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Dr. Martin Ball - Entheogenicist
- Thread starter Mitakuye Oyasin
- Start date
Cloud said:
Well, that and money... but you're clearly not prepared to respond to the question I've asked several times.
wow. just......wow....
mr. ball- i just wanted you to know the following:
i have flown all over the world working with proper indigenous shamans. from the church of peyote to native american sweat-lodge mushroom ceremonies to amazonian ayahuasca healings. this month i will go to live and learn from a rainforest tribe for two weeks straight. i have consumed more DMT (in ALL of it's forms) than you will most likely in your entire life. i have seen god, been god, and understood god. i have been awakened, healed, taught, nurtured and disciplined. but firstly and most significantly...
i have been humbled.....from the very beginning of my work. i have not read or heard a single thing you have ever written or orated. my first awareness of you has come through this thread. from what i have read, i am sincerely doubting that you have ever truly experienced DMT to any true extent. simply put, your inflexible stance speaks volumes about your true state of knowingness. after over 1,500 legitimate DMT breakthroughs the only thing i can say with certainty is that there is no 'knowing'. there is only a surrender that could be called an 'unknowingness'.
i have come back time after time with a better ability to surrender all that i 'know'. in return, DMT allows me the great gift of being everything for a fleeting moment. i come back to this dimension with a deepening understanding that i am simply everything. the field from which all things arise.
that you would expect everyone to consider for a moment that everything you say is 100% true, and then to not be willing to do the same for others who have had (no doubt) MORE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE THAN YOURSELF....well....i am sending you love my brother because it is obvious that you are truly unhappy. in the way the buddhist's define unhappiness as "a feeling of being trapped within yourself/your mind". you are trapped. if you cannot clearly see that everyone is an aspect of YOU and that we all are an aspect of something greater, then you are lost in a dark place of separateness that makes my heart break for you.
consider this for a moment- the buddha (someone who hopefully approached YOUR level of enlightenment) was not exalted for his attainment of enlightenment. he was, and remains who and what he is because of his Desana patihariya, or Miracle of Instruction. the unerring insight by which he knew just how to present his teaching best to whatever type of people he was addressing.
your ability to convey your wisdom to others. to have compassion for all beings and to teach (if you truly have something of undeniable value) in a way that ALL others are able to learn from. you, mr. ball seem to lack this ability. you are the worst kind of defensive. you stand on your self-made mountain top and refuse to even try to communicate with others who ask very clear and understandable questions.
things not specific enough for you? how about this?
1. how do you justify charging money for spiritual work? i have been doing this work for some time now....i have put over $10,000 into my healing room to make it absolutely righteous and comfortable. i spend HOURS with those who come to my space. my charge: $0. this is the deep work. the righteous, transform the consciousness of the world work. that you capitalize on the spiritually courageous...those who are waking up and taking the bold step into such profound territory....is pretty misguided. if you are the messiah and all-knowing individual (as in- separate) that you claim, would you not then see clearly how the growth and evolution of one is the growth and evolution of all? would you not do this work with joy and love for FREE???
2. how can you criticize ANYONE (terrence mckenna, many of US) who has had more experience with a thing (DMT) than you? did god single you out to receive the BIG message and we just get the post-its? are you jesus? sounds to me like you think you are..
3. authenticity without humility does NOT have much value according to THE UNIVERSE. truth recognizes it's interconnectedness with all things. to have arrogance is to separate oneself from all things. humility is a recognition of one's role as one facet of an infinite-faceted jewel. nothing has more relevence than anything else. humility only increases with wisdom. as you awaken, you don't become more separate, friend. you become more connected. this is how i ultimately know you to be a fraud. you do not speak or act as an enlightened being.
4. the more you try to explain things and claim to 'know' things, the more you out yourself as a charlatan. even your instruction to 'take a philosophy class to present better arguments'.....really? should i read up on theories and man-made mental formations to pass myself off as smart? how about i just communicate with humility the teachings and healings i receive from the medicine i take?
what do i know? nothing. that's what makes me wiser than you my friend.
another ego-based wanna-be cult-leader bites the dust. do not try to follow in the footsteps of the wise, mr. ball. rather- seek what they sought.
with the deepest love and gratitude
mr. ball- i just wanted you to know the following:
i have flown all over the world working with proper indigenous shamans. from the church of peyote to native american sweat-lodge mushroom ceremonies to amazonian ayahuasca healings. this month i will go to live and learn from a rainforest tribe for two weeks straight. i have consumed more DMT (in ALL of it's forms) than you will most likely in your entire life. i have seen god, been god, and understood god. i have been awakened, healed, taught, nurtured and disciplined. but firstly and most significantly...
i have been humbled.....from the very beginning of my work. i have not read or heard a single thing you have ever written or orated. my first awareness of you has come through this thread. from what i have read, i am sincerely doubting that you have ever truly experienced DMT to any true extent. simply put, your inflexible stance speaks volumes about your true state of knowingness. after over 1,500 legitimate DMT breakthroughs the only thing i can say with certainty is that there is no 'knowing'. there is only a surrender that could be called an 'unknowingness'.
i have come back time after time with a better ability to surrender all that i 'know'. in return, DMT allows me the great gift of being everything for a fleeting moment. i come back to this dimension with a deepening understanding that i am simply everything. the field from which all things arise.
that you would expect everyone to consider for a moment that everything you say is 100% true, and then to not be willing to do the same for others who have had (no doubt) MORE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE THAN YOURSELF....well....i am sending you love my brother because it is obvious that you are truly unhappy. in the way the buddhist's define unhappiness as "a feeling of being trapped within yourself/your mind". you are trapped. if you cannot clearly see that everyone is an aspect of YOU and that we all are an aspect of something greater, then you are lost in a dark place of separateness that makes my heart break for you.
consider this for a moment- the buddha (someone who hopefully approached YOUR level of enlightenment) was not exalted for his attainment of enlightenment. he was, and remains who and what he is because of his Desana patihariya, or Miracle of Instruction. the unerring insight by which he knew just how to present his teaching best to whatever type of people he was addressing.
your ability to convey your wisdom to others. to have compassion for all beings and to teach (if you truly have something of undeniable value) in a way that ALL others are able to learn from. you, mr. ball seem to lack this ability. you are the worst kind of defensive. you stand on your self-made mountain top and refuse to even try to communicate with others who ask very clear and understandable questions.
things not specific enough for you? how about this?
1. how do you justify charging money for spiritual work? i have been doing this work for some time now....i have put over $10,000 into my healing room to make it absolutely righteous and comfortable. i spend HOURS with those who come to my space. my charge: $0. this is the deep work. the righteous, transform the consciousness of the world work. that you capitalize on the spiritually courageous...those who are waking up and taking the bold step into such profound territory....is pretty misguided. if you are the messiah and all-knowing individual (as in- separate) that you claim, would you not then see clearly how the growth and evolution of one is the growth and evolution of all? would you not do this work with joy and love for FREE???
2. how can you criticize ANYONE (terrence mckenna, many of US) who has had more experience with a thing (DMT) than you? did god single you out to receive the BIG message and we just get the post-its? are you jesus? sounds to me like you think you are..
3. authenticity without humility does NOT have much value according to THE UNIVERSE. truth recognizes it's interconnectedness with all things. to have arrogance is to separate oneself from all things. humility is a recognition of one's role as one facet of an infinite-faceted jewel. nothing has more relevence than anything else. humility only increases with wisdom. as you awaken, you don't become more separate, friend. you become more connected. this is how i ultimately know you to be a fraud. you do not speak or act as an enlightened being.
4. the more you try to explain things and claim to 'know' things, the more you out yourself as a charlatan. even your instruction to 'take a philosophy class to present better arguments'.....really? should i read up on theories and man-made mental formations to pass myself off as smart? how about i just communicate with humility the teachings and healings i receive from the medicine i take?
what do i know? nothing. that's what makes me wiser than you my friend.
another ego-based wanna-be cult-leader bites the dust. do not try to follow in the footsteps of the wise, mr. ball. rather- seek what they sought.
with the deepest love and gratitude
PureMan
Rising Star
There is no real right or wrong, we all have a unique perspective of what is right or wrong. Just because it is wrong to you, doesn't make it wrong for everyone. Money is a form of energy yes, as is everything else. We all need to make money. If someone is willing to pay $200 for a guided experience with someone who knows what they are doing, is that wrong?
Are you saying that it is wrong for shamans to charge for their services? If they did it for free, they would have no way of sustaining themselves.. it is their profession. Everyone needs to make money somehow. I think an experienced healer has a right to charge if they want.
Are you saying that it is wrong for shamans to charge for their services? If they did it for free, they would have no way of sustaining themselves.. it is their profession. Everyone needs to make money somehow. I think an experienced healer has a right to charge if they want.
Mister_Niles
Esteemed member
Cloud said:
So if Mr. Ball has his way, all fiction of any sort would be... what? Destroyed? Because if it's around you, you must love it. Right? Any story, any creative endeavor that has any fantasy involved is inauthentic, therefore must be discarded. Cloud, you must change your avatar to a picture of your face. Unless the picture your avatar currently depicts is actually completely real and not fantastic at all. It looks like an ENHANCED fractal/space scene to me. I sure hope it's a PURE mathematical representation.
Electric.Sight
Rising Star
According to who? I can claim I'm a master of reality also, but that doesn't make it true to anyone else. I think it's pretty ignorant to claim to know the absolute truth when our species hasn't even physically traveled past the moon yet, let alone the endless numbers of unknown galaxies.
gibran2 said it pretty well:
Until we evolve past our human shells, I think many things are simply beyond us. Remember people used to believe human sacrifice was mandatory for a successful harvest. It's likely in 1000 years or so if humans are still around that all our ideas will seem just as far-fetched.gibran2 said:
I know my beliefs change constantly with all the new experiences and information I receive. What I think I know today can be entirely different tomorrow. How is Dr.Ball certain he's already experienced his soul awakening? He obviously hasn't experienced his whole life yet, suggesting he's still got at least something to learn. If he still has something to learn, then he can't possibly know the absolute truth yet.
This is taken from Dr.Ball's website:
That's nice and all, but I'm real curious; what is god, and why is Dr.Ball's assumption of God anymore accurate than the numerous religions already existing?
I'm not too familiar with Ball's work but after spending some time on his site, it appears that he's following the Scientology trend of "I know the absolute truth, with 3 easy payments of $59.99 you can know it too!" I'm not going to take this guy too seriously.
PureMan
Rising Star
antrocles said:
How can you criticize him without knowing his work? Martin is very experienced with DMT, 5-meo DMT, salvia, and other various entheogens. He holds a Ph.D in Religious Studies with an emphasis on Native American Traditions and Entheogenic Shamanism.. so he has some experience to back himself up.
Most of you are criticizing him without actually knowing any of his work.. And if you don't know his work, you have no right in criticizing him. (note: most of the criticizm on him only came out after he put out his take on McKenna, it caused A LOT of controversy.. but it was an obvious way to point out egos)
I am well aware that Martin isn't looked at very kindly around here.. But I truly think that he MIGHT ACTUALLY BE RIGHT.. so I will stick to my guns on this one. I definitely won't win any popularity contest though, thats for sure..
Cloud said:
I am saying that yes - within the context of the culture in which he exists - I believe unequivocally this to be 100% all the way wrong. If you travel into the Amazon basin to work with indigenous shaman, of course you are going to pay them. This is their culture and you are a tourist. The rules just operate differently. In this culture, we have a different name for those who earn such a living: we call them DRUG DEALERS, and rightfully so - because God don't be charging for contact.
If Dr. Ball must support himself while he undertakes the great work (as the rest of us manage to do), he can always haul his ass to Starbucks and prepare me a vanilla latte. I would have a great deal more respect for this than I do his current M.O.
hehehe....yeah...if you like that claptrap, you'll love some of his finer work:
THIS is the word of the Ball-
"I make egos terribly uncomfortable as they have difficulty distinguishing energetic certainty from arrogance. Especially in "new agey" circles, the values of "tolerance," "acceptance," "openness" have atrophied the ability of most to distinguish between competing claims about reality. There's this highly mistaken notion that "all perspectives are equally valid" and that anyone who says anything definitive is being intolerant. That's just not true, however, and people need to get over themselves if they actually want to deal with reality. If they want to play ego games, then sure, all perspectives are equally valid. But when it comes to reality, there is truth, and then there is illusion and projection and the two are clearly energetically distinct.
Personally, I don't pretend to hide behind false masks of "modesty" and "humility." I know I'm right and I'm not going to soften my position just so I'm not so shocking and confronting for people. People think that because I stand up for myself and what I've learned that I'm being arrogant and egotistical. Well, they're wrong, and I'm not, so I really don't care what they think.
The most important thing is that for individuals who are truly ready to face reality, I am providing a crystal clear map for how to do it and what that reality is without any beliefs, dogmas, speculations, or anything else. While I do care universally for all beings, I'm invested the most in those who are truly ready, and for them, I will be all that I can be as a beacon for reality. For confused egos, I will always be an eternal frustration. For those who are ready, they know I'm speaking the simple truth. Just the way things go.
And imagine, people are offended at my perspective! My perspective is that each and every one of those offended people is God (albeit likely very confused about that fact, just like Terence)! They can bitch and moan about that all they want, but I don't find anything offensive about that at all. If they want to grow up and take responsibility for themselves as an autonomous version of God, then I'm ready and willing to help them. If not - if they want to hold on to fairy tale beliefs and children's stories - then have fun! All that does is make one a very powerful, yet very confused, being."
nothing like a "my way or the highway" littany.... egads!! :shock:
L&G!!
THIS is the word of the Ball-
"I make egos terribly uncomfortable as they have difficulty distinguishing energetic certainty from arrogance. Especially in "new agey" circles, the values of "tolerance," "acceptance," "openness" have atrophied the ability of most to distinguish between competing claims about reality. There's this highly mistaken notion that "all perspectives are equally valid" and that anyone who says anything definitive is being intolerant. That's just not true, however, and people need to get over themselves if they actually want to deal with reality. If they want to play ego games, then sure, all perspectives are equally valid. But when it comes to reality, there is truth, and then there is illusion and projection and the two are clearly energetically distinct.
Personally, I don't pretend to hide behind false masks of "modesty" and "humility." I know I'm right and I'm not going to soften my position just so I'm not so shocking and confronting for people. People think that because I stand up for myself and what I've learned that I'm being arrogant and egotistical. Well, they're wrong, and I'm not, so I really don't care what they think.
The most important thing is that for individuals who are truly ready to face reality, I am providing a crystal clear map for how to do it and what that reality is without any beliefs, dogmas, speculations, or anything else. While I do care universally for all beings, I'm invested the most in those who are truly ready, and for them, I will be all that I can be as a beacon for reality. For confused egos, I will always be an eternal frustration. For those who are ready, they know I'm speaking the simple truth. Just the way things go.
And imagine, people are offended at my perspective! My perspective is that each and every one of those offended people is God (albeit likely very confused about that fact, just like Terence)! They can bitch and moan about that all they want, but I don't find anything offensive about that at all. If they want to grow up and take responsibility for themselves as an autonomous version of God, then I'm ready and willing to help them. If not - if they want to hold on to fairy tale beliefs and children's stories - then have fun! All that does is make one a very powerful, yet very confused, being."
nothing like a "my way or the highway" littany.... egads!! :shock:
L&G!!
I doubt Mr. Ball would agree with this statement.Cloud said:
Cloud, you are again using the "youre just being defensive because he criticised mckenna" argument, which isnt true for many of us (including me, Im no mckenna fan, just find some stuff he says interesting and find flaws in others, like with many people).
Also the fact that he has Ph.D in something doesnt necessarily mean his ideas are right. Also, notice its definitely no scientific theory, he doesnt answer any of the current challenges in physics, but just gives very general statements that have been said a billion times (such as "all life is energy,existence is alive, we are all one, etc"). And im talking about his own webpage, Im not gonna buy his book if thats what it takes to begin discussing with him
He says his theories are beyond belief but there's plenty of big suppositions and beliefs with no explanation (as pointed before, what does he mean by god and why is it any more plausible than other ideas?). He also talks about ego construct and makes afirmation such as that for sure there are no beings living in other dimensions, and I dont even need to point out that he has no way to prove this (not saying the opposite is true, we just dont know), so its just a belief from his side. Same for his ideas of "energetic alignment" which I still wait to see any proof, if he claims to not be based on any belief.
Lastly, as antrocles well pointed out, from his words he comes out as too arrogant, which while it doesnt make his theory more or less true (and hence I dont mean this as an ad hominen), it does seems to point out that no matter how much you know about this theory, its not necessarily really making any good to one's character, right? Personally I'd rather keep working on my own development the way I see fit and not buy into his theory if its gonna make me as arrogant and defensive as he seems to be. Or if its not the theory and his practices that are making him in such way but rather that he can't put this humbleness in practice, then again it at least shows me that this theory isnt good enough when it comes to helping a balanced personal development.
Lets see if he can answer some of these concerns...
Also the fact that he has Ph.D in something doesnt necessarily mean his ideas are right. Also, notice its definitely no scientific theory, he doesnt answer any of the current challenges in physics, but just gives very general statements that have been said a billion times (such as "all life is energy,existence is alive, we are all one, etc"). And im talking about his own webpage, Im not gonna buy his book if thats what it takes to begin discussing with him
He says his theories are beyond belief but there's plenty of big suppositions and beliefs with no explanation (as pointed before, what does he mean by god and why is it any more plausible than other ideas?). He also talks about ego construct and makes afirmation such as that for sure there are no beings living in other dimensions, and I dont even need to point out that he has no way to prove this (not saying the opposite is true, we just dont know), so its just a belief from his side. Same for his ideas of "energetic alignment" which I still wait to see any proof, if he claims to not be based on any belief.
Lastly, as antrocles well pointed out, from his words he comes out as too arrogant, which while it doesnt make his theory more or less true (and hence I dont mean this as an ad hominen), it does seems to point out that no matter how much you know about this theory, its not necessarily really making any good to one's character, right? Personally I'd rather keep working on my own development the way I see fit and not buy into his theory if its gonna make me as arrogant and defensive as he seems to be. Or if its not the theory and his practices that are making him in such way but rather that he can't put this humbleness in practice, then again it at least shows me that this theory isnt good enough when it comes to helping a balanced personal development.
Lets see if he can answer some of these concerns...
Cloud said:
Selling a book is one thing - and that is certainly a fair and honorable exchange which I doubt anyone here would find fault with. Same with his art and music sales (though why anyone, anywhere would choose to buy them is a monumental head scratcher...). BUT... charging $200 to get someone high and then break down the experience for them is another matter entirely. And if that doesn't run contrary to your own beliefs, I question whether this is a community in which you yourself belong.
Electric.Sight
Rising Star
People sell coffee to make lots of money, not to provide spiritual growth and understanding. It's this difference that makes it unacceptable to charge money for spiritual growth. Once money gets involved, it usually becomes the sole focus, thus defeating the purpose of the session entirely.
PureMan
Rising Star
I'm not trying to make enemies here. My perspective is that his explanation of reality makes sense. Period. He is confident in his perspective, and for good reason. I know his work, and I believe he very well could be right.. and if he is right, he has a right to be as confident as he is.
I liked endlessness' questions.. they actually touched on some good things.
I'm still waiting on a message back from him.
I liked endlessness' questions.. they actually touched on some good things.
I'm still waiting on a message back from him.
rolandrat
Rising Star
For what it is worth Mr Ball has at least the courage of his convictions and exposed himself and his ideas to public scrutiny. There's a lot of criticism directed at him in this forum that is anonymous and ad hominem, incognito personal attack and abuse. This carries little weight and reflects badly on the individuals from whom it originates. If they wish to honestly debate with Ball then they should declare their own identity, their qualifications from which we can assess their competence in making these judgements, they should then address directly the issues in which they are in disagreement. Otherwise the rhetoric is worthless hot air.
I've no particular interest in Ball's thesis either way, except for fair play and intelligent comment rather than the uninformed name calling some forum members are readily inclined to indulge in.
I've no particular interest in Ball's thesis either way, except for fair play and intelligent comment rather than the uninformed name calling some forum members are readily inclined to indulge in.
Cloud said:
really? think this through little brother....
if he is 'right', and he 'knows' what it all is about....don't you think he would act a bit differently? was jesus a close-minded capitalist? did the buddha work on a sliding scale? did shiva tell anyone they were not worth his response?
...and what else were these folks also alleged with being capable of? what else comes with such a supreme understanding?
....apparently, the ability to make a webpage and post youtube videos of your self-important homegrown yoga moves.
'his explanation of reality makes sense.'
:?
'he is confident in his perspective.'
:? :?:
'if he is right, he has a right to be as confident as he is.'
:shock:
this is simply not the way enlightenment works. not in my heart. this is a person who has studied books on philosphy and religion to an extent that he was ultimately given a piece of paper saying 'this dude has read a lot of books on philosophy and religion.'
a Phd in religious studies or philosophy is like saying the wind is your personal best friend.
all it tells me is that mr. ball is a cerebral being who has made it his personal focus to 'understand' the unknowable. he has pored over it, received degrees in it and then, when a true, genuine mystical experience finally befalls him, the first thing his brain back home wants to do is to 'understand' it, put it in a box, be the sole possessor of it and.....(fighting back gag reflex)....commodify it.
mr. ball is a know-nothing. the MEDICINE is the teacher. it is sad and a bit annoying when people get moved by a thing and then rather than simply allowing others to be moved in their own way by that thing, they have to try to place themselves in an exalted position of 'one who understands and can explain the thing'.
...you don't know any more than any of us in this mystery. sit down, shut up and listen. nobody appreciates someone talking during class. many of us are actually here to learn.
L&G!!
I have only one real criticism of Mr. Ball: he expresses his beliefs as fact. When we’re discussing the “ultimate” nature of reality, we only have belief. I touched on this in a previous post, and will expand on it a bit more here.
Depending on how reality is constructed - depending on the nature of “ultimate” reality - it might be forever unknowable to living human beings. I’ll give a few examples:
1 --- Reality is something like a computer simulation. If this is the case, there is no way to experience or know of anything outside of the simulation. (This would imply that psychedelic experiences are themselves part of the simulation.) A human description of reality would in fact be a description of the simulation. Although humans could have ideas and imagine what lies beyond, it would be “half-baked” speculation, regardless of how strongly the ideas resonate.
2 --- Reality is something like a dream. If this is the case, then there is no way to know the reality outside of the dream. A description of reality is in fact a description of a dream.
3 --- Reality is a dream within a dream within a dream, ad infinitum. There is no “ultimate” reality. A description of reality is in fact a description of one of infinitely many dreams within dreams.
4 --- Reality is solipsistic. You – your consciousness – is all that exists. Your consciousness has created what you call reality, so a description of reality is in fact a description of your own mind.
There are many other possibilities, and they all share a common feature: There may be certain aspects of reality that we as conscious living human beings contained within “the system” of reality simply cannot know.
If I were to blindfold you, take you to a windowless room in a faraway place, remove the blindfold, and ask you to describe the scenery outside of the room, how would you respond? Would you confidently provide a description and insist that your description is fact, or would you simply state “I don’t know”?
Depending on how reality is constructed - depending on the nature of “ultimate” reality - it might be forever unknowable to living human beings. I’ll give a few examples:
1 --- Reality is something like a computer simulation. If this is the case, there is no way to experience or know of anything outside of the simulation. (This would imply that psychedelic experiences are themselves part of the simulation.) A human description of reality would in fact be a description of the simulation. Although humans could have ideas and imagine what lies beyond, it would be “half-baked” speculation, regardless of how strongly the ideas resonate.
2 --- Reality is something like a dream. If this is the case, then there is no way to know the reality outside of the dream. A description of reality is in fact a description of a dream.
3 --- Reality is a dream within a dream within a dream, ad infinitum. There is no “ultimate” reality. A description of reality is in fact a description of one of infinitely many dreams within dreams.
4 --- Reality is solipsistic. You – your consciousness – is all that exists. Your consciousness has created what you call reality, so a description of reality is in fact a description of your own mind.
There are many other possibilities, and they all share a common feature: There may be certain aspects of reality that we as conscious living human beings contained within “the system” of reality simply cannot know.
If I were to blindfold you, take you to a windowless room in a faraway place, remove the blindfold, and ask you to describe the scenery outside of the room, how would you respond? Would you confidently provide a description and insist that your description is fact, or would you simply state “I don’t know”?