Pancho said:
The realization that "I" does not exist. That's the beginning at least...
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enlightenment
- Thread starter RayOfLight
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The realization that "I" does not exist. That's the beginning at least...
Elf Machine
Rising Star
Does anyone know anyone that's enlightenend? Anyone in the world? What makes them enlightened? How do we know the Buddha was enlightenend? Or Jesus or any historical spiritual teacher...myth? We are all on a path of spiritual growth, but is there an endpoint in our lifetime called "enlightenment"? I believe not. I do believe we have many tools though to help us grow spiritually, some better than others. A catalyst for change is important. One can spend YEARS meditating and change/grow less than what 1 good breath of DMT will do. The thing is...a good dose of psychedelics is so shocking that it works very well.
Kenneth Folk.
Duncan and Alan.
Shenzen Young.
Adyashanti.
I think a lot more people have actually stabilized classical enlightenment, but it has been so mythologized/mystified that it's not recognized.
If you're spending years meditating, and not getting solid results, you're doing it wrong.
Duncan and Alan.
Shenzen Young.
Adyashanti.
I think a lot more people have actually stabilized classical enlightenment, but it has been so mythologized/mystified that it's not recognized.
If you're spending years meditating, and not getting solid results, you're doing it wrong.
MooshyPeaches
Rising Star
I think as long as you are trying to 'attain' enlightenment your still trapped in a separate mindset instead of oneness.
somebody who walks around going, 'I am enlightened' is most likely not enlightened.
Its a change of perspective. Its about the realization that you always were enlightened to 'become' enlightened, you just had to notice. and EVERYTHING changes, yet NOTHING changes. Absolutely paradoxical.
Complete surrender to just existence. Yet we define ourselves through the only thing that does not exist; thoughts, to think that we ACTUALLY exist. This energy that is our bodies is built to experience through our senses that is the experience, to just be.
and after it happens, you go back to chopping wood and carrying water, doing our daily human thing, because that's what the harmony of the universe is doing, you just realize your a part of the flow, but now you get to yield to your own current.
edit- and listening to all these wisend people and spiritual teachers is great, however, your only ever going to get knowledge from them, not understanding. They try to communicate the understanding, but we only have words to communicate with, therefore, we receive only knowledge and definitions. The answers of enlightenment cannot come from out there, be it literature or wise people, the understanding must be manifest from within.
yet drugs... you BE the experience. so they can be a totally different teacher. 'I' think they may be the best tool, at least, for one like me.
somebody who walks around going, 'I am enlightened' is most likely not enlightened.
Its a change of perspective. Its about the realization that you always were enlightened to 'become' enlightened, you just had to notice. and EVERYTHING changes, yet NOTHING changes. Absolutely paradoxical.
Complete surrender to just existence. Yet we define ourselves through the only thing that does not exist; thoughts, to think that we ACTUALLY exist. This energy that is our bodies is built to experience through our senses that is the experience, to just be.
and after it happens, you go back to chopping wood and carrying water, doing our daily human thing, because that's what the harmony of the universe is doing, you just realize your a part of the flow, but now you get to yield to your own current.
edit- and listening to all these wisend people and spiritual teachers is great, however, your only ever going to get knowledge from them, not understanding. They try to communicate the understanding, but we only have words to communicate with, therefore, we receive only knowledge and definitions. The answers of enlightenment cannot come from out there, be it literature or wise people, the understanding must be manifest from within.
yet drugs... you BE the experience. so they can be a totally different teacher. 'I' think they may be the best tool, at least, for one like me.
cellux - thanks so much for that! I had heard of Mooji in passing a few times but never followed up.
MooshyPeaches - Why would you assume that one cannot affirm their experience of enlightenment just because they've had it? How else would others know that it was an authentic possibility? How else could you critically engage with it and find others who have experienced it themselves?
I have to vehemently disagree with you regarding engaging wisdom texts and talks, and preferring drugs. It sounds like you're interpreting enlightenment as a specific state. It appears to me that the vast majority of people who engage with the wisdom plants are not on a path towards enlightenment. Also, I'm aware of far more enlightened individuals who have not used drugs, or gave up their drugs use long before their experience of enlightenment. Without a number of supplementary practices, already core to the wisdom traditions, entheogens likely will only bring you passing altered states, no matter how divine.
MooshyPeaches - Why would you assume that one cannot affirm their experience of enlightenment just because they've had it? How else would others know that it was an authentic possibility? How else could you critically engage with it and find others who have experienced it themselves?
I have to vehemently disagree with you regarding engaging wisdom texts and talks, and preferring drugs. It sounds like you're interpreting enlightenment as a specific state. It appears to me that the vast majority of people who engage with the wisdom plants are not on a path towards enlightenment. Also, I'm aware of far more enlightened individuals who have not used drugs, or gave up their drugs use long before their experience of enlightenment. Without a number of supplementary practices, already core to the wisdom traditions, entheogens likely will only bring you passing altered states, no matter how divine.
I perceive enlightenment as a path not a destination. All who take the journey are enlightened, more so each day. There is in my mind not finish line. I do not believe any drug can be a shortcut to greater being. It is merely a tool that amplifies observations and gives a new perspective. If one does not have other experiences the pull from on these journeys than the results will be shallow.
Keep in mind that it's all in your mind. What is enlightenment? For you it can be nothing but a thought, a concept, something you either are or aren't. But who says who's enlightened and who's not? You do. Only you can. You are the one who either accepts that someone is enlightened, or isn't. You are the one who thinks of enlightenment as something you qualify for, or not. You are the one. It has always been you and it will always be you. Just keep in mind when considering whether someone is enlightened or not, you're only referencing your own ideas and getting a conclusion reflected back to you. The whole thing is a circle of thoughts going on in your own head. Just saying.... try not to take your own ideas too seriously. You can't know anything objectively, only the circle of thought you've spent your entire life with.
This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.
This post isn't directed at anyone in particular.
zubidlo
Rising Star
I my humble opinion nobody reached to enlightenment (f*ck, I hate that word, lets call it freedom) by listening to someone or by sharing a mind concepts with others. There is only one way : dedicated practice. Everyday. As long as possible. Even when ego screams 'What you are doing! It's boring!', one should ignore mind and just continue. And satori (enlightenment) is not a process it's a moment. You practice and practice and than one day, one particular moment you die for this world and burst to tears in ecstasy. And human being is born. And than one dwells free in timeless space, with total control of ones mind not fighting his place on this planet, but being a part of it. Freedom. No entheogen can deliver a freedom from prison of ones mind permanently. Humans tried to digest probably every plant on Earth already and didn't find it yet.:d And 'Enlightened gurus' who speak and speak and speak? Who cares? All one needs to know is 'what is the best practice for me?'. All one needs is the practice.
Regards.
Regards.
Elf Machine said:
Hey now Elf Machine,
I believe we can all agree that "enlightenment" is a human concept. A frozen moment within the expanse of individuated mind, mirrored by subjective projections. That being said, it is a concept based on said individual mind, fully merging with the force of Universal consciousness or Oneness. Dying, from the point of our ego-self but being reborn in terms of the Soul's long awaited awakening. Traditional spiritual practices and/or the use of entheogens, gives us the glimpse of this unified field of consciousness. I do not believe this level of being can be reached without eclipsing with the clear light of the God-head, though. As our crowns open in receptivity to this great light, we experience the unfoldment of the thousand pedaled lotus. What fellow travelers refer to as, "The Chrysanthemum" or "The Grid". It is this light of lights, which draws us into self-destruction and ego death. Washes us into infinity and shatters our subjective fixations. "Let there be Light."
From my windowsill, it's basically a matter of shifting one's attention. Either through traditional meditative practice, psychedelics (or both). Not to mention the phenomenon of spontaneous enlightenment! We all know that this very moment is all that exists. The NOW is eternal and within it's depths, lies the throne of Divinity. It is we, who dream of unenlightenment, who weave this universe about us. At the central point, where we are One, we each recall our own Divinity and our innate Godhood/Goddess-hood. After much effort to unlearn the finite rules to this dream, I have found that this is our natural state and we are never truly unenlightened. That was just the dream. At the heart of each individuated soul, is The One. All is One. An indivisible field of pure consciousness. Right? Since our united singular self or Uni-Self, is truly the only being... we dream different illusions about our existence, YET, remain always in the light of the Infinite indivisibility. So, we are all "enlightened". It seems as if it is really a degree of saturation, rather, knowing it and seeing it, which is often a temporary state of mind (no mind). The I that is we, always has been, always will be... Indivisible Light. When all is light, no darkness exists, so all is Void of duality and beyond the grasp of the finite mind. So, we can't speak of it anyway.
Still, we do speak and sing and cry out of this miracle. We can never really put it into words. True? Again, it's a matter of shifting one's focus towards THAT, which is beyond description. The very term "enlightened" is linked to the level or frequency of THAT indivisible field or plane, of undifferentiated consciousness. Merging with the Light of one's own being, so to speak. God reaching to know God, only to find the very paradox is an illusion and Void. Sacred Medicines allow for a temporary degree of this deep awareness, especially DMT containing plants and/or extracted DMT crystals, Magic Mushrooms, Sacred Cacti and LSD-25. I personally feel that the state of "enlightenment", is like an internal eclipse of the ego and the Uni-Self. God becoming aware of actually being GOD. Remembering the internal ONENESS and the causal desire... to exist. The universal desire to love. Yes?
Human beings merge into oneness and return from the merging, into the mirage of duality and it's many forms and myriad polarities. Back on the earthly plane, the world, both feet on the ground and looking above for the truth. Have been since we rose from the instinctual mind, to the mind of the explorer and seeker. Many souls have been enlightened, some temporary and some forevermore. Or so we accept in good faith. In my 33 years of intense searching (itself an ironic journey, as I am ONE on every step of the way), I have met some very, very high human beings. Some wore robes, some were disguised as regular ordinary folks. Some were colored in rainbows and some in plain clothing. So often, these are passing, momentary refractions. The innocent smile on a babies face, the song of birds singing, the light reflecting off another entity's iris, the sound of unbridled joy and enrapturement, the feeling of unconditional love, the isolated self gazing at the infinity of the cosmos... each sings praises to the Divine Being.
The eclipsing of ego and God, is our destiny, for we are all one being (whose heart is pure love). Again, I feel that I/you/we have realized that the quintessence of "enlightenment" is a still moment of attunement/merging. From the moment Spirit desired to exist and the Word (the voice of our universe) caused the motion through sonic vibration, from which generates the friction of duality and so sparked the Light of creation. In every moment, for all eternity, as it has always been. We are all going in-and-out of this frequency/level of consciousness, disguised as individuated selves, alone and searching for ourselves, within the mirage of myriad egos.
As far as the concept of completely enlightened human beings, walking this earth of ours... I have yet to meet any who are as advanced as Gautama the Buddha, Lao Tzu, Zoroaster, Jesus the Christ or Sri Babaji Maharaj (and many others). This degree of attunement is quite rare and connected to cycles of our natural, collective human evolution. In fact, even 100 years ago, we had many advanced spiritual souls amongst us, so many of them will be incarnating again, for this great awakening our ours. Folks like Sri Aurobindo, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Paramahansa Yogananda, Suzuki Roshi, Mother Teressa, etc... Now, I can only express what I have experienced and I have not touched energies with any on such level, though many were/are advanced souls. I'll qualify that by ascribing this assessment to the physical plane of existence. OK?
We are moving into a point in the illusion of time and space, where traditional Masters and Prophets are no longer needed. Our great collective enlightenment is our next evolutionary state of physical incarnation, on Earth. I suspect we are a bit far off from that level but we are approaching a wonderful gateway into our collective awakening towards this undifferentiated field of Omni-consciousness. The Light of the Absolute Self (our natural center and being).
This is the paradox. We are always enlightened, regardless of our personal dreams and illusions. No beginning and no ending. Ironically, the concept of enlightenment is another illusion and the corpse of THAT which is the living Spirit. The mind so feverishly grasps to encapsulate such an experience of "enlightenment" within the finite realm of logic. It cannot be done. And yes, psychedelics are a rocket ship into this Omnipotent awakening. Essentially, a very foolish form of entertainment and a very dangerous joyride to take. The price we pay is our own subjectivity and the cost is ego death. And without regular spiritual practice? Well, all chemicals wear off, so the samadhi/satori/enlightenment... fades with the recrystallization of the finite self. We return to assimilate the lessons we receive. Ideally, of course, as the mind is a devilish tyrant and it takes much training to surrender to the path of Oneness. Sacred medicine alone, can never lead to complete salvation and unending wakefulness. The Medicine Path of the Wounded Healer, in conjunction with the steady footsteps of the sober, practicing seeker, unify to shatter our fixed perception of reality... and awaken us to our genuine source and being, The One Clear Light. A Sacred Journey, for sure!!! :shock:
Peace, Love & Light, Rising Spirit
Apoc said:
It's cool to make these assertions, but I disagree with both. Concepts can be communicated at a verbal level while the realization the signifier enlightenment refers to cannot.Rising Spirit said:
For what it's worth, Rising Spirit, when you speak to quality of Soul and experiences of the Godhead, I believe that you're speaking to a different developmental line than that of fundamental Liberation.
Be cool, be well.
Edit: This speaks very well to my thoughts on the matter.
ragabr said:
How can you disagree that everything is happening in your own head? I'm not the one reading this right now, you are. What are you disagreeing with? You say you disagree with my statement, but all I'm sayin is you're the one who looked at my statement, you're the one who took it to mean something, and you're the one who disagreed with its supposed meaning. See what I'm sayin?
Rising Spirit said:
I find these statements interesting. You say you have never met any who are as advanced as those guys.... but you haven't even met those guys either. What do you think makes Lao Tzu, or Zoroaster "advanced", as you say? How do you know what degree of attunement they had? And attunement to what?
ragabr said:
Please forgive my wording, as they are just WORDS... and words cannot convey the reality of this lofty concept. They aim to capture the state of spiritual awakening, in this specific case, which is only attained through a transcendental experience, where by ego death takes place and the Omni-self is realized as the only reality. I never said "enlightenment" was a merely a concept, rather, the concept of "enlightenment" is quite another thing, from the state of spiritual awakening, which is true enlightenment. Sure, it's semantically different but you and I both know, the living process of "enlightenment" is something that needs to be directly experienced. As concepts go, enlightenment is about as sophisticated and refined a one as we can think up. Don't get me wrong, as I agree with much of what you are expressing, as well.
Now, the IDEA of enlightenment is measurable from the subjective stance that (within the realm of duality) there is the real and unreal, the truth and the illusion, the finite ego and infinite God. While inter-phasing with a frequency we might choose to call, "enlightenment", the self or witness dissolves into the blinding radiance of the Light of lights; shatters individuated self into a billion points of light refraction (each connected with the totality, yet, each free of boundaries or form). In silent attunement, the Soul evaporates into the emptiness of the Void and merges with THAT, which is beyond the boundaries of conception. So, I was echoing a Zen koan I read once,
"If you meet the Buddha, on the road to enlightenment, kill him."
Meaning? Quite simply, our ideas and concepts of "enlightenment" must also be surrendered into the Void, as any thought, however sublime, keeps the subjective mind alive (as a witness) and prevents the direct experience of that very enlightenment. :idea: Even the thought of GOD is a barrier to union with GOD, as it perpetuates subjectivity, so too the reference point of subject and object or a fixed point of association between this and that. Even an "enlightened" ego must cease it's identification to form. Far beyond any thought, is the level or frequency whereby union with the Absolute takes place. As we all have experienced in peak moments of spiritual awareness. Yes?
Apoc said:
Oops... my bad. True enough. I don't even know who I am, so I can hardly claim knowledge of another, however revered they have become to our fellow sentient beings. Still, meeting another life form or being, can take place on many different levels. From higher planes of consciousness, those untouched by the illusory reality of time, soul-to-soul communications do take place. Most of us visiting this site have encountered entities, beings, elves, angels, demons, Sages, Gods & Goddesses, etc... Right?
In this manner, I have met these great souls. No, not whilst being tied in a straight jacket. I refer to moments caught in rapture and transcendental eclipsing. Both, with and without the aid of Sacred Medicine. I have seen the radiance of their spiritual auras and felt the power of their consciousness. Yes, it is my mirage and I interpret such measurements, based on my own dream of reality. Perhaps I could have chosen the word, "impact" instead of attunement? The impact I felt from their presence was far more powerful than the impact I have felt from any currently incarnated peoples. I've met a lot of gurus and teachers in my lifetime (especially in the 70's and 80's). Avatars are on an entirely unique plane of consciousness and there are none who are known publicly, on this level, although many of their disciples preach that they are.
I see it like this... the subjective self can measure the phenomenon of light with the physical eyes. True? The sun is brighter than a light-bulb or a flame. Same with individuated souls, no matter how evolved and "enlightened". As I honestly said, whoever I really am, is that I have not met them. From my vantage point, that is. OK? For all I know, thousands of very high Mahavatars are amongst us (quietly emanating spiritual energies). I guess I am referring to the public Masters who walk amongst us. Those who choose to teach and make a noise. Hermits and silent sages have been with us since our species rose from the sea, so you might understand what I mean by "public Masters", as those who come back to Earth, from the merging with Oneness and preach a doctrine or religious philosophy?
My persoanl spiritual guru and friend, Swami Satchidananda, was a beautiful person but he was not a Mahavatar. While we are all God, there are degrees of this state of being. Or rather, there appear to be degrees, as everyhting within the mind is illusory. In this Light, my teacher was not the equal of the Mahavatars. I aspire to be as high and possess the spiritual clarity he did. I mean no disrespect to Swamiji, that I feel he is not on the same level and Buddha and Christ. Ultimately, we all are one singular being. I/you/we are all God. Rising Spirit was merely speaking about the vast difference in evolutionary degrees, from an advanced Sage and a true Avatar. As far as your question, "And attunement to what?" I implied an attunement to what we conceive of as God or the indivisible Oneness. Not the concept of God... but the living state of consciousness whereby one awakens into being God. Being the indivisible field of unified energy, the Universal Self, the One.
After re-reading the words these fingers have typed, I too, feel they are somewhat flighty and opinionated. It's largely conceptual, I confess. I don't know anything for a certainty but I have had experiences which have awakened a certain kind of knowing.
Like Socrates said, "My knowledge comes from an unknowing."
The mind is born of illusion, even as the soul is born of truth. All is One, for all is God. Truly, this is ALL I really know. That's all. :lol:
Peace, Love & Light, Rising Spirit
Rising Spirit said:
Much love, Rising Spirit. I felt a similar comedic aspect to everything I had written to you and Apoc as well but a more skillful way to pass the ball back didn't reveal itself.
Rising Spirit said:
I love this thought here and embrace it dearly. I think a very many, if not most of the concepts we've inherited regarding enlightenment have problematic aspects and should be challenged. Thus the frustration that arises with so many conversations that try to reduce it to a mental concept or a particular, passing state of mind.
Of course my separating the indwelling of God from enlightenment is a conceptual distinction. It's apparent usefulness to me, allows me to honor the realization of individuals like Adi Da and Andrew Cohen, who have damaged so many lives, without needing to excuse their actions as misunderstood. Even Buddha had to be convinced to let women join the sangha, and Meister Eckhart is widely considered and anti-Semite.
Really there is no route or path that can ever bring about Nirvana.
Going into a trip, there is an identity there going to get something, even if just an experience, even if what your trying to get is the experience of losing everything your still trying to get something...
"I obtained not the least thing from complete, unexcelled enlightenment and that is why it is called complete, unexcelled enlightenment" Buddha
Going into a trip, there is an identity there going to get something, even if just an experience, even if what your trying to get is the experience of losing everything your still trying to get something...
"I obtained not the least thing from complete, unexcelled enlightenment and that is why it is called complete, unexcelled enlightenment" Buddha
MooshyPeaches
Rising Star
just being here within awareness, watching this drama of life unfold
how can we truly communicate something formless, and is all in ALL, with words??
getting so detailed about something so simple.. we can never completely understand it in the sense of truly knowing, and we can't dissect into understanding by trying to give it form through thought and language.
what a tricky thing. only if we are being it, living it, can we see it all. dayum
how can we truly communicate something formless, and is all in ALL, with words??
getting so detailed about something so simple.. we can never completely understand it in the sense of truly knowing, and we can't dissect into understanding by trying to give it form through thought and language.
what a tricky thing. only if we are being it, living it, can we see it all. dayum