 5-MeO-DMT is 4 to 5 times more powerful in terms of dose range, and the experience itself has a different energetic quality. All medicines are tools – some are more effective in presenting direct energetic experiences than others. I’ve written a great deal about this and it isn’t about criticizing other medicines – just delineating their relative energetic values.
Just check his website, it's all so general that its hardly a real theory nor original. The same "energies and we are the expressions of god and must align to the true nature of reality" that you hear in a billion places.
Response: Yes, much of what I say is reflected elsewhere, but there’s also a great deal that is original and unique, particularly when I discuss my understanding of the energetic nature of ego and how it responds to the energetic presentation of different entheogens, and the methods and techniques I recommend for working with the medicines – none of that information has ever been articulated by anyone else. And the only way for anyone to evaluate such methods and techniques is by trying them out directly and seeing what results one gets.
He over-uses the concept of energy and doesnt seem coherent with the physical implication of it. Energy has a form and is measurable. When he talks about consciousness with "higher energies" or all the other instances, energy in what form? What evidence does he have to back up what he is saying, how is this energy being measured?
Response: This comment is attempting to get too metaphysical. I’m talking about the direct experience of personal energy and consciousness – I’m not discussing any “higher energies” here – just normal experience.
What does he mean with love being manifested through the heart, lungs and vascular system? That seems like again an arbitrary evidence-less definition. What is love for him and why does he not consider it coming from our consciousness and therefore related to the brain?"
Response: Do you experience the feeling of love in your heart or your head? Where is the phenomenological center of that energy? This comment is also confusing the issue as I discuss the energetic geometry of our physiology, which is a distinct issue from the “feeling of love.”
Then again he talks all these claims "aligning with reality" but again what is reality and how can you tell when a person is aligned or not? What evidence does he have to show that a person is aligned ?
Response: Maybe do some more reading and listening to what I’ve put out there: I’ve made all of this very clear already and don’t need to make additional comments here.
What about ego being an illusionary construct, does he consider himself free of ego all the time? and if not, is what makes him any better than anybody else? Can he measure ego? What evidence does he have that ego exist? Do indigenous people have ego even if they dont have the concept of ego?
Response: The same as my response above – do some more research as I’ve answered these questions.
Also what are the consequences of his thoughts to the dilemas that normal people have in normal lives? Appart from "buy my book and get energetically aligned", what do his theories really answer or help the world in?
Response: Same as above – I’ve made all this abundantly clear through my FREE public talks, recordings, and writings – there’s even a section on my website about the “fruits” of doing this work. Does this person not read?
New response from Martin ---
----
Thanks for the invite to join in on the discussion, but I don't enjoy participating in on-line forums and reserve my responses for people who take the time to contact me directly, such as yourself. Forums tend to get heated and peoples egos get all riled up - especially given that I'm provocative and call it like I see it.
At any rate, I've copied the latest comments and written in some responses. Enjoy!
- M
“The thing that blows my mind is how he clearly stated many times that he has The Absolute Undebatable Truth (basically, he's channeling god) and that anyone who doesn't agree with them is deluded, and doesn't even deserve a response (which is strange since, as you said, his goal is "to help people reach an authentic state of being"; whatever that means). So much for a help, i guess he will only help if you buy his stuff. All while refusing to have any discussion with the 100+ people who added some constructive criticism to his articles, since, as he said, "their just deluded". If he really was authentic, and interested in getting people to understand his theories, then don't you think he'd actually RESPOND to those who replied to his articles? Or the response to it posted by peter meyer?
Response: Internet comment posting and forums are not, I have found, the best venue for a genuine and personal conversation of complex ideas, so I don’t participate. I have found that people who have genuine questions and are actually interested in my answer – as opposed to merely voicing their concerns publicly on the internet, contact me directly. Every week I get numerous emails that I spend several hours writing detailed responses to. This is how I choose to engage with those who have questions. For the most part, those who post comments on webpages already have their minds made up and are looking for a venue to vent and find like-minded people – not engage in genuine dialogue, which takes more time, thought, and care than comment postings.
And since when is a deepening of the voice a sign of anything but puberty?! He only deepend his voice after he slandered mckenna for having a high pitched voice-which he said was a sign of "not speaking from the heart"; basically a diagnosis out of thin air. if you believe in that deep voice crock of shit-what won't you believe? I'm not saying anymore on the inaccuracy of his understanding of mckenna, because if you don't see it then your probably just not that familiar with his stuff-since most of it is outright lies, or as if the man watched a few youtube videos and then began writing.."
Response: Let’s get the fact’s straight – I started experiencing my voice deepening two years prior to my writing the McKenna article, and my understanding of the significance of pitch and tone of voice was merely applied to McKenna as an example of how energetic holdings are reflected in individual’s choices and means of expression. It is in no way a “diagnosis out of thin air” and is completely consistent with everything else I’ve been sharing about the nature of energy and individual expression. McKenna is here used as an example – I can similarly analyze anyone’s tone of voice or speech tendencies, though of course the diagnosis would be unique to each individual.
As for accusing me of presenting “outright lies,” I don’t know how this can conceivably be possible given that I was quoting McKenna verbatim – word-for-word. As such, it is impossible for me to present “lies” about McKenna – they are direct quotes. Also, as I made clear in the article, I was presenting views of McKenna’s that were publicly available for anyone to listen to and judge the value of. I was never claiming to present a complete overview of McKenna’s views – just clear critiques of several, easily accessible McKenna talks on DMT which were largely representative of his views on DMT, given that he often repeated the same ideas and stories.
---
"How is it ok to offer healing sessions for $200 profit?.. is that not disrespecting the medicine? It certainly calls into question the motives."
Response: Really? Come on! Why is there an expectation that someone doing healing work should work for free? Would you expect the same of your doctor, or your therapist, your yoga instructor, your body worker, or your psychologist? Would you expect to show up at an ayahuasquero’s place in South America and not make a financial contribution? By all measurements, my fees are more than reasonable for the time, energy, and effort that I put into helping others. It’s absurd to think that I should work for free. And don’t even get me started about “disrespecting the medicine”! What a load of BS!
Not to mention, I offer a wide array of information for free: public talks, presentations, podcasts, youtube videos, downloadable writings, essays, articles, etc. etc. etc., not even counting the many hours I spend answering individual emails and taking phone and skype calls from those seeking help and guidance. This comment is just laughable!
---
"Hitler was also authentic. Becoming authentic is dangerous. It's better to stay in the cardboard world, until we find out how to be authentic without doing harm to other living beings."
Response: Hitler was authentically deluded. This is a silly comment.
-----
"What direct proof apart from subjective experience does he has that 5-meo-dmt is superior and dmt comes a close second in terms of "seeing one's true nature"? What is the criteria? If its only subjective, then isnt it ultimately a belief just like any other? why is it more valuable than other opinions/beliefs he criticizes ?
Response: My criteria is based on the relative experience of energy between the two. Objectively speaking, 5-MeO-DMT is 4 to 5 times more powerful in terms of dose range, and the experience itself has a different energetic quality. All medicines are tools – some are more effective in presenting direct energetic experiences than others. I’ve written a great deal about this and it isn’t about criticizing other medicines – just delineating their relative energetic values.
Just check his website, it's all so general that its hardly a real theory nor original. The same "energies and we are the expressions of god and must align to the true nature of reality" that you hear in a billion places.
Response: Yes, much of what I say is reflected elsewhere, but there’s also a great deal that is original and unique, particularly when I discuss my understanding of the energetic nature of ego and how it responds to the energetic presentation of different entheogens, and the methods and techniques I recommend for working with the medicines – none of that information has ever been articulated by anyone else. And the only way for anyone to evaluate such methods and techniques is by trying them out directly and seeing what results one gets.
He over-uses the concept of energy and doesnt seem coherent with the physical implication of it. Energy has a form and is measurable. When he talks about consciousness with "higher energies" or all the other instances, energy in what form? What evidence does he have to back up what he is saying, how is this energy being measured?
Response: This comment is attempting to get too metaphysical. I’m talking about the direct experience of personal energy and consciousness – I’m not discussing any “higher energies” here – just normal experience.
What does he mean with love being manifested through the heart, lungs and vascular system? That seems like again an arbitrary evidence-less definition. What is love for him and why does he not consider it coming from our consciousness and therefore related to the brain?"
Response: Do you experience the feeling of love in your heart or your head? Where is the phenomenological center of that energy? This comment is also confusing the issue as I discuss the energetic geometry of our physiology, which is a distinct issue from the “feeling of love.”
Then again he talks all these claims "aligning with reality" but again what is reality and how can you tell when a person is aligned or not? What evidence does he have to show that a person is aligned ?
Response: Maybe do some more reading and listening to what I’ve put out there: I’ve made all of this very clear already and don’t need to make additional comments here.
What about ego being an illusionary construct, does he consider himself free of ego all the time? and if not, is what makes him any better than anybody else? Can he measure ego? What evidence does he have that ego exist? Do indigenous people have ego even if they dont have the concept of ego?
Response: The same as my response above – do some more research as I’ve answered these questions.
Also what are the consequences of his thoughts to the dilemas that normal people have in normal lives? Appart from "buy my book and get energetically aligned", what do his theories really answer or help the world in?
Response: Same as above – I’ve made all this abundantly clear through my FREE public talks, recordings, and writings – there’s even a section on my website about the “fruits” of doing this work. Does this person not read?
InfiniteFacticity
just curious
Review of Dr. Martin Bell's book
I found this article helpful, since I am not inclined to financially support charlatans by buying their dogma-espousing novels.
I particularly enjoyed the comments at the bottom...
Also, although most of his blather obviously cannot be categorically confirmed or denied, can we at least somehow bury his absurd theory on the voice's pitch relating to "speaking from the heart"?
Is there any sense in this at all? Do I even need to make the point that being a good public speaker has very little to do with sincerity?
(If you don't believe me, at least listen to John Popper of Hook)
Or was he making a point which my ego is preventing me from comprehending? (not sarcasm, if there is a point i missed please elucidate)
I found this article helpful, since I am not inclined to financially support charlatans by buying their dogma-espousing novels.
I particularly enjoyed the comments at the bottom...
Also, although most of his blather obviously cannot be categorically confirmed or denied, can we at least somehow bury his absurd theory on the voice's pitch relating to "speaking from the heart"?
(Terence on DMT: An Entheological Analysis of McKennas Experiences in the Tryptamine Mirror of the Self | Reality Sandwich)
Is there any sense in this at all? Do I even need to make the point that being a good public speaker has very little to do with sincerity?
(If you don't believe me, at least listen to John Popper of Hook)
Or was he making a point which my ego is preventing me from comprehending? (not sarcasm, if there is a point i missed please elucidate)
Electric.Sight
Rising Star
My voice is pretty deep, I guess I'm on the right path! Or maybe it's just because my father (who has zero entheogenic experience) has a fairly deep voice himself, genetics are pretty cool:wink:
I've read Martin's article on Terence (Terence on DMT: An Entheological Analysis of McKennas Experiences in the Tryptamine Mirror of the Self | Reality Sandwich), and I mostly like it.
His basic idea seems to be that every psychedelic experience where the observer gets lost in the observed is a worthless circus of ego- or self-projections. He sees this as a negative thing, and thinks we should "wake up" from our dreams, by realizing that we are projecting. When this happens, the energy that was used to create the projections pulls back to the center, and instead of producing illusions, illuminates the actual reality in the here-and-now. By taking responsibility for our energetic state and operation, we then gain conscious control of our own part in this infinite-faced jewel of creation.
Basically he says the same thing as Krishnamurti did. Cut off everything, it's all just dreams, abide in the present. Or Chögyam Trungpa, according to whom enlightened life begins when we learn how to prepare a good coffee without spilling out water and serve it elegantly, without trembling hands.
I don't really understand though, why he's attacking Terence... And I don't see what's the purpose of him becoming an Übermensch (and trying to pull others up). He seems to think that the rest of the world is in delusion. I suppose he also thinks that he is the first example of what is to come, a new, enlightened human race or something. (This feels very uncomfortable btw, but perhaps just because what he claims to have accomplished is so far away from our present confused state.) He feels like a 1 meter wide metallic pole in the center of a junkyard, reaching up to the stratosphere. And he doesn't seem to appreciate the junk lying all around.
I also wonder what he will accomplish with creating this sharp contrast between him and the junk. If this is all the manifestation of a single God Mind (as he states), then his actions will cause imbalance in this Mind, which will have to be canceled out by an inevitable backlash. How does he hope he can stand up against the mechanics of the universe? I were certainly afraid that I'd be crushed to bits by the opposition. What's the point in all of this?
A particularly offending thing is that he tells the junk that they are junk. I don't think this is too polite either, especially if most of the junk has no chance to realize what he's talking about (they are too much lost in their projections). If I were at such a high level, I would remain silent and let my students find me as the Universal Mind sees fit.
And why doesn't he appreciate these limits, these boundaries, the beauty of the ego construct? He seems to think the ego is a prison (ok, I also feel like that sometimes), and entirely unnecessary. But if ego was created by the God Mind, then it serves a useful purpose, doesn't it? What if the ego is a protective shelter for those who are not ready yet to gain control of their own energetic being? Handling it like this, the offense caused by the perceived elitism could be somewhat mitigated.
He also seems to take a negative view of the play of maya, the cosmic game. He thinks of it as something which we should get away from and wake up to reality. But isn't the play of maya something that the Godhead itself wants to play? Our entire existence seems to have been designed for this exact purpose. One could say that these Neo-ish characters like Martin W. Ball are actually ruining the game and should be stopped by respectable agents.
Regarding the condemnation of psychedelic projections: in psychedelic psychotherapy, there is a central rule that the sessions must be kept internalized. Instead of projecting the psychedelic experience to the outer screen (the sitters and the treatment situation), one should project one's self to the inner world, because the latter is much more malleable, and therefore the content of the experience can find its full expression much easier there. Because the problems of the self are invisible, the only way to see them and work with them is to pour them into manifestation somehow. Playing it out in the inner world under the influence of a psychedelic is much better, then waging a war against a projected enemy in the outer one which won't really solve anything (just vent the frustration for a while). From this point of view, psychedelic projections can lead to the knowledge of self - provided that the client can identify them as such (projections) - and therefore they are not inherently bad.
His basic idea seems to be that every psychedelic experience where the observer gets lost in the observed is a worthless circus of ego- or self-projections. He sees this as a negative thing, and thinks we should "wake up" from our dreams, by realizing that we are projecting. When this happens, the energy that was used to create the projections pulls back to the center, and instead of producing illusions, illuminates the actual reality in the here-and-now. By taking responsibility for our energetic state and operation, we then gain conscious control of our own part in this infinite-faced jewel of creation.
Basically he says the same thing as Krishnamurti did. Cut off everything, it's all just dreams, abide in the present. Or Chögyam Trungpa, according to whom enlightened life begins when we learn how to prepare a good coffee without spilling out water and serve it elegantly, without trembling hands.
I don't really understand though, why he's attacking Terence... And I don't see what's the purpose of him becoming an Übermensch (and trying to pull others up). He seems to think that the rest of the world is in delusion. I suppose he also thinks that he is the first example of what is to come, a new, enlightened human race or something. (This feels very uncomfortable btw, but perhaps just because what he claims to have accomplished is so far away from our present confused state.) He feels like a 1 meter wide metallic pole in the center of a junkyard, reaching up to the stratosphere. And he doesn't seem to appreciate the junk lying all around.
I also wonder what he will accomplish with creating this sharp contrast between him and the junk. If this is all the manifestation of a single God Mind (as he states), then his actions will cause imbalance in this Mind, which will have to be canceled out by an inevitable backlash. How does he hope he can stand up against the mechanics of the universe? I were certainly afraid that I'd be crushed to bits by the opposition. What's the point in all of this?
A particularly offending thing is that he tells the junk that they are junk. I don't think this is too polite either, especially if most of the junk has no chance to realize what he's talking about (they are too much lost in their projections). If I were at such a high level, I would remain silent and let my students find me as the Universal Mind sees fit.
And why doesn't he appreciate these limits, these boundaries, the beauty of the ego construct? He seems to think the ego is a prison (ok, I also feel like that sometimes), and entirely unnecessary. But if ego was created by the God Mind, then it serves a useful purpose, doesn't it? What if the ego is a protective shelter for those who are not ready yet to gain control of their own energetic being? Handling it like this, the offense caused by the perceived elitism could be somewhat mitigated.
He also seems to take a negative view of the play of maya, the cosmic game. He thinks of it as something which we should get away from and wake up to reality. But isn't the play of maya something that the Godhead itself wants to play? Our entire existence seems to have been designed for this exact purpose. One could say that these Neo-ish characters like Martin W. Ball are actually ruining the game and should be stopped by respectable agents.
Regarding the condemnation of psychedelic projections: in psychedelic psychotherapy, there is a central rule that the sessions must be kept internalized. Instead of projecting the psychedelic experience to the outer screen (the sitters and the treatment situation), one should project one's self to the inner world, because the latter is much more malleable, and therefore the content of the experience can find its full expression much easier there. Because the problems of the self are invisible, the only way to see them and work with them is to pour them into manifestation somehow. Playing it out in the inner world under the influence of a psychedelic is much better, then waging a war against a projected enemy in the outer one which won't really solve anything (just vent the frustration for a while). From this point of view, psychedelic projections can lead to the knowledge of self - provided that the client can identify them as such (projections) - and therefore they are not inherently bad.
He obviously has never checked the Nexus to generalize that badly about internet forums... Genuine conversation and complex ideas, spending a lot of time and energy helping hundreds and hundreds (or thousands) of people giving them directly usable tools and practical knowledge, etc etc.. And for free, Martin Ball
Ahm, and what is the proof he has that deep voice means anything ? Subjective experience, aka "belief" ? Or does he have any scientific publication to back up his claims?
No, laughable is to ask for 200 bucks for a "healing" session, which he still has to offer any tangible proof he is actually doing anything because so far he just comes up with beliefs and misleading words of "energy alignment". Plus, which of those professonals he named commonly charges 200$ a session? And how about finding another job to pay the bills and doing the "charitable" work for free, if its that important for mankind? Or how about showing his "miracles" or amazing unheard-of Truth to randy foundation and getting a million bucks to support himself from then on and be able to dedicate himself to his trully altruistic work ? Or how about publishing his work on reliable peer reviewed magazines and thus spread his message ?
Again, hitler had unprovable (by facts, as opposed to rethoric) claims regarding a certain human superiority of a certain kind of people. Martin doesnt use race as excuse or violence, but yet he also has unprovable rethorics regarding a certain human superiority if you follow his expensive methods
Lol what? "Relative experience of energy" and "experience itself has a different energetic quality", as in, your subjective experience regarding it, and therefore unprovable in any way and therefore just an opinion/belief, just like those you seem to so cockily afirm you are superior to?
Objectively speaking salvia and LSD are stronger than both dmt and 5-meo, does that make them "energetically higher" too? Martin, you make no sense and its blatantly obvious you are just spreading your opinions and beliefs as facts.
So rehashing theories of all kinds and adding some arbitrary "energetic" model with no proof means its unique and valid?
What? How is it metaphysical? Look at the mirror, Martin Ball, you are the one getting metaphysical. Im talking about physics, as in, all energy has a form. Do you remember physics class, "kinetic, potential, thermal, chemical, electrical, electromagnetic, etc" ? Well basically they are all measurable forms of energy which have a direct impact our daily lives that we can all appreciate. You are perverting the concept of energy just like any new age author without seemingly understanding what it means. "Direct experience of personal energy" ? What does that even mean? Again, in what form are you talking about the energies?
What, so subjective experience is the proof that love is in the heart? "Energetic geometry", energy in what form, what proof does he have? More words to fool people into thinking he has some kind of coherent model....
Point me out then, because from what I've read in your webpage there is nothing clear about it. You have shown no proof that such a thing as alignment exists and that you can know it (and neither that a deep voice is evidence of that). Just rethorics, fancy words and bad logic (as well as hypocritical criticising of others beliefs when your own is nothing but a belief too)
Same as above...
The section fruits is nothing but a bunch of words in the same line as "you are all one, align with your energetic center" or whatever else typical kind of claims new age people like to make.
He is the one claiming to have the Theory of Everything, so burden of proof is on him. What does his theory offer in terms of the physics challenges the scientists are facing? What does his theory say about dark matter/energy, about entropy of blackholes, how does gravity unite with quantum physics, about possibility of parallel universes, about the cyclical universe model? What does it say in terms of results of particle colisions? What testable predictions does his theory make that can be tested? What argument does he have against the possibility of all reality being a simulation as gilbran2 asked?
What does his model offer for the daily life of people? What proof does he have that his model is in any way more effective than simply: "live a healthy life, exercise, be balanced, self-analyse through different tools, such as psychedelics" ?
and another major question I have: Since he so far offered no proof, it seems all his proof is in having the subjective experience like he did (by paying him 200 bucks and doing a session or buying some more of his material and doing his techniques), but he didnt seem to consider even once the fact that subjective experiences can be mistaken. Im sorry Martin Ball, that your psychedelic experiences seem subjectively so real and that you get so passionate about it, but you should really know that subjective experience can be mistaken, and you dont seem to consider it. Maybe someone else used your technique and felt it to be true too, but how about this: The people who are trying your techniques already have vested interest in it working (because they are looking for a model, otherwise they wouldnt be trying it, as well as the fact that they are already paying a big sum for it therefore they really want it to work), and that is why it seems to be working for them? What if, just what if, you are deluded in your subjective experience? So until you come with a more tangible proof other than "pay me and you'll see The Truth", then im sorry but you're not gonna get much credit here...
blablabla one could go on for ages
Ayawasqero
Esteemed member
Interesting.
The video below epitomises what Martin Ball is. Videos like the one below are the scourge of the psychedelic community and the reason why mainstream will always have problem accepting psychedelics.
[YOUTUBE]
Martin Ball, you're as useful as haemorrhoids, no offence to haemorrhoids of course.
[YOUTUBE]
Martin Ball, you're as useful as haemorrhoids, no offence to haemorrhoids of course.
LucidLemonade
Rising Star
^^^ :roll: If that is in anyway connected to the ultimate truth, then please, please leave me to my own delusions about reality, thanks... :lol:
PS: That did really make me smile/laugh, so for that Dr. Martin Ball I thank you...
PS: That did really make me smile/laugh, so for that Dr. Martin Ball I thank you...
Hypothetically speaking, x is a female who unfortunately has developed an adrenal tumour making excess testosterone;or alternatively x has become hypothyroid.Both of these conditions can cause the voice to deepen whether x likes it or not.Lets say her hypothyroidism gets very bad and untreated and she becomes cognitively impaired, does that mean her deeper-voiced demented ramblings are MORE authentic....?
I wouldnt be surprised if there are Nexians who have a PhD-and I hope they would concur that this simply means very detailed knowledge pertaining to a tiny niche of any topic.
Lastly, as others have stated anyone who claims to have the Ultimate Truth sussed out through drugs is someone to be wary of.
I wouldnt be surprised if there are Nexians who have a PhD-and I hope they would concur that this simply means very detailed knowledge pertaining to a tiny niche of any topic.
Lastly, as others have stated anyone who claims to have the Ultimate Truth sussed out through drugs is someone to be wary of.
MySmelf
Rising Star
GREAT points endlessness!
Also if he isn't deluded or he's above believing in fantasy than WHY DOES HE TALK TO A FRIGGING FEATHER!!! is this not fantasy?
Here is a link to the podcast were he meets his feather friend: "Light as a Feather"
Also if he isn't deluded or he's above believing in fantasy than WHY DOES HE TALK TO A FRIGGING FEATHER!!! is this not fantasy?
Here is a link to the podcast were he meets his feather friend: "Light as a Feather"
tetra said:
Touche. Of course, you won't get that special added bonus of watching the maestro do yoga, but you'll have enough spice to open your very own chain of Martin Ball Healing Centers.
Martin W. Ball(s a'floppin' while practicing fractal yoga) said:
Good point about salvia and LSD, Endlessness. So, his entire contention that the 5-MeO experience is stronger than DMT "by several orders of magnitude" (as he states in the RS article), really means nothing more than it's active in a lower dosage range. By the same rationale, LSD should be the deepest, most earth shattering entheogenic experience of them all - except that it really isn't. These compounds all do their own unique tricks in their own unique dosage ranges. Of course they all have different "energetic qualities". How does that make his case? Honestly, his consistent dismissal of DMT just seems to me another pretense designed to prop up and separate. His lesser used medicine sets him apart from the rest of us spice using philistines. He's gone sooooo much deeper with more profound medicine. Of course he alone holds the key.
It's funny to me how his enitre shtick revolves around this idea of somehow transcending the ego with permanence - as if without dying or getting lobotomized this is even a possibility - and yet at the same time, his entire demeanor and presentation is one of an egomaniac.
What a clown. What a pretender. What a foppish, self-absorbed poseur.
In the video posted above, Mr. Ball states that “god” is “a fractal energy being that permeates itself out into multiple forms simultaneously, including the human form”.
The observable universe consists of about 5% matter/energy. The remaining 95% is dark matter and dark energy. Although the name physicists have given to this unknown “quality” of the universe contains the word "energy", dark energy is NOT energy. So if “god” is a “fractal energy being”, then “god” comprises only 5% of the observable universe. What is the other 95% ??? A theory of reality that explains the nature of only 5% of observable reality isn’t very comprehensive.
I noticed that Mr. Ball has responded to some posts here, but there is a definite pattern to his responses. Posts that attack him personally, or that question his financial practices seem to get his attention. But posts such as this, that question the foundations of his idea in a rational, logical manner are either dismissed or ignored altogether.
This post addresses the unknown 95% of the observable universe (and it is generally accepted by physicists that much of the universe – the very distant majority of the universe – cannot be observed) which is neither matter nor energy.
A previous post of mine addressed the impossibility of ever knowing with any certainty the “true” nature of an “ultimate” reality.
I’m wondering how Mr. Ball would respond to these points? (Well, actually I don’t. He’ll either ignore them or dismiss them, because they don’t fit.)
The observable universe consists of about 5% matter/energy. The remaining 95% is dark matter and dark energy. Although the name physicists have given to this unknown “quality” of the universe contains the word "energy", dark energy is NOT energy. So if “god” is a “fractal energy being”, then “god” comprises only 5% of the observable universe. What is the other 95% ??? A theory of reality that explains the nature of only 5% of observable reality isn’t very comprehensive.
I noticed that Mr. Ball has responded to some posts here, but there is a definite pattern to his responses. Posts that attack him personally, or that question his financial practices seem to get his attention. But posts such as this, that question the foundations of his idea in a rational, logical manner are either dismissed or ignored altogether.
This post addresses the unknown 95% of the observable universe (and it is generally accepted by physicists that much of the universe – the very distant majority of the universe – cannot be observed) which is neither matter nor energy.
A previous post of mine addressed the impossibility of ever knowing with any certainty the “true” nature of an “ultimate” reality.
I’m wondering how Mr. Ball would respond to these points? (Well, actually I don’t. He’ll either ignore them or dismiss them, because they don’t fit.)
the only times i have ever been noticeably perturbed on this site have been the rare instance when a self-proclaimed deity has made an entrance. the She/it phenomenon and now, the Martin Ball charade. it is upsetting because it reflects poorly on our community and ultimately reduces our medicines (which access unknowable amounts of wisdom) down to little trinkets we use to get to a definite, quantified, knowable, packaged-with-a-bow end.
if this doesn't sit well with you....this ability to not only tell you that there is an answer to all of it, but to claim to 'know' this answer (and yet still choose to inhabit the body of a self-delusional human with countless observable faults that those IN HIS OWN COMMUNITY are quick to point out and be offended by), there is a reason it does. did the buddha's followers do anything but revere and love him? if they had forum/chatrooms back then, would people be having as much of an issue with mr. Gautama?
it seems that to those who are completely lacking any sort of psychedelic experience, martin ball might seem to have some sort of mystical power because he just gave me something that rocked my world and he claims to know how to control and explain this thing....but to us in this community who have worked with this thing A LOT more than he ever will, his whole shtick stinks. i have crazy compassion and concern for martin ball.....he appears to be one of those brothers who came to the path from a very 'cerebral/must understand' trajectory and has never been comfortable with simply being in the mystery. along comes 5Meo and rather than simply being moved by a profound, PERSONAL, psychedelic experience, he instead applies his 'must-know' mind to the task of explaining his experience. with certitude. :shock:
then one day he has an 'i am god' journey :shock: and instead of truly embodying that profound message and BEING A GOD (ie: no longer pander to the low impulses of the common man but live as a truly enlightened sage), instead mr. ball takes this profound message (that many of us have received at one point or other with our work) and feeds it to his ego which turns around and informs the people of earth (ie: the garbage) that he alone has this wisdom and FOR A MONETARY EXCHANGE, he will work with you to.....what?....be like him?....is that really what he wants?
it seems that his agenda isn't truly to help people. it appears that his ego would be very unhappy with that taking place. martin ball would be most comfortable simply being the dude who just knows more than you. always.
honestly- i'm quite unclear why he writes his books, does his talks and peddles his self-important beliefs. his website, his writings, his interviews and everything else i have researched smacks of a person just trying to be popular and make a buck. he is like a devout fundamentalist of some religion who needs to proslytize to validate his own wavering core beliefs.
he simply does not emanate even the slightest hint of enlightenment. he is like a bad actor trying to play the role of shaman. that video is emabarassing to watch and it breaks my heart for him at the same time because he is, like it or not, an 'out there in the public eye' representation of our community. that he openly offers his 'healing sessions' for money on the web could ultimately lead to him getting busted for selling a schedule 1 drug (our beloved medicine). another excellent step BACKWARD for our movement.
beware of anyone who would take on the awesome responsibilty of sharing such profoundly transformational medicine with such smugness. the medicine is the teacher. no money should ever be exchanged for it's teachings. if we were a tribe and we were cold and i found fire somewhere and brought it back to us, should i charge you money to share it's warmth and light with you? until we see ourselves in this way. as one. we will always stand in our own way. if one does become enlightened, as your own heart tells you, that person would only see this fact that much clearer. enlightenment is a dissolution of ego, not an inflation. mr. ball is an apple running around telling everyone he's an orange. i can't relate to him in any truly spiritual capacity because he is such a swirling hurricane of delusion. listening, reading, watching him is like watching a sleep-walker bumping into things. how can you even hate such a deluded soul? all you can do is have compassion for such a lost being. he wants SO BAD to be like those religious founders/icons he has read about for all those years back in school. it's sad to behold.
this has been an interesting thread. in the end, time will reaveal mr. ball to himself. he will have no impact on the greater movement. he will not live on as an exalted incarnation of anything profound or impactful. he will most likely have a radical breakdown at some point in the not-so-distant future if he ever takes a real dose of ayahuasca or ibogaine. in the end, he is very good for many of us to look at and understand how delusion and powerful medicine like DMT should not be combined...
not to rub salt in anything, but terrence mckenna was MUCH more of the real-deal. someone who openly and eloquently shared HIS experiences and encouraged all to make of it what they will. no ego. he always encouraged others to simply have their own experience. "what do YOU see when you look at the waterfall, what do YOU feel when you make love..."
Doctor Martin Ball, Phd.....this guy is simply a soul lost within his own mind.
with love and gratitude
if this doesn't sit well with you....this ability to not only tell you that there is an answer to all of it, but to claim to 'know' this answer (and yet still choose to inhabit the body of a self-delusional human with countless observable faults that those IN HIS OWN COMMUNITY are quick to point out and be offended by), there is a reason it does. did the buddha's followers do anything but revere and love him? if they had forum/chatrooms back then, would people be having as much of an issue with mr. Gautama?
it seems that to those who are completely lacking any sort of psychedelic experience, martin ball might seem to have some sort of mystical power because he just gave me something that rocked my world and he claims to know how to control and explain this thing....but to us in this community who have worked with this thing A LOT more than he ever will, his whole shtick stinks. i have crazy compassion and concern for martin ball.....he appears to be one of those brothers who came to the path from a very 'cerebral/must understand' trajectory and has never been comfortable with simply being in the mystery. along comes 5Meo and rather than simply being moved by a profound, PERSONAL, psychedelic experience, he instead applies his 'must-know' mind to the task of explaining his experience. with certitude. :shock:
then one day he has an 'i am god' journey :shock: and instead of truly embodying that profound message and BEING A GOD (ie: no longer pander to the low impulses of the common man but live as a truly enlightened sage), instead mr. ball takes this profound message (that many of us have received at one point or other with our work) and feeds it to his ego which turns around and informs the people of earth (ie: the garbage) that he alone has this wisdom and FOR A MONETARY EXCHANGE, he will work with you to.....what?....be like him?....is that really what he wants?
it seems that his agenda isn't truly to help people. it appears that his ego would be very unhappy with that taking place. martin ball would be most comfortable simply being the dude who just knows more than you. always.
honestly- i'm quite unclear why he writes his books, does his talks and peddles his self-important beliefs. his website, his writings, his interviews and everything else i have researched smacks of a person just trying to be popular and make a buck. he is like a devout fundamentalist of some religion who needs to proslytize to validate his own wavering core beliefs.
he simply does not emanate even the slightest hint of enlightenment. he is like a bad actor trying to play the role of shaman. that video is emabarassing to watch and it breaks my heart for him at the same time because he is, like it or not, an 'out there in the public eye' representation of our community. that he openly offers his 'healing sessions' for money on the web could ultimately lead to him getting busted for selling a schedule 1 drug (our beloved medicine). another excellent step BACKWARD for our movement.
beware of anyone who would take on the awesome responsibilty of sharing such profoundly transformational medicine with such smugness. the medicine is the teacher. no money should ever be exchanged for it's teachings. if we were a tribe and we were cold and i found fire somewhere and brought it back to us, should i charge you money to share it's warmth and light with you? until we see ourselves in this way. as one. we will always stand in our own way. if one does become enlightened, as your own heart tells you, that person would only see this fact that much clearer. enlightenment is a dissolution of ego, not an inflation. mr. ball is an apple running around telling everyone he's an orange. i can't relate to him in any truly spiritual capacity because he is such a swirling hurricane of delusion. listening, reading, watching him is like watching a sleep-walker bumping into things. how can you even hate such a deluded soul? all you can do is have compassion for such a lost being. he wants SO BAD to be like those religious founders/icons he has read about for all those years back in school. it's sad to behold.
this has been an interesting thread. in the end, time will reaveal mr. ball to himself. he will have no impact on the greater movement. he will not live on as an exalted incarnation of anything profound or impactful. he will most likely have a radical breakdown at some point in the not-so-distant future if he ever takes a real dose of ayahuasca or ibogaine. in the end, he is very good for many of us to look at and understand how delusion and powerful medicine like DMT should not be combined...
not to rub salt in anything, but terrence mckenna was MUCH more of the real-deal. someone who openly and eloquently shared HIS experiences and encouraged all to make of it what they will. no ego. he always encouraged others to simply have their own experience. "what do YOU see when you look at the waterfall, what do YOU feel when you make love..."
Doctor Martin Ball, Phd.....this guy is simply a soul lost within his own mind.
with love and gratitude
"As for accusing me of presenting “outright lies,” I don’t know how this can conceivably be possible given that I was quoting McKenna verbatim – word-for-word. As such, it is impossible for me to present “lies” about McKenna – they are direct quotes. Also, as I made clear in the article, I was presenting views of McKenna’s that were publicly available for anyone to listen to and judge the value of. I was never claiming to present a complete overview of McKenna’s views – just clear critiques of several, easily accessible McKenna talks on DMT which were largely representative of his views on DMT, given that he often repeated the same ideas and stories."
You quoted him and your interpretation was like that of a five year old who didn't know squat about what he was talking about..you looked at a trip he had that featured what he called the machine elves, and literally claimed this is all terence ever experienced with dmt when you said phrases like "its machine elves for him, everytime". How the hell could you possibly know that he experienced this everytime?
I'm not going to quote all the videos and writings terence has put out which feature other aspects of his psychedelic experiences outside of elves just because you didn't do your homework before criticizing someone. You also claim that terence is saying he is describing what the dmt experience "is", as if his description is how it is for everyone, when nothing could be further from the truth. He often said "don't take any of this seriously, these are just my ideas and my experiences. Look for yourself". Again, your drawing some inaccurate deductions from these quotes.
For example: "There are these things, which I call "self transforming machine elves," I also call them self-dribbling basketballs. They are, but they are none of these things. I mean you have to understand: these are metaphors in the truest sense, meaning that they're lies! [...] I name them 'Tykes' because tyke is a word that means to me a small child, ... and when you burst into the DMT space this is the Aeon - it's a child, and it's at play with colored balls, and I am in eternity, apparently, in the presence of this thing. ”
—Terence McKenna, "Time and Mind (from wikipedia)
You then go on analyzing his experience and conclude that "Quite interestingly, and also quite unscientifically, Terence appears to have never taken the next step in his machine elf reveries: actually attempting to do as they are instructing him. I have not found a single reference to Terence taking the machine elves' advice or instruction. He repeatedly tells us that the machine elves are instructing him to "not be amazed" and "just do it," meaning to sing an object into existence. Yet at virtually every recounting of his DMT experiences, he tells us that this he is dumbfound by this command. Odd, isn't it that he never attempts the one thing they tell him to do?"
I'm not arguing the validity or the nature of what terence is experiencing, since i can humbly admit that i don't know what happens on dmt, much less, what happens on other peoples dmt experiences who i've never even met. What I'm pointing out is that your claim that "he never tried to do what they were telling him to which shows hes blablabla" is incorrect, like many of your claims. There are numerous audio recordings-and mentions in his books- of terence describing producing this language which first "feels like a bubble grow inside of me". He talks about it in those goofy alien dreamtime videos on youtube and many others that i've heard before but not forget.. Mantid on erowid describes a similar experience with another person. He thought it was a thing that could be learned, and said you could sculp objects with your voice. He described this as a synesthesia-like transition of language processing from the auditory to the visionary centers and that it was a human ability just under the surface, and was related to how shamans alter the visions through sounds.
I'm not saying any of this is 'real', whatever the hell that means, and again i'm not arguing the true-ness of it all because i don't care. It could have been just his ego-projecting, fuck i don't know, how could anyone know! I'm just pointing out that you quoted out of context with disregard to what else he has said on the matter besides a short little youtube video. I don't care if your not happy with me not providing direct links. You can lookup alien dreamtime if you want or scour through the dozens of hours of audio links yourself, i have better things to do then scour hours of audio in order to argue properly with some charlatan.
MySmelf,wow, that feather podcast is interesting.. This is just hilarious. He basically says his theories contain no mysticism, or beliefs, or magic, or ego, just all truth ectect..and denounces terences and others experiences of entities and visions as "ego projections"..But then goes on to say how his experience with salvia brought him into direct communication with god, who he later said he communicated with as he was waving a feather around. He then claims that he was sweating 5meodmt, and that you could have collected the sweat, dried it out, and smoked it (this could be a joke, however i've not once heard any humor from him-or humility, for that matter- so i doubt it is).
How is this any less mystical or magical than a million stories just like it that have been heard for many thousands of years? And how come he doesn't once consider that none of this is "ego projection", or just an aspect of his own mind, or something else? Sounds like he was so open that his brain fell out.. So he had a mystical/psychedelic sober experience, or whatever you want to call it..woopty doo..tons of people here, and all throughout history, have had these. An example is shamans who have even been known to be able to smoke some mapacho, sing an icaro, and bring in the visions while 'sober'. this post-psychedelic contact with that state of mind doesn't mean they are necessarily talking to god, (take a look into how meta-programming works). He naively swallows without question the first idea that its god, and doesn't even consider any other possibilities..not even his favorite diagnosis; ego projection. And now he is trying to sell us 'confused egos' THE ANSWER from his god state of non-ego existance.. Give me a breakl..this sounds like a sheer sign of psychedelic-jesus-syndrome. Is it any coincidence that Martin then denounces everyone who doesn't agree with him as having big egos?
You quoted him and your interpretation was like that of a five year old who didn't know squat about what he was talking about..you looked at a trip he had that featured what he called the machine elves, and literally claimed this is all terence ever experienced with dmt when you said phrases like "its machine elves for him, everytime". How the hell could you possibly know that he experienced this everytime?
I'm not going to quote all the videos and writings terence has put out which feature other aspects of his psychedelic experiences outside of elves just because you didn't do your homework before criticizing someone. You also claim that terence is saying he is describing what the dmt experience "is", as if his description is how it is for everyone, when nothing could be further from the truth. He often said "don't take any of this seriously, these are just my ideas and my experiences. Look for yourself". Again, your drawing some inaccurate deductions from these quotes.
For example: "There are these things, which I call "self transforming machine elves," I also call them self-dribbling basketballs. They are, but they are none of these things. I mean you have to understand: these are metaphors in the truest sense, meaning that they're lies! [...] I name them 'Tykes' because tyke is a word that means to me a small child, ... and when you burst into the DMT space this is the Aeon - it's a child, and it's at play with colored balls, and I am in eternity, apparently, in the presence of this thing. ”
—Terence McKenna, "Time and Mind (from wikipedia)
You then go on analyzing his experience and conclude that "Quite interestingly, and also quite unscientifically, Terence appears to have never taken the next step in his machine elf reveries: actually attempting to do as they are instructing him. I have not found a single reference to Terence taking the machine elves' advice or instruction. He repeatedly tells us that the machine elves are instructing him to "not be amazed" and "just do it," meaning to sing an object into existence. Yet at virtually every recounting of his DMT experiences, he tells us that this he is dumbfound by this command. Odd, isn't it that he never attempts the one thing they tell him to do?"
I'm not arguing the validity or the nature of what terence is experiencing, since i can humbly admit that i don't know what happens on dmt, much less, what happens on other peoples dmt experiences who i've never even met. What I'm pointing out is that your claim that "he never tried to do what they were telling him to which shows hes blablabla" is incorrect, like many of your claims. There are numerous audio recordings-and mentions in his books- of terence describing producing this language which first "feels like a bubble grow inside of me". He talks about it in those goofy alien dreamtime videos on youtube and many others that i've heard before but not forget.. Mantid on erowid describes a similar experience with another person. He thought it was a thing that could be learned, and said you could sculp objects with your voice. He described this as a synesthesia-like transition of language processing from the auditory to the visionary centers and that it was a human ability just under the surface, and was related to how shamans alter the visions through sounds.
I'm not saying any of this is 'real', whatever the hell that means, and again i'm not arguing the true-ness of it all because i don't care. It could have been just his ego-projecting, fuck i don't know, how could anyone know! I'm just pointing out that you quoted out of context with disregard to what else he has said on the matter besides a short little youtube video. I don't care if your not happy with me not providing direct links. You can lookup alien dreamtime if you want or scour through the dozens of hours of audio links yourself, i have better things to do then scour hours of audio in order to argue properly with some charlatan.
MySmelf,wow, that feather podcast is interesting.. This is just hilarious. He basically says his theories contain no mysticism, or beliefs, or magic, or ego, just all truth ectect..and denounces terences and others experiences of entities and visions as "ego projections"..But then goes on to say how his experience with salvia brought him into direct communication with god, who he later said he communicated with as he was waving a feather around. He then claims that he was sweating 5meodmt, and that you could have collected the sweat, dried it out, and smoked it (this could be a joke, however i've not once heard any humor from him-or humility, for that matter- so i doubt it is).
How is this any less mystical or magical than a million stories just like it that have been heard for many thousands of years? And how come he doesn't once consider that none of this is "ego projection", or just an aspect of his own mind, or something else? Sounds like he was so open that his brain fell out.. So he had a mystical/psychedelic sober experience, or whatever you want to call it..woopty doo..tons of people here, and all throughout history, have had these. An example is shamans who have even been known to be able to smoke some mapacho, sing an icaro, and bring in the visions while 'sober'. this post-psychedelic contact with that state of mind doesn't mean they are necessarily talking to god, (take a look into how meta-programming works). He naively swallows without question the first idea that its god, and doesn't even consider any other possibilities..not even his favorite diagnosis; ego projection. And now he is trying to sell us 'confused egos' THE ANSWER from his god state of non-ego existance.. Give me a breakl..this sounds like a sheer sign of psychedelic-jesus-syndrome. Is it any coincidence that Martin then denounces everyone who doesn't agree with him as having big egos?
Thank you Uncle Knucles & antrocles. There is a sea of muck and emotionality here and every time any real focus or analysis is turned on Ball and his supporters, attempts are made at a change of direction/focus by them, and we frequently fall for it. AVdL, your two pages of worrying the money issue like a dog with a haunch was greatly appreciated - glad someone refused to let that one go. Both of you gentlemen's last two posts are like the Pharos Lighthouse in all of this.