I think everything is mescaline. Collect what you have.
Mag stirrer will produce finer powder (which are really tiny xtlas), more resting resting/waiting will produce larger crystals.
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TEK Ethyl acetate approach [CIELO]
- Thread starter Loveall
- Start date
This topic contain a TEK
Mag stirrer will produce finer powder (which are really tiny xtlas), more resting resting/waiting will produce larger crystals.
After waiting, collect what you think is the exact same citric acid. Then add 100mg of citric acid to the filtered EA. It should dissolve over time, proving to you that what you collected is not citric acid. Make sense?
Before collecting swirl the jar and get a feel for how fast the powder settles down. Do the same after filtering and adding 100mg of citric acid. You should notice a big difference in how fast the citric acid settles (fast) vs mescaline citrate (much slower).
Jan e Kharabat
Established member
You can also taste the powder, if it doesn't taste like citric acid, it's not citric acid and vice versa
Thank you for replay
Asking the chemist here :
I'm using VINEGAR instead of citric acid, to create SPEX (san pedro extract, a more full spectrum approach).
Observation : I added 100ml vinegar for 1L EA ; , and generaly i recover close to 100%. but last time i recovered only 85ml ; can EA absorb that much ?!! I can't compute where the vinegar went ! (only parameter change is : i used a different lime brand, but same same , generally result are equal ; and it was hotter (30°C vs 24°C ) )
Question 2 : Cleaning my solvent, i just added sodium carbonate to the EA on the mixer. Sodium carb dissolved, an a water layer formed at the bottom. I'm trying to understand why the water is pushed out of the EA
Any recomendation on cleaning the EA without loosing the potentially residual alkaloid left behind (i do only 1 back salting, it takes at least 24h of stirring... )
I'm using VINEGAR instead of citric acid, to create SPEX (san pedro extract, a more full spectrum approach).
Observation : I added 100ml vinegar for 1L EA ; , and generaly i recover close to 100%. but last time i recovered only 85ml ; can EA absorb that much ?!! I can't compute where the vinegar went ! (only parameter change is : i used a different lime brand, but same same , generally result are equal ; and it was hotter (30°C vs 24°C ) )
Question 2 : Cleaning my solvent, i just added sodium carbonate to the EA on the mixer. Sodium carb dissolved, an a water layer formed at the bottom. I'm trying to understand why the water is pushed out of the EA
Any recomendation on cleaning the EA without loosing the potentially residual alkaloid left behind (i do only 1 back salting, it takes at least 24h of stirring... )
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I would suggest checking the solubility of acetic acid in EA. There's a good chance that EA is capable of swallowing a significant amount of vinegar.Asking the chemist here :
I'm using VINEGAR instead of citric acid, to create SPEX (san pedro extract, a more full spectrum approach).
Observation : I added 100ml vinegar for 1L EA ; , and generaly i recover close to 100%. but last time i recovered only 85ml ; can EA absorb that much ?!! I can't compute where the vinegar went ! (only parameter change is : i used a different lime brand, but same same , generally result are equal ; and it was hotter (30°C vs 24°C ) )
Question 2 : Cleaning my solvent, i just added sodium carbonate to the EA on the mixer. Sodium carb dissolved, an a water layer formed at the bottom. I'm trying to understand why the water is pushed out of the EA
Any recomendation on cleaning the EA without loosing the potentially residual alkaloid left behind (i do only 1 back salting, it takes at least 24h of stirring... )
Ok. All the citric acid crystals dissolved. The jar is quite big for the small amount of EA in it. I can see that when I last time have swirled the EA around the edges of the jar, there seems to be some tiny particles attached to the side of the jar; -more like dust particles, definitely more porous than citric acid crystalls, for these do not seem to sink. The same "dust" floats in the EA too. There's very little to collect if any. I've heard some people do CIELO and they let their jars sit for +2 weeks before collecting. In this case, I might as well do if it serves a purpose... How to effectively collect these "dust particles" from this jar?
Should I expect anything remaining in that first jar, ie. the green EA jar?
just posted results on AGE/ not AGED
Testing the aging VS not aging
-Harvested in February, before spring growth restart.
-6 nice columns of the same clone (trich pachanoi "Monad")
Each column was divided in 25cm chunks from top to bottom, and each chunk was marked in alternance : Age / not age. I was also attent that the head of the columns were age/not age in equal amount.
The not age part was immediatly uncored and dried.
The Age part was stored in a completly dark space for 2 months. Then uncored and dried.
A CIELO extraction was performed, side to side :
This correspond to +23% in the age cactus...
-Harvested in February, before spring growth restart.
-6 nice columns of the same clone (trich pachanoi "Monad")
Each column was divided in 25cm chunks from top to bottom, and each chunk was marked in alternance : Age / not age. I was also attent that the head of the columns were age/not age in equal amount.
The not age part was immediatly uncored and dried.
The Age part was stored in a completly dark space for 2 months. Then uncored and dried.
A CIELO extraction was performed, side to side :
This correspond to +23% in the age cactus...
Those dust particles are your product. Collect per the TEK.
What happened to you is that you had a low yielding cacti and salted with citric. In that case, the dynamics are such that xtals are very hard to form and you need to remove some water to avoid goo. The TEK tries to advise against doing this, or potentially doing this if the cactus has an unkown mescaline content (use fumaric instead to avoid issues).
I don't understand your last question.
Ok. Thanks. I mean that now that I have two jars, one with green EA and another with clear EA in it, is there a possibility that there's some mescaline trapped in these that would be salvageable and to that matter, is there for example any point to add fumaric acid in this stage?
Where did these jars come from?
And thus, I have two jars sitting with EA in it, one with 200ml clear and one with the original pulls and painted green by the clorofill.
Before what?
Please describe what you did (step by step) for each of these jars to come into existence. I'm trying to understand and put together early info but I am lost, sorry.
1. Pulls to jar #1 = 1273ml EA
2. Transferred to another jar #2.
3. 100ml EA added to the jar #2m, totaling 1373ml.
4. Jar #1 had something clear, oily stuck to the bottom when remaining EA evaporated.
5. Added 200ml EA + citric acid to jar #1, all acid crystals dissolved
6. Jar #1 = clear EA with tiny something at the sides/bottom , Jar #2 = green, transparent EA
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Hi everybody,
I ve done a Cielo with standard doses in the tek, everything goes good but now that i should filter out the nice xtals that are floating around BUT i saw that a consistent quantity of Fumaric Acid stays undissolved on the bottom and i was wondering how to separate from the goodies or to clean them...
I only have a liter of fresh EA so if possible i would prefere to use the green one....
I tought that maybe i could filter out all the solids, regenerate the EA with washing soda, use the green one to wash the xtals from the excess fumaric and the fresh clear EA to clean them from the green...
Another approach i tought is to heat the green EA to like 50⁰C and use it to clean the xtals, mescaline citrate has a solubility of less than 0.11mg/ml at 25⁰ so in one liter should be like 11mg, at 50⁰ will be probably double so i maybe can assume the loss of 0.1/0.2 mescaline to get rid of the fumaric that at 25⁰c should have like 3 g/l and at50 should be double and enough to dissolve the fumaric that stays in the jars.
Anyone had the same issue?
Thanks in advance
EDIT: what is the size limit for photos attachement? I had a 800kb photo and i can not upload it
I ve done a Cielo with standard doses in the tek, everything goes good but now that i should filter out the nice xtals that are floating around BUT i saw that a consistent quantity of Fumaric Acid stays undissolved on the bottom and i was wondering how to separate from the goodies or to clean them...
I only have a liter of fresh EA so if possible i would prefere to use the green one....
I tought that maybe i could filter out all the solids, regenerate the EA with washing soda, use the green one to wash the xtals from the excess fumaric and the fresh clear EA to clean them from the green...
Another approach i tought is to heat the green EA to like 50⁰C and use it to clean the xtals, mescaline citrate has a solubility of less than 0.11mg/ml at 25⁰ so in one liter should be like 11mg, at 50⁰ will be probably double so i maybe can assume the loss of 0.1/0.2 mescaline to get rid of the fumaric that at 25⁰c should have like 3 g/l and at50 should be double and enough to dissolve the fumaric that stays in the jars.
Anyone had the same issue?
Thanks in advance
EDIT: what is the size limit for photos attachement? I had a 800kb photo and i can not upload it
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Introspection
Rising Star
Supposedly, cactus mucilage can interact with Ca2+ions as can be read in different studies on this topic:
Reason why I am asking, is that this could bring down the amount of material that needs to be processed with CIELO massively if it works. And since you need to run the oven/dehydrator to dry the cactus anyway and then grind it into a powder, you're not really adding any additional steps (other than adding CaCl2) since grinding will be replaced with blender and drying will be done regardless.
Obviously the result will contain CaCl2 salts, so it's not something you would want to take after drying, plus it's also a desiccant so you couldn't really store it dry. But if you are planning on following up with CIELO immediately it might be worthwhile if it works. Thoughts? This could even be attempted with some cactus powder by simply rewetting it and seeing if CaCl2 allows it to filter easily.
- Microstructural and Mechanical Properties of Calcium-Treated Cactus Pear Mucilage (Opuntia spp.), Pectin and Alginate Single-Biopolymer Films - PMC
- https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4360/16/14/1993
- https://www.mdpi.com/2310-2861/11/7/556
- https://smbb.mx/congresos smbb/puertovallarta03/TRABAJOS/AREA_VI/CARTEL/CVI-18.pdf
- Throwing a cactus in the blender
- Adding CaCl2 in different concentrations (perhaps even at different PH values) to hopefully make the sludge filterable
- Filter out the water liquid (french press followed by coffee filter), which should already contain the dissolved mescaline (as I doubt mescaline is undissolved in the cactus)
- Perhaps do one more water pull to make most of it is extracted
- Dry the liquid in a food dehydrator or oven
- Do the CIELO pulls on the result
Reason why I am asking, is that this could bring down the amount of material that needs to be processed with CIELO massively if it works. And since you need to run the oven/dehydrator to dry the cactus anyway and then grind it into a powder, you're not really adding any additional steps (other than adding CaCl2) since grinding will be replaced with blender and drying will be done regardless.
Obviously the result will contain CaCl2 salts, so it's not something you would want to take after drying, plus it's also a desiccant so you couldn't really store it dry. But if you are planning on following up with CIELO immediately it might be worthwhile if it works. Thoughts? This could even be attempted with some cactus powder by simply rewetting it and seeing if CaCl2 allows it to filter easily.
Introspection
Rising Star
I guess you could also pull with CO2 water (either adding CO2 water or bubbling CO2 into the water) + Calcium Carbonate and let it sit in a closed container. Calcium Carbonate barely dissolves, but with CO2 it will form Calcium Bicarbonate which will readily dissolve and provide the Ca2 ions for the mucilage. Once filtered, you could let the CO2 escape from the liquid, which would result in Calcium Bicarbonate turning back into Calcium Carbonate, falling out of solution. Then you could filter again, and dry the resulting water. You would end up with barely any calcium contamination in your final sample and it could be stored to pull from at a later point in time.
Or you could use the result as-is for a full alkaloid profile experience.
Or you could use the result as-is for a full alkaloid profile experience.
Why are you so sure you have undissolved fumaric acid in your EA? Do not go by appearance. If you followed the TEK you do not have residual fumaric, it is all mescaline salts.
The TEK suggests a way to convince you of this. Simply collect your product. Then to the filtered salted EA, add another 100mg of fumaric acid and watch it dissolve over time. That proves that the EA was not saturated by fumaric acid and there is none in your product.
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The mucilage in a still-hydrated piece of cactus would risk making an utter mess with this first step, although early addition of CaCl₂ might possibly calm it down a bit. This is if San Pedro mucilage behaves similarly to Opuntia mucilage, which it might do.
If it works it would makethe beginnings of a nice CWE approach for cactus extraction, but I'd anticipate further technical hurdles.
It would be helpful to see the salient technical quotes from the opuntia paper appended to your post for greater ease of appraisal.
