Entheogens and the subconscious (therapeutic use)

[turmeric]

Since seeing this I feel a little more then intrigued:

I would go aya for learning and understanding while I would go dimitri for other reasons like frontal un-learning and integrating not-understanding.

I suppose this subject was already discussed on Nexus one way or another (or in many ways), but I'm very curious how you would put entheogens in order of preference for dealing with deep-rooted subconscious beliefs or resolving unconscious issues (safely).

In other words, since use of psychedelics is a sort of an "uninvasive surgery" (by actually changing, re-wiring and re-distributing some of the physical brain material)... which often "brings about lasting positive behavioral changes" - the question is: which psychedelic would be (A) most gentle and (B) most effective in dealing with un-learning and life integration (in general) - or a combination of both. Of course, taken into consideration the length (or persistence) of use.

I'm trying to map my tools better, clarify pros and cons and hear some opinions. And as the title implies, the question is not really about experience and more experience, as many find super-fun (nothing wrong with that), but actually alleviating suffering most effectively.

Merci.

 

[Intezam]

....re-distributing some of the physical brain material :?
How...? Do you mean data, memories, traumatic things, social programming....?

 

[brilliantlydim]

Hmmmm, I only have experience with 3 psychs FB DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and mushrooms.

I would say mushrooms are the most gentle, and 5-MeO the most powerful for un-learning. That being said, they all require a person who is wanting to make the change, and definitely require much work before and after.

I work with FB DMT more often than mushrooms because the amount of time required makes it much more feasible. When I first started using the spice, I didn't think I was getting much usefulness out of it, but as things progress it seems that the crazy experience of hyperspace does indeed hold some value when it comes to personal change, it just doesn't seem to be easy to decipher, at least for me. Perhaps it had a lot to do with my mindset. My first experiences with it, I went in with plans to be an objective observer and just let the experience be. I recently have changed my mindset to that of it being a dive into my subconscious, and instead of seeing the space as somewhere foreign and alien, seeing it as hidden parts of myself. I am attempting to take a more active roll in my trips from now on so far it seems to be the way to go when looking to make changes with in. The last few trips I could physically see how my attention and awareness alter the landscape of hyperspace in real time.

I've only worked with 5-MeO once, and that was the substance that basically showed me that I had the power to change myself. I imagine the rest of my life will be integration of that experience.

Mushrooms are great, gentle and forgiving. I find I have a lot of emotional realizations on mushrooms often pertaining to relationships, love, fears, happiness etc. I find I can be completely scared out of my wits in ways I could never have imagined, and at the same time be completely understanding and accepting of those feelings. The next minute feel extreme happiness and or contentment. Sometimes all of them at the same time, its really weird haha.

 

[turmeric]

....re-distributing some of the physical brain material :?
How...? Do you mean data, memories, traumatic things, social programming....?

No, I mean quite literally. Psilocybin appears to affect the structure of the amygdala, whose enlargement is generally correlated with increased levels of fear and aggression, and on the other hand ayahuasca provokes gradual thinning in the posterior cingulate cortex (PCC), a key node of the default mode network. I suppose there could be found more examples. If there is a re-wiring of the way brain works physical changes would follow, especially with cognitive A-bombs (such as we all like here). Of course, a neuroscientist could make better assumptions, I'm only having fun here.
But also yes, all the things you mention would (IMO) cause permanent changes in the prefrontal cortex.

Mushrooms are great, gentle and forgiving. I find I have a lot of emotional realizations on mushrooms often pertaining to relationships, love, fears, happiness etc. I find I can be completely scared out of my wits in ways I could never have imagined, and at the same time be completely understanding and accepting of those feelings. The next minute feel extreme happiness and or contentment. Sometimes all of them at the same time, its really weird haha.

Me too. And I have complete trust in mushrooms, so much that I fed two small bags of magic truffles to my parents who never took any "substance". And they appreciated it.

 

[fathomlessness]

Me too. And I have complete trust in mushrooms, so much that I fed two small bags of magic truffles to my parents who never took any "substance". And they appreciated it.

Without them knowing? I have thought about that. I can't say it is the most ethical thing but it is only a threshold dose and how else are they going to take it?

No, I mean quite literally. Psilocybin appears to affect the structure of the amygdala, whose enlargement is generally correlated with increased levels of fear and aggression,

I guess that is why you see people freak out sometimes and get fearful. I also read that when the vmPFC is down from psilocin the brains starts to wonder what the hell is going on and that is responsible for the anxiety come up on mushrooms. After the peak the activity could work more in to different areas like temporal lobes and enhance emotional response. It is strange that a lot of users report bad emotions and nausea coming up and then when they peak they feel positive.

 

[fathomlessness]

Mushrooms are great, gentle and forgiving. I find I have a lot of emotional realizations on mushrooms often pertaining to relationships, love, fears, happiness etc. I find I can be completely scared out of my wits in ways I could never have imagined, and at the same time be completely understanding and accepting of those feelings. The next minute feel extreme happiness and or contentment. Sometimes all of them at the same time, its really weird haha.

Interesting, thanks.:thumb_up: I remember seeing the cover of the truffles pouch in Amsterdam saying they "enhance your sensitivity" and sounds similar to how you get scared or weirded out by simple things or get more emotional about things.

I would say that a low dose trip would feel what it is like to have the emotions of a woman, if you up the dose it might be similar to the emotions of her on her period. Either way men's emotions are definitely repressed, perhaps biologically or perhaps by societal conditioning.

 

[turmeric]

Me too. And I have complete trust in mushrooms, so much that I fed two small bags of magic truffles to my parents who never took any "substance". And they appreciated it.

Without them knowing? I have thought about that. I can't say it is the most ethical thing but it is only a threshold dose and how else are they going to take it?

:d
Oh, not at all. You see, we have this thing called trust. They knew about the study because I told them all about it. And about the use of psilocybes by ancient cultures in order to heal and learn.

EDIT: fathomlessness, (didn't mean to be rude and) I understand now why you asked: they never took anything before.

 

[turmeric]

There was some talk previously about spice-acid mix that makes an interesting effect. In my case it did. Does anyone else have good experience in resolving issues like that?

Please correct me if I'm wrong or too daring. The way I see it (disregarding the overlaps between the two):

1. Acid has an amazing way of unfolding a great deal of the subconscious and mobilising a larger portion of the brain.

LSD is a catalyst or amplifier of mental processes. If properly used it could become something like the microscope or telescope of psychiatry. - S. Grof

2. Aya or mushrooms can catalyse education of the soul.

 

[brilliantlydim]

Mushrooms are great, gentle and forgiving. I find I have a lot of emotional realizations on mushrooms often pertaining to relationships, love, fears, happiness etc. I find I can be completely scared out of my wits in ways I could never have imagined, and at the same time be completely understanding and accepting of those feelings. The next minute feel extreme happiness and or contentment. Sometimes all of them at the same time, its really weird haha.

Interesting, thanks.:thumb_up: I remember seeing the cover of the truffles pouch in Amsterdam saying they "enhance your sensitivity" and sounds similar to how you get scared or weirded out by simple things or get more emotional about things.

I would say that a low dose trip would feel what it is like to have the emotions of a woman, if you up the dose it might be similar to the emotions of her on her period. Either way men's emotions are definitely repressed, perhaps biologically or perhaps by societal conditioning.

Actually I never thought about it like that but I tend to agree with that generalization somewhat after sifting through my personal experiences. For instance shrooms definitely "hit" my GF quite a bit harder than myself. Sometimes it almost feels we are closer to the same "level" of feeling comprehension when I am on a dose of shrooms and she is not on any. For what ever reason, it seems to me that women tend to have more of a connection to the states of being that psychedelics seem to take us, or me at least. I think I have heard this some where before now that I think about it and some had mention they believe that is why men tend be drawn more frequently to psychedelic use.

 

[brilliantlydim]

Me too. And I have complete trust in mushrooms, so much that I fed two small bags of magic truffles to my parents who never took any "substance". And they appreciated it.

Without them knowing? I have thought about that. I can't say it is the most ethical thing but it is only a threshold dose and how else are they going to take it?

:d
Oh, not at all. You see, we have this thing called trust. They knew about the study because I told them all about it. And about the use of psilocybes by ancient cultures in order to heal and learn.

EDIT: fathomlessness, (didn't mean to be rude and) I understand now why you asked: they never took anything before.

Although I would never seriously contemplate surprise dosing anyone because it is just wrong and dangerous in so many ways, I can't say I haven't thought about what it would be like for someone that had no experience with psychedelics. Especially something bigger than a threshold dose. I'm sure it would be pretty scary for most people, but I can't help but wonder what would go through their minds during the whole experience and how they would think about it after.

 

[turmeric]

My dad was a little frightened at the beginning and then started smiling and making fun with me, texting my family. I was trying to point out at this majestic large tree in the park but he just kept rambling.
And my mom was just blissful the whole time. It felt so natural.
They're both in their mid 50s.
Then two weeks later I called my mom and she told me that she had this fog in her mind and now it was completely gone ever since those mushrooms. Then she said it might be a good idea to do it every 6 months. Maybe they should try some acid, I have to ask them. That would be maybe too intensive (and long).
They worked hard all their life and I think they deserve to at least try (maybe in the summer, outside in the nature). 50-100u? I do 400u, that's my reference. Just reading Grof's LSD therapy book, I think they dosed from 30 up to 300u.
This is pretty strange for me as I was the problem child, and now I'm reliable. :d

 

[brilliantlydim]

My dad was a little frightened at the beginning and then started smiling and making fun with me, texting my family. I was trying to point out at this majestic large tree in the park but he just kept rambling.
And my mom was just blissful the whole time. It felt so natural.
They're both in their mid 50s.
Then two weeks later I called my mom and she told me that she had this fog in her mind and now it was completely gone ever since those mushrooms. Then she said it might be a good idea to do it every 6 months. Maybe they should try some acid, I have to ask them. That would be maybe too intensive (and long).
They worked hard all their life and I think they deserve to at least try (maybe in the summer, outside in the nature). 50-100u? I do 400u, that's my reference. Just reading Grof's LSD therapy book, I think they dosed from 30 up to 300u.
This is pretty strange for me as I was the problem child, and now I'm reliable. :d

Thats pretty cool to have that kind of relationship with your parents.

I met a girl last year that was from somewhere in Europe and she was telling me how her whole family would go mushroom picking and do the together, brother, mom and dad, like it was no big deal. I thought that was so weird, but in a good way. I've talked with my mom about my psychedelic use and she was even a little interested herself, but even that still feels weird for me. My relationship with my father has never been good and barely talk to him about anything in my life let alone taboo subjects.

 

[turmeric]

My relationship with my father has never been good and barely talk to him about anything in my life let alone taboo subjects.

I used to have a terrible relationship with my dad. Now we're friends.
Check this out, I found it some time ago.