Enlightenment: a state, or a path?

[dragonrider]

I sometimes wonder if maybe in modern society, we're focussed too much on who we are, instead of on what we do. It seems to me that many people want to be a succesfull person, but often they don't realy want to actually do something that is succesfull. Or at least it seems that their desire to be succesfull, is greater than their desire to do something succesfull. For instance, they want to be president of the united states, but they don't realy want to do the things a president is supposed to do.

When it comes to spirituality, there's a simmilar issue going on. Many people want to be enlighted, and they sometimes hope that psychedelics can aid in achieving that goal. But often people do seem to believe that enlightenment is something you can simply achieve, and once you got there, you no longer have to work at it. Once you have achieved enlightenment, you have become enlightened and you no longer need to achieve anything else. As if enlightenment is a permanent thing, as if it cannot fade.

But isn't that just a silly fantasy? Isn't life, except a great and wonderfull gift, an ongoing struggle as well? And isn't that the way it's supposed to be, actually?

Could this focus on being instead of on doing, be one of the reasons for all the sexual harrasment stuff that recently came to the surface in the whole metoo thing? Could it be that sometimes a person achieves something, and instead of thinking "i have partaken in a succesfull endevour", they think "i'm a succesfull person now", and therefore they believe they have a different kind of status from then on?
If you see succes, or enlightenment, as a status thing instead of looking at it as partaking in something or doing something, you may be more susceptible to believing that you deserve special privileges, or that other peoples lives have less value than yours.

 

[Espurrr]

hello
i had a question, where does all this achieve talk come from ?
who said, you achieve enlightenment ?
who said, its something you "get" ?
also , another question, who said enlightenment is success ?
i believe if we look at things the way they are, success is success, enlightenment is enlightenment
who exactly is the maker of these associations that cloud the EYE ?
WHERE, does the desire to be enlightened come from?... is it that, one believes they are lacking?
if ALL is illusion, isn't that belief an illusion too?
if you aim, you have already missed the point

 

[○]

And quoted from 'Radical Zen and the sayings of Joshu' :d

A monk asked, "When I wish to become a Buddha - what then?"

Joshu said, "You have set yourself quite a task, haven't you?"

The monk said, "When there is no effort - what then?" Joshu said, "Then you are a Buddha already."

 

[hug46]

A monk asked, "When I wish to become a Buddha - what then?"

Joshu said, "You have set yourself quite a task, haven't you?"

The monk said, "When there is no effort - what then?" Joshu said, "Then you are a Buddha already."

Wow! I've spent last 50 years making very little effort to do anything. I always thought it's because i am a lazy ingrate. But it turns out that i am a Bhudda. It feels really good to be finally vindicated.

PS, you can't get any useful answers here. The truly enlightened won't make the effort needed to put finger to keyboard to give the appropriate reply.

 

[AikyO]

I am enlightenment/enlightened/mad-narcissistic-fascist-person/whatever and now I don't have to care about it anymore. I don't think it such a big deal, like, who cares (?) Become the Sun, the Moon and the leaves that roll over waves from clouds unseen, sing the song the thousand winds have taught you. I just like to feel sacredness. I think it's weird thing to strive to achieve some sort of higher state, or to make some sort of big deal about it - though I can like the joke - but just go out and live the rest of your life naked in nature, that's daily enlightenment for ya'

Boo! L I G H T B U L B

 

[RhythmSpring]

Enlightenment is a direction, like "up."

 

[dragonrider]

hello
i had a question, where does all this achieve talk come from ?
who said, you achieve enlightenment ?
who said, its something you "get" ?
also , another question, who said enlightenment is success ?
i believe if we look at things the way they are, success is success, enlightenment is enlightenment
who exactly is the maker of these associations that cloud the EYE ?
WHERE, does the desire to be enlightened come from?... is it that, one believes they are lacking?
if ALL is illusion, isn't that belief an illusion too?
if you aim, you have already missed the point

Well, i know some people. And their views on spirituality are quite odd, though not rare, i suppose.
They have taken me to lectures from buddhist monks, reiki healers or other folks a couple of times. And after a while it became clear to me that enlightenment realy is a status thing to them.
Not very different from what many call "celebrity culture".

The idea that you have all these people, and then for some people....the clouds will part, just for them. The sun will shine, just for them. They are the special people. And if you try hard enough (buy the books, visit the lectures, etc.) you can become enlightened too. And if you're enlightened enough, you won't get cancer, for instance.
The people who get cancer, are just ordinary folks. They didn't try hard enough.

I sometimes get the idea that people are obsessed with status. And that this obsession even permeates our sense of spirituality. Wich i think is toxic.

Many young people want to be famous these days. They don't want to be realy good at something, they just want to be famous.

And if you look at this weinstein case....the guy apparently hired a dozen private detectives to follow his victims, to see if they would sue him. :shock:
But apparently...no one knew about him being a serial rapist?!? :?: I find that implausible. I rather think that we're all just being brainwashed all the time with the belief that some people are above everybody else, that some people are entitled to behave like they want to, that some people deserve special privileges.

I think this belief permeates everything these days. Maybe it always has. It is a bogus belief, but if enough people believe it hard enough, it becomes true. They make it true. So then, a moviestar cán get away with everything.
Or a budhist priest. Or a spiritual "healer".

 

[Espurrr]

hello again
i too am familiar with the "culture" you've been introduced to, but thats all it is, culture
let that go, those people are spinning in circles, playing games of distraction
when one talks about enlightenment, what they really mean is whatever is going on right now
are we aware of whats going on? or just partly , ignoring a part, avoiding another, deluding yet another part, what remains ?
they say wisdom of this yogi and that yogi, like wisdom (dharma/deen) is "something" to posses and have, yet, isn't wisdom just "how it all works" ?
one who has observed with clarity (yaqeen) knows how it all works, because it is "right" in front of them, isn't it ?
why spend the energy and focus on the bogus that is this culture? who cares if some dude is making claims of grandeur ?
in fact, doesn't all this systematic mind-masturbatory behavior FEED on the attention it gets?
enlightenment is a matter of the individual cultivating the qualities of the ALL(ah) (maybe u like it that way, maybe not, call it anything)
and that is just a private work, it happens to you, by you, for you, so whats all this teaching and special people fuss ? (espurr does not know, it seems to him that these are exciting games)
so , answering the question of is enlightenment real
one could simply say , define enlightenment, and all fails then so what are we asking? what is real ?

 

[DutchEnergySystem]

Hi :d

so there are a couple of handfull people in the world who became 'enlightenent' caused by one extreme event where their life was in danger or caused by psychedelics.

They started writing books and posting videos about what it is like to be enlightenend and although most they write is correct, it creates a desire to millions of people to achieve that one state of enlightenment. And people like Eckhart Tolle sadly promote it to be in a state of pure bliss. To be at the end of the road. You have finally made it.

In fact in his first book he said that when he tried to kill himself he became suddenly enlightenend and he sat on a bench in a park for a couple of weeks just looking how beautifull everything is. No thoughts, no desires, everything was bliss.

My humble opinion is that his mind created a sort of lobotomie because of the trauma he suffered.

But think about this: if every desire is an ego based concept, would becomming enlightenend be completely not exciting at all?
The answer is yes.

Everybody who knows that enlightenment means to be the 'awareness' outside the ego is enlightenend. (awareness is the best word I can find to desribe the non dualistic). And thats the only thing you need to know

What did you expect it would be? total bliss, extacy, ... . Of course not because these are al ego based constructions.

So millions of people have reached the inner knowing what enlightenment is and a handfull of people tell them that they need to become this and that.

you stay in the now you are enlightenend. It takes about 0.1 second. Do it now and congrats you are enlightenend. But then a thought apears. You are still enlightenend. Then you think: 'oh no this is not correct, enlightenent should be different'. You are still enlightenend.

Al your thought, emotions, desires, etc. rise in this universe like the sun rises in the sky. You may think these emotions are bad or good but thats what you make from it. If you just accept every feeling, every event, every emotion, every confusion, every mistake then you are enlightenend. Wishing that an event, emotion,.. did'nt happen is as stupid as yelling to the sun that you want it to stop rising.

Real zen teachers write no books or pick every word very carefully.

I believe a book how to become enlightend should have 2 sentences. Know there is a ego and an 'awareness'. Stop trying to become enlightend.

Face it, every system in our body that works perfect is a system that we dont have to think about: breathing, pumpin of the heart, etc.

So if you want enlightenment to be perfect you just have to go on with your life and stop wondering everytime if you are doing the right thing to be elightenent.

Then you might say: but hey then I just live my live like before. nothing happend.
answer: thats because your 'awareness' can never be conceived through your ego. You are outside of it. You live and everytime you question about if you are still enlightenend you are trying to control this with your ego.

enlightenment will never satisfy your ego and as long as you are pursuing this you will keep creating conflict

 

[DmnStr8]

I wanted to answer this in a personal way. I could point at enlightened ones and their quotes. We could all talk about how others have achieved this state of consciousness. I wanted to mention what it means to me, just me. I don't know if my idea about enlightenment would apply to anyone else but me. I don't think I could ever explain it thoroughly with our limited language. It is like trying to explain a DMT journey or a dream.

Enlightenment to me means to just be. To let go into the stream of life and watch every moment exactly as it is. To watch every snap shot of life in the present moment and pull a connection out of it all. Remaining in the present moment as much as possible without the ego pulling us to and fro, tinting and hueing the experience of life. It is to awake from the dream of the ego. To realize what the ego is, what it's purpose is and how it can help us learn. I think we are here to learn, a classroom of sorts. To realize it is a classroom is awakening. Enlightenment is just another word. As soon as you measure anything with words it becomes something that is outside enlightenment. If there is no measurement, there will remain the infinite being.

State or Path? Neither and both.

 

[Eaglepath]

I had this discussion with..hmm.. what to call him.. a Yoga spiritual teacher guru something...
He sad that when you reach enlightenment it is like the head explodes and you understand everything at once at that feeling/state does not then go away.. (I do not believe this at all)

I like a story about a monk that walk gentle through the forest towards the temple.. before he is about to start climbing the stairs he put down his backpack and take off his clothes and change into the robe.. he walk up the stair into the monastary and reaching enlightenment.. then he walk down the stairs and change clothes takes his backpack and go back to life and starts over again until next time he comes back to the stairs to climb again..

 

[Hector]

I think anyone who says they are enlightened is not actually enlightened because you would have to have an ego to say that. I think we all achieved enlightenment a very long time ago, as time has no beginning. It is like we are all Buddha's. We are all immortals as we are like emanations of the one supreme being! Because originally there was only a single point of awareness and this awareness expanded exponentially into billions upon billions of souls. And with our imaginations worlds were made, playing out every conceivable reality for our own growth and enjoyment. And eventually we will all return to the source, that single point of pure conscious energy which birthed the universe. I don't think modern physics could even dispute that. It is analogous to the big bang and big crunch. Mahayana Buddhism would not disagree with what I am saying. In fact, enlightenment is like a Jewel hidden away in our clothing. We have this wonderful treasure but are just not aware of it. Perhaps the ego construct and time itself is illusory. That does not diminish it's realness in this physical realm though.

I am not a Buddhist but I resonate with many of it's ideas surrounding the transcendence of the ego into a state of formlessness. I think it is far too nihilistic and contradictory for my taste. Vows of celibacy seem weird to me. And the idea that life is suffering is just depressing to me. Life can be awesome.

I think it is true that westerners often pursue material success and get overly attached to worldly possessions and social status. I certainly cannot fully absolve myself of these cravings. I desire money and resources. I think desiring enough to meet ones own needs is good. Excessive greed does not bring happiness though and studies prove this. I don't think entitlement or elitism is necessarily a bad thing either to a degree. For instance, I think people are entitled to a reasonable shelter and healthy food. It's gluttony which is the problem. It is the nature of primates to stockpile as many resources as possible and to have fame. Even fame comes with many drawbacks though. We must transcend these primitive instincts. We have large enough brains. I think income equality is responsible for much of the world's sufferings. We need to move towards becoming an egalitarian civilization which operates in a sustainable way and in harmony with nature. It is these western ideologies which prioritize monetary success and fame above all which are so destructive. The current US president is the epitome of this cr*p. I am quite the idealist. Went on a little of a rant there he.