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Dr. Martin Ball - Entheogenicist

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rolandrat said:
For what it is worth Mr Ball has at least the courage of his convictions and exposed himself and his ideas to public scrutiny.
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It would be one thing if he would admit they're only idea's, but to go so far to say he's right and devoid of ego while Terrence was 100% full of ego is a little too far. I'm not very big on Mckenna either, but it appears to me Ball just wishes to 1up him and become a popular guru himself.
I see personal goals getting in the way of the message he's trying to portray. While some of his ideas may be interesting, he's going about presenting them in all the wrong ways.
I don't wish to debate with him or his idea's as it's clear it will have no effect. When someone becomes public like Ball, they need to expect criticism, be it constructive or simple name calling. While I see only the former bringing positive results, can't deny that both are bound to occur.
 
antrocles said:
this is simply not the way enlightenment works.
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Oh really! thanks for pointing that out. What makes your Way any better than his, what exactly
do you know about enlightenment?

...you don't know any more than any of us in this mystery. sit down, shut up and listen. nobody appreciates someone talking during class. many of us are actually here to learn.
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When you stop foaming at the mouth with a hatred for someone you don't know, perhaps
then you will be ready to learn something.
 
that reply was typical ball. dressed up, baseless, logical sounding strings of words that address and say basically nothing, other than i have THEE WAY, need no humility, or to deal with puny baseless humans (unless i get $). He says none of our comments addressed anything directly, when almost all of them DID..effectively sweeping it under the rug and promoting his 'i can save your confused ego' ball of crap.

Cloud said:
antrocles said:
i have not read or heard a single thing you have ever written or orated. my first awareness of you has come through this thread. from what i have read, i am sincerely doubting that you have ever truly experienced DMT to any true extent.
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How can you criticize him without knowing his work? Martin is very experienced with DMT, 5-meo DMT, salvia, and other various entheogens. He holds a Ph.D in Religious Studies with an emphasis on Native American Traditions and Entheogenic Shamanism.. so he has some experience to back himself up.

Most of you are criticizing him without actually knowing any of his work.. And if you don't know his work, you have no right in criticizing him. (note: most of the criticizm on him only came out after he put out his take on McKenna, it caused A LOT of controversy.. but it was an obvious way to point out egos)
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So we have no right to criticize him unless we buy his books or take his "one way or the highway road to reality; at only $199.95" :?

Most people commenting have read pages of what he's said just on this thread, and/or the old thread, and those long winded RS articles-and from any of these, his position came across pretty clearly. Who are you to say we have no right to respond to him?! Sorry, i don't think you two know the 'true full nature of reality', and i don't believe ball has no ego like he claims (that is the most revealing thing i've heard him say), and therefore i'm going to exercise my freedom to criticize what i read-regardless of if you enlightened beings say i have 'no right' from your 'true reality' perspective.

I think his words "confused egos have 'visions'" is enough to call into question his depth of experience with psychedelics. People with experiences that go beyond threshold doses know very well that visions are a very common characteristic of psychedelics..so to say that people who have visions are all just 'confused egos' is like spitting in the face of the knowledge of hundreds of generations of shamans across the world.

I've taken a look at his book about mushrooms, and i wasn't impressed in the least bit. it was basically nothing new, and came off like he hasn't gone very far at all with the little guys.

Also, his claim above that "i don't engage in speculation" is complete grandiose fantasy. Its utterly laughable that he claims to have no beliefs but yet BELIEVES he has the true map of reality, and the thoughts in his head are nothing but gods truth. Also, his "i analyzed everything terence said about dmt" is just utter lies. He analyzed two crappy videos, and drew wild conclusions from them which are shown to be wrong if you go into the other things terence said-which ball clearly ignored or didn't hear. id recommend he smokes a plump spliff of the good green and takes another look, but it seems his ego and motives are far past doing anything like that.

Of course you can keep telling yourself that all these emotionally charged comments with language that makes you uncomfortable are "just ego flack", as we all knew ball would say, and ignore them..or 'backlash since he likes 5meo and not terence'...as you keep claiming..even though what they address is pretty straight forward

If you can't see through this scam, then good luck to you brother. What the thinker thinks the prover proves. I hope you come to appreciate this mystery of being, begin carving your own path, and stop swallowing other peoples ideas as 'the whole truth and nothing but the truth'..it sounds very boring and dark age-ish.

as Ant said: the MEDICINE is the teacher
 
This thread is on fire and I neglected to check for about 12 hours, LOLZ.

To Martin Ball:

Your reply was hilarious. It proved a number of the points many of us were making. Your ego is legion.

Pardon my bloated ego . . . really? You don't remember me? LOLZ! I sure SAW you for the first time in my life, after being snowed by all your writings and internet works up to that point. So did my husband.

Really? Do you really want me to be specific? Really? It was not too long ago . . . . You behaved exactly as I described and Hal Lucius Nation was there backing you up and stealing heavily from the famous Terence McKenna podcast on The Philosopher's Stone. BOTH of you were very obviously on the "Free Love" path that weekend. Maybe because I was older, had a man with me, wasn't making goo-goo eyes at you, didn't ask you for 5-meo-DMT, interacted more heavily with Nation and didn't try to schedule a session that you do not remember. Maybe it's because you meet and snow so many people.

What you do scares me. It is a giant step back. It is immoral. It is also currently illegal, regardless if you or I feel that it should be or not.

Are you offering 5-meo-DMT sessions for a fee now? It used to just be salvia divinorum?

Are you? If so, you are no longer initiating and/or facilitating as many of us do or have done. You have opened a business. I had a conversation with a friend about you and he jokingly said, "Ha! Insight wars!" I said, "No way. It's simpler than that. This guy has customers and followers. I have friends, compatriots and sounding boards. I hope to always keep it that way for myself!"

How can you call yourself an expert and authentic while charging a fee for administering a Schedule I substance (1986 Analog Act when applied aggressively) without a clinical license? This is currently illegal and rubs me the wrong way. Scary to think of any self-professed "expert" hanging up a (n internet) shingle, and going into the kind of psychological, psychodynamic, traumatic and transference-rich territories that these materials open up wide. I actually DO believe in authentic (he he there's that word again) psychedelic and pscholytic therapy, as offered by licensed, trained professionals who also have some shamanic/mystical training and have self-explored the territory. People like you put my dream further and further back from the possibilities of reality every single day.
 
rolandrat said:
For what it is worth Mr Ball has at least the courage of his convictions and exposed himself and his ideas to public scrutiny. There's a lot of criticism directed at him in this forum that is anonymous and ad hominem, incognito personal attack and abuse. This carries little weight and reflects badly on the individuals from whom it originates. If they wish to honestly debate with Ball then they should declare their own identity, their qualifications from which we can assess their competence in making these judgements, they should then address directly the issues in which they are in disagreement. Otherwise the rhetoric is worthless hot air.

I've no particular interest in Ball's thesis either way, except for fair play and intelligent comment rather than the uninformed name calling some forum members are readily inclined to indulge in.
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My response to this, rolandrat from the EU, is as follows:

Of course Mr. Ball has exposed himself and his ideas to public scrutiny. He is chasing after celebrity; public scrutiny's kind of the point. This is what he signed on for the day he turned in his hat and apron at Starbucks, and embarked on the path to tell us what's up and lead us all into enlightenment. Public figures take some flack. It's part of the deal, I suppose. I feel no more compelled to genuflect than I would to Miley Cyrus.

With regard to my own and others' anonymity, this hardly requires explanation. I am not interested in making my livelihood from drugs in any capacity. I have no desire to be famous, or quoted, or invited into the VIP tent. I have no qualifications whatsoever. I'm just fascinated by DMT. What we do is against the law (sadly, but yes it is true), and so I must decline to broadcast my secret identity to the world. Mr. Ball, however, has been invited here on more than one occasion, to engage in actual conversation and become a part of the community. He doesn't seem very interested, of course, and the reason is fairly obvious: Mr. Ball does not engage. He instructs. He elucidates. He educates.

I think for my part, I've been pretty specific with the nature of my beefs. I've thrown in some rhetoric (as is my way), and some name calling just for good measure. If it offends your delicate sensibilities, you're probably not alone - but I don't like profiteering where divinity is concerned, and I don't like dogma in any form. He who says I'm The Way, just ain't the way at all. No one has a monopoly on truth, and he who claims to can blow me.
 
Uncle Knucles said:
My response to this, rolandrat from the EU, is as follows:
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...and my response is: Ball is not going to show up here to debate with someone hiding
behind a veil of invisibility, for whatever reason it is cowardly, if you can't meet him
face to face in the forum you should keep your personal attacks to yourself. That's
too bad because it pretty much negates everything else you have to say.




typo edit
 
rolandrat said:
Uncle Knucles said:
My response to this, rolandrat from the EU, is as follows:
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...and my response is: Ball is not going to show up here to debate with someone hiding
behind a veil of invisibility, for whatever reason it is cowardly, if you can't meet him
face to face in the forum you should keep your personal attacks to yourself. That's
too bad because it pretty much negates everything else you have to say.
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This is completely ridiculous! Anonymity doesn't negate anything. Our words still exist, they come from real people and you don't need to know who they are.

Art is right, ANYONE claiming to own the ABSOLUTE TRUTH is full of shit!
 
MySmelf said:
This is completely ridiculous! Anonymity doesn't negate anything. Our words still exist, they come from real people and you don't need to know who they are.
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Yes you do if you are going to have a dialogue with someone in public who's proposing to
bring your reputation into disrepute, you want to know who they are and what their
agenda is. If you are not prepared to put your name to something don't expect anyone to
pay any attention to what you say, you may have a lot of words but you are not credible.
Ball should stay away from the forum, there are too many rabid dogs on the loose.
 
I guess this shizzle goes to show that beautiful drugs do not a beautiful person make. Kinda depressing really, but to be expected I suppose. We're a weird, primitive species that knows a lot less than we think we know sometimes.
 
rolandrat said:
MySmelf said:
This is completely ridiculous! Anonymity doesn't negate anything. Our words still exist, they come from real people and you don't need to know who they are.
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Yes you do if you are going to have a dialogue with someone in public who's proposing to
bring your reputation into disrepute, you want to know who they are and what their
agenda is. If you are not prepared to put your name to something don't expect anyone to
pay any attention to what you say, you may have a lot of words but you are not credible.
Ball should stay away from the forum, there are too many rabid dogs on the loose.
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Ahm what ? So you are saying Martin Ball cant have a discussion with us because we dont reveal our identities here? What sense does that make? Do you think none of the discussions had in an internet forum are valid just because people are using screen names?

Of course we can have meaningful discussions regardless of whether we share our registered birth name or not. Arguments are still arguments regardless of the official identity of who says it, no? And if not, why are you in this forum discussing at all?

and are you speaking for Martin Ball or are you just giving your own opinion or imagining what would you feel if you were him? Regarding the agenda, well isnt it obvious, we are members of a psychedelic dedicated forum and we work hard to try to spread good reliable information about these substances as well as pass a rightful attitude in relation to these substances but also life in general. So when a persons start spreading the idea that he Knows It All and uses psychedelic experiences as the "excuse" and base for their ideas, dont you think its pretty reasonable that the people in this forum will question it, and that if the questions are well made, a profitable discussion can be had from it?
 
rolandrat said:
Yes you do if you are going to have a dialogue with someone in public who's proposing to
bring your reputation into disrepute, you want to know who they are and what their
agenda is. If you are not prepared to put your name to something don't expect anyone to
pay any attention to what you say, you may have a lot of words but you are not credible.
Ball should stay away from the forum, there are too many rabid dogs on the loose.
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Do you mean kind of like James Oroc, DM Turner, Zoe7, Hal Lucious Nation (that's subtle), and every other psychedelic pundit out there who prefers to write (or blog or whatever the fuck ever) under an assumed identity, rather than volunteering for jail?

Those of us not seeking personal attention have no real reason to out ourselves. Your comments are really too preposterous to even warrant a serious response. I'll try to ignore them from here on in - until you contribute something of substance.
 
rolandrat, what do you want? it just seems like you're being contentious and confrontational. Your first posts seemed to have a point, that one could argue without attack, but it seems you're just falling for the same thing. These kind of posts dont seem productive at all, will probably just result in more bad feelings. Why dont you practice what you preach and argue with a calm mind and not just being sarcastic and attacking?
 
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