ethanol causes lengthy and intense flashback

[puzz769]

SWIM was pretty drunk Friday night, and the next morning, while pretty much sober decided to consume 100 measured mg of elf spice (it's also possible that the spice was consumed that night, after the bar - memory is hazy). SWIM remembers little from the trip and got a ride back to his parents house the next day. That evening he drank 5 gin and tonics (not so much by his standards) and started to trip hard again, like a 40 mg trip and that lasted until he went to sleep. He then woke up on Sunday morning and it kept going until about noon before it started to subside. Suffice it to say the experience was extremely disconcerting.

Has anyone experienced anything like that?

 

[voyaj]

Rule number one, respect the spice. One hundred mg is a massive dose to an already massive experience. Drinking that much before consuming it should be avoided. It is not an experience to play around with, especially with that sort of dose, hope SWIM is doing OK. Just know that he will be fine. Keep the head up and think positive thoughts avoid alcohol. Do something calming and positive, jog, go on a hike, meditate, pray whatever it is he does and eat healthy foods.

I am newb as well, pretty sure someone will have a better answer. Was it vaped?

 

[anrchy]

Yes please don't Vape 100mg. If done properly you would black out, or have an intense trip you might not enjoy.

I'm still having slight integration issues with a properly dosed 50mg Vape. And it's been about a month.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

When you say "ingested" this I am assuming you are taking an MAOI along with it since you aren't smoking it. If you ingest the DMT coupled with alcohol it doesn't have any affect beyond that of the alcohol. It really isn't orally active without an MAOI. While I have taken similar actions, I have to stress, THIS IS A BAD IDEA. Most of the hard liquors are aged in wood, including good gin. Only the cheapest either isn't aged or isn't aged very long. The point here is that drinking aged alcohol and taking an MAOI runs the risk of tyramine poisoning. You do not want this.

If you mean that you smoked strait Spice without an MAOI, then it is a little different. I have done this as well, but I have learned I would just rather not. There are a lot of different ways that your tryp and your body and brain can be affected. I find, in general, alcohol has a much more negative affect on the mind, spirit, and body. After all, it is a depressant. On the other hand, the Spice, at least for me, has an almost opposite effect. When taking them both, there is a major conflict and it can surface in the tryp as well.

As for vaporizing 100mg, well, it won't kill you (and just to note, I don't black out on this much vapor). Your greatest risk is the psychological impact that it might have, if you don't just black out. The LD50 is 110 mg/kg inter muscular injection in mice (sorry, we don't know what it is for humans). This means that if mice and humans have similar reactions then a 185 lb man like myself would have a 50% chance of dying if I injected approximately 9 1/4 GRAMS directly into muscle. As far as smoking or ingesting is concerned, assuming a proper tyramine free diet, I have pushed the envelope far beyond what most people would accept and certainly far enough to be completely convinced that I am physically incapable of killing myself via overdose on the stuff.

But again, as far as the experience is concerned, most people need to heed caution because of the possible psychological impact. To add, a person is much more likely to fall in a pool filled with water and drown while on this than they are of actually dying from an overdose. Again, I stress, assuming that you have a tyramine free diet. If you eat a log of pepperoni and drink a few beers just before dosing with an MAOI you should go to the hospital because otherwise, you could very well die from tyramine poisoning.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Alcohol is metabolized producing a betacarboline byproduct if I am not mistaken...
Increased Norharman levels are an example you can google

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

Alcohol is metabolized producing a betacarboline byproduct if I am not mistaken...

wouldn't the DMT already have been metabolized at that point?

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Hard to say, a lot of MAO function takes place in the liver, which could have been dealing with the metabolites of alcohol.

There are a few scattered reports of similar delayed activity, very rare, this is the third one I have read of.

It would be great to have more details.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

Alcohol is metabolized producing a betacarboline byproduct if I am not mistaken...
Increased Norharman levels are an example you can google

From what I've read on this subject, "elevated levels" of two or three different beta carbolines can sometimes be detected during a hangover. As for Norharman, it seems that chronic alcoholics with strong addictions do tend to have higher than normal levels and maintain them. In either situation, there is no evidence that would even suggest that it would be enough to inhibit the mono amine oxidase. If it did, a lot of people would die when they hit the hair of the dog and drank that 6 pack at 7 am. And keep in mind it is the inhibition of MAO that allows DMT to be orally active.

Anyway, I have experimented with this but to no significant results and a lot of waste. But I felt my curiosity had to be resolved. The closest I have come to this was with 4 ounces of 151 proof Bacardi and way more DMT than anyone would generally consider attempting for such a frivolous curiosity. But even after the fact, I believe the effects I felt were from the alcohol and if any of the effects were actually from the DMT, then it was because the alcohol may have assisted in quicker absorption of massive amounts of DMT. But any DMT affects either subsided very quickly or were overpowered by the effects of the alcohol.

Anyway, my main point is that alcohol, especially wine and beer, is often high in tyramines. Hard liquor that is aged in wood, while not as high as fruit and yeast liquor, is still high enough in tyramines to be concerned about. Usually, the clear liquor is safer, such as high proof corn and potato whiskey, but if they are aged in wood then you should still use caution. And the darker whiskey that is aged in wood and other grain whiskey, such as rye or bourbon, as well as fruit whiskey, such as brandy, should be avoided when on an MAOI due to the risk of tyramine poisoning.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Why would inhibition of MAO in in general cause tyramine related hypertensive crisis? If it doesn't with normal doses of ayahuasca, peganum and tyramine, and it doesn't, then why would it be an issue?

I don't believe that all of the activity of dmt when you take harmala alkaloids is due to mao inhibition either. Betacarbolines have complex action and do many things, that is another topic though.

The day after I drink a lot DMT goes further and is more active for me on a weight for weight basis, I do think this relates to the betacarboline metabolites of alcohol, but do not think this has anything to do with MAO inhibition.

Tyramine poisoning with peganum and ayahuasca, harmine, harmaline etc, is not a real risk and has not even been documented. These alkaloids are selective reversible inhibitors of MAO, meaning that unless you take an absurdly high dose MAO still functions on tyramine, because the enzyme has a higher affinity for it than for the betacarbolines.

Basically the whole ayahuasca MAOI diet is untrue with regard to harmala alkaloids and based on studies of irreversible non-selective inhibitors of MAO, and in that case tyramine can kill you if you are not careful, but that is not a risk with harmala alkaloids despite the widespread bad information on this topic.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

Why would inhibition of MAO in in general cause tyramine related hypertensive crisis? If it doesn't with normal doses of ayahuasca, peganum and tyramine, and it doesn't, then why would it be an issue?

Tyramine is metabolized by MAO and it most certainly has the potential to cause a hypertensive crises, even with normal doses. From experience, I can tell you this. The first time I ate peperoni shortly after coming off of a Spice exploration I noticed I began getting hot flashes. This prompted me to get a a blood pressure monitor and test it out. After a later exploration I watched carefully and when eating cheddar and peperoni my systolic pressure went up almost 40 points and my diastolic pressure rose by almost 15 points. While this was not a hypertensive crisis, it was most certainly something to be concerned about. This was fairly consistent 3 following times. But to add to your defense, I will note that I believe that a resistance is built up through regular use because when the same experiment was repeated over a year later, during which I had regular huasca sessions, the results were significantly different and neither my systolic nor diastolic pressure rose more than a couple points if at all. To add, once again, every individual person is different and it may have a different affect on you than on your neighbor.

I don't believe that all of the activity of dmt when you take harmala alkaloids is due to mao inhibition either. Betacarbolines have complex action and do many things, that is another topic though.

I agree. There is definitely a difference when using harmala compared to caapi.

The day after I drink a lot DMT goes further and is more active for me on a weight for weight basis, I do think this relates to the betacarboline metabolites of alcohol, but do not think this has anything to do with MAO inhibition.

I understand this. It does with me as well. However, it is very similar, though not identical, to the experience I have when I go on a complete food & liquid fast beforehand. I just believe it is unlikely that it is because of betacarbolines as studies very clearly show that they are only barely detectable sometimes during a hangover and in chronic habitual alcoholics. I believe a more likely cause is because alcohol dehydrates the body and strips it of a lot of vitamins and nutrients. While what studies that have be done would contradict your betacarboline theory, I do not think there is enough evidence or studies done to support either of our theories at this point.

Tyramine poisoning with peganum and ayahuasca, harmine, harmaline etc, is not a real risk and has not even been documented. These alkaloids are selective reversible inhibitors of MAO, meaning that unless you take an absurdly high dose MAO still functions on tyramine, because the enzyme has a higher affinity for it than for the betacarbolines.

Basically the whole ayahuasca MAOI diet is untrue with regard to harmala alkaloids and based on studies of irreversible non-selective inhibitors of MAO, and in that case tyramine can kill you if you are not careful, but that is not a risk with harmala alkaloids despite the widespread bad information on this topic.

This last part concerns me. It is not my intent to insult you, so please do not take it as such. But it is foolish to think this way and reckless to convince others to believe this. You may be young and healthy, but for someone who is older and may already have high blood pressure problems it could be deadly. Granted, MAOI-A is much safer than MAOI-B, they still present the risk, just for a shorter amount of time. And there have been medical cases with peganum harmala and dangerously elevated blood pressure. Kansas City, Missouri.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Minute amounts of betacarbolines are known to potentials psychedelic effects, including on the mg scale of ingestion, which likely causes only traces to reach the brain.

Irreversible MAOIs were the first antidepressants to be discovered, but they fell out of favour with the advent of the discovery of safer antidepressants; these newer antidepressant drug classes have fewer adverse effects, especially the dangerous irreversible MAOI food interaction with tyramine, sometimes referred to as the 'cheese syndrome', which leads to dangerous hypertension. However, reversible MAOIs lack these hypertensive adverse effects.[25] Moclobemide, was the first reversible inhibitor of MAO-A to enter widespread clinical practice; its reversible inhibitory features give it a number of advantages over the older irreversible MAO inhibitors.[26]

That is from the Wikipedia page on MAO.

The tyramine thing is not medically or scientifically supported with Harmala alkaloids.

When I wrote that harmala alkaloids have complex action, I was referring to them in general, the alkaloids in caapi are called harmala alkaloids, harmine is a harmala alkaloid etc. harmine has very complex action, it affects GABA, glutamic acid and other things. I believe that the effects of potentiation are due to the glutamic acid related effects. I have written quite a bit on this topic and how it relates to ayahuasca additives as well elsewhere. Needless to say, Ott reported potentiation of effects of tryptamines using 5mg harmine. In the Amazon very small doses are also reported to have been taken as hunting aids, because of specific effects. I have also used slivers of caapi for this same effect, about the volume to two wooden matches, and have given this to friends as well who report specific effects. My point is that trace amounts of betacarbolines may be plenty.

I can't find cases of problems with high blood pressure for harmala alkaloids that do not involve irresponsible doses. I read one case with a ridiculous dose, it might have been that Kansas City thing you mention.

The levels of norharman and harman in nonalcoholics were unchanged after a load with ethanol (1 g/kg body weight). The norharman levels of the alcoholics were significantly higher than that of the nonalcoholic controls (99.5 +/- 26.6 pg/ml vs. 26.9 +/- 10.7 pg/ml; p less than 0.001) and did not change significantly during a 3-week detoxication period. In the subgroup of alcoholics with delirium or hallucinosis, a slight increase of norharman during detoxication could be detected while in alcoholics with vegetative withdrawal symptoms norharman levels dropped slightly over time (p = 0.07)

Norharman levels were tripled in alcoholics.
Moreover in those with delirium and hallucinations during withdraws a slight increase of norharman was observed, possibly indicating a correlation between the delirium and hallucinations and the betacarboline.
Considering that betacarbolines are considered to have effects at trace levels, and there are numerous studies for this, this is still significant, but this is only plasma levels, what about the brain, could the molecules be perhaps sequestered there? Perhaps:

Two classes of amine-aldehyde adducts, the tetrahydroisoquinoline (TIQ) and beta-carboline (THBC) compounds, have been implicated in the mechanism in the brain underlying the addictive drinking of alcohol. One part of this review focuses on the large amount of evidence unequivocally demonstrating not only the corporeal synthesis of the TIQs and THBCs but their sequestration in brain tissue as well. Experimental studies published recently have revealed that exposure to alcohol enhances markedly the endogenous formation of condensation products. Apart from their multiple neuropharmacological actions, certain adducts when delivered directly into the brain of either the rat or monkey, to circumvent the brain's blood-barrier system, can evoke an intense and dose-dependent increase in the voluntary drinking of solutions of alcohol even in noxious concentrations

Here is a quote from an abstract that says that THBC is sequestered in the brain. That alcohol enhances the formation of this markedly.

So yeah in summary:
The tyramine thing is not true, nor is the ayahuasca diet one designed to prevent hypertension, RIMAs are rather safe and this has been rather well demonstrated.
Very low amounts of betacarbolines are capable of effective potentiation.
Alcohol promotes the formation of betacarbolines, particularly in alcoholics, which are sequestered by the brain.
And of course, the potentiation effect seems due to the glutamate system in the brain, which is linked to the psychedelic activity, I have not posted much about that here but here, read post 13

How does Ayahuasca Work? - Ayahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Not any of this explains delayed effects that the OP reported, but it is worth addressing.