Experience with @sabnock1990 discovery about tryptophan+b6 and b12+rue

[Transform]

I wish, i mean i've made a few mentions in the hope that a researcher will see it, but i don't know a researcher personally so i'm not sure who to talk to about it.

Their contact details are generally included with the papers published in reputable journals and a fair proportion ofthose in a relevant field would be quite amenable to discussing a well-presented idea.

If you can lay it all out as clearly as possible, ideally somewhat along the lines of a scientific paper in terms of formatting, I'd say you'll have a high (no pun intended) chance of receiving a positive response.

 

[blig-blug]

I'll see if i can find some emails

Papers that are related either in topic or methods can be a good source.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also it's worth mentioning again that when the P5P B6 is taken with the Tryptophan, it seems to completely decarboxylate the Tryptophan to Tryptamine, meaning once Tryptophan decarboxylates to Tryptamine it can only then go down the Tryptamine metabolic route, and can't reverse direction to go towards 5-HTP/Serotonin synthesis, so it's definitely not 5-HTP/Serotonin that's doing what i'm noticing, plus the fact that it's clearly/obviously Tryptamine/NMT/DMT that is being felt/experienced because if you're familiar enough with 5-HTP, Serotonin, Tryptamine, NMT and DMT you can easily tell them apart. If one doesn't take the P5P B6 with the Tryptophan, it doesn't decarboxylate to Tryptamine until about 7 hours later and is then only active in the prefrontal cortex from what i can tell/feel.

Also, if you don't have MAO-A inhibition, then when the Tryptophan decarboxylates fully to Tryptamine via the B6 then the Tryptamine will be instantly broken down by uninhibited MAO-A and thus you won't get any effect from the Tryptophan, whereas if you don't take the B6 with the Tryptophan then the Tryptophan is active as it usually is and turns into 5-HTP/Serotonin. Same thing goes for Phenylalanine, if you take P5P B6 with Phenylalanine it will decarboxylate it to Phenylethylamine which will become orally active if you have MAO-B inhibition, but if you don't have MAO-B inhibition then the Phenylethylamine won't be orally active and there will be no effect from Phenylalanine, but if you take Phenylalanine without B6 then you get the active effects of Phenylalanine. For whatever reason, it seems if you take B6 with an amino acid capable of being decarboxylated, the B6 will force it's decarboxylation, that seems to be why they don't recommend taking B6 at the same time as L-Dopa when treating parkinsons because the B6 decarboxylates L-Dopa to Dopamine and so when you take B6 it decarboxylates the L-Dopa peripherally before it has the chance to cross into the brain, whereas if you take L-Dopa and give it a couple hours (ime) and then take B6 it'll decarboxylate it to Dopamine in the brain. Same thing goes for 5-HTP too btw.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

To disprove that DMT is causing the observed effects. This is just a consequence of the fact that no explanation can be proved on the positive, only disproved. That doesn't mean it will be disproven: if it's actually correct, it will resist the attempts at doing so. It has the additional benefit of counteracting the human tendency of confirmation bias. For more on this see e.g. Karl Popper, but this is besides the point in this conversation, as I now understand what @Sabnock1990 was claiming, and I agree. The specific word used doesn't interest me that much.

I mean, since tryptophan naturally has a pathway for DMT in the brain, and endogenous DMT is broken down quickly by mao, we can conclude that doing this experiment will at the very least give you alot more DMT than you already produce, the matter is to what extent, different people will have different experiences, if your a sensitive person who feels very small shifts in consciousness then you will definitely feel the extra DMT floating in your brain, and dont forget rue is not just a maoi, it increases your sensitivity in alot of different ways, also you can tell sabnock knows what he is talking about by the way he speaks.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I'll definitely check around on some paper/studies and get some emails then and give it a go. Hopefully someone out there takes me/it seriously lol.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

I'll definitely check around on some paper/studies and get some emails then and give it a go. Hopefully someone out there takes me/it seriously lol.

I really doubt that it would be widely known, if it does then tryptophan supplements would be illegal lol.

Better to just keep it a secret haha.

 

[Transform]

tryptophan supplements would be illegal

they already were for a while (see Showa Denko tryptophan controversy).

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also again it should be mentioned that you can tell a difference between Tryptamine and NMT for example, if you don't have enough SAM for Tryptamine to be methylated to NMT, you will feel the Tryptamine itself, it doesn't feel methylated, it feels like the Tryptamine base/backbone basically, but if you have enough SAM the Tryptamine will get methylated and then feels like methylated Tryptamine, and of course NMT is the direct precursor to DMT so all NMT has to do is go back through INMT and it becomes DMT. I figured this out because a few times i took this stuff i noticed the Tryptamine wasn't getting methylated but once i took more B12 then i noticed the increase in SAM and instant methylation of Tryptamine to NMT. So B12 seems very important for this ime.

Of course, DMT is said to be able to inhibit INMT activity at a certain point, so how much DMT can be synthesized is anybody's guess at the moment but ime it's enough to be pretty noticeable. SAH is also reported to be able to inhibit INMT but so long as you have proper Adenosylhomocysteinase/SAH Hydrolase activity then the SAH will be easily converted to Homocysteine which will then be easily recycled back to Methionine assuming one has enough B12/Methylcobalamin and Folate/Methylfolate, and it makes me wonder if since SAH can inhibit INMT and other methyltransferases, if SAM could increase activity of INMT and other methyltransferases like via a positive allosteric modulation kind of mechanism, which it's already known that SAH can inhibit or some cases increase activity of certain enzymes, while SAM can increase activity of certain enzymes or in some cases inhibit them, so maybe with enough SAM once might be able to increase activity of INMT, perhaps, or maybe even increase the expression of INMT via epigenetics/methylation.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I really doubt that it would be widely known, if it does then tryptophan supplements would be illegal lol.

Better to just keep it a secret haha.

Well, even if Tryptophan were to go away, there's still Tryptophan-rich foods lol, they'd just include other things which may make the process a bit more difficult unless we can find certain foods or plants that are rich primarily in Tryptophan.

I don't think they'd be able to make it illegal though, they did force it off shelves for a bit awhile back but that was due to a contamination issue like Transform mentioned.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also it's worth mentioning that Tryptamine itself, as well as NMT, also seem to have some activity at Serotonin 2A and some other receptors. But even then, you can tell a clear difference between the Tryptamine, NMT and DMT. So one may notice some effects at first from the Tryptamine itself or NMT itself, but it will also turn into DMT which then brings a little something different compared to Tryptamine or NMT.

 

[blig-blug]

mean, since tryptophan naturally has a pathway for DMT in the brain, and endogenous DMT is broken down quickly by mao, we can conclude that doing this experiment will at the very least give you alot more DMT than you already produce

You can conclude that, and you won't know until you do the experiment. One would need to think what one would expect to find if the hypothesis is wrong, and then try to find that. In this case, it could be as simple as "the same DMT level", which is just the complement of looking for an elevated DMT level. But it's not always like that, and the difference matters when looking for what experiments are worth it, experiment design, etc. The human tendency is to try to prove hypotheses in the positive, and that's not only not possible, but carries the extra risk of confirmation bias, just based on how our mind works.

In this case and in practice, there's the further complication that there's no solid evidence for the human brain containing DMT at all. It's certainly plausible, but it hasn't been experimentally tested. Thus, it's so far a hypothesis, even if a plausible one.

I'm not trying to say it's not plausible based on what is known, and what I was trying to say has already been said and sorted.

I'm open to discussing about the right way to gather evidence for a hypothesis, but there may be a better thread for that.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I mean, since tryptophan naturally has a pathway for DMT in the brain, and endogenous DMT is broken down quickly by mao, we can conclude that doing this experiment will at the very least give you alot more DMT than you already produce, the matter is to what extent, different people will have different experiences, if your a sensitive person who feels very small shifts in consciousness then you will definitely feel the extra DMT floating in your brain, and dont forget rue is not just a maoi, it increases your sensitivity in alot of different ways, also you can tell sabnock knows what he is talking about by the way he speaks.

How do we know it's a downstream process of DMT and not some other biological mechanism that leads to a certain kind of experience? We need to bear in mind, we don't just have a shit ton of DMT floating in our blood. It's biosynthesized in specific instances and contexts.

I am skeptical of the idea that all endogenous or natural psychedelic experiences are related to DMT.

One love

 

[blig-blug]

I am skeptical of the idea that all endogenous or natural psychedelic experiences are related to DMT.

Indeed, it could be that only the DMT experience is related to DMT. With DMT acting as a trigger for a state the brain can enter through other triggers and/or means.

And if we don't share the assumptions behind the scientific method, there are an infinity of other possibilities.

Still, I do think it's worth it to further explore this from a scientific POV.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I'm confident that the DMT levels will increase from baseline levels with this method, and it should very well be detectable, only thing is the timeframe for how this stuff is metabolized, so one should probably test at periodic levels over a period of the first 10 hours maybe? vs only testing right after administration, but ime like i said if you take the P5P B6 with the Tryptophan it instantly decarboxylates the Tryptophan to Tryptamine and then the Tryptamine instantly gets methylated to NMT and then to DMT, assuming one has everything accounted for (B's and MAO-A inhibition), so the synthesis process itself seems pretty quick, but again, if the B6 isn't taken with the Tryptophan (even with MAO-A inhibition involved) then the Tryptophan will go it's usual metabolic route and only seems to turn into Tryptamine approx 7 hours later ime, and then the Tryptamine, NMT and DMT are only felt/experienced via the prefrontal cortex/in the brain, whereas with the B6 (and MAO-A inhiibtion) the Tryptamine/NMT/DMT seem to be orally/systemically active and takes effect much sooner.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

Well, even if Tryptophan were to go away, there's still Tryptophan-rich foods lol, they'd just include other things which may make the process a bit more difficult unless we can find certain foods or plants that are rich primarily in Tryptophan.

I don't think they'd be able to make it illegal though, they did force it off shelves for a bit awhile back but that was due to a contamination issue like Transform mentioned.

Then they would make rue illegal haha

 

[harmala_afficianado]

You can conclude that, and you won't know until you do the experiment. One would need to think what one would expect to find if the hypothesis is wrong, and then try to find that. In this case, it could be as simple as "the same DMT level", which is just the complement of looking for an elevated DMT level. But it's not always like that, and the difference matters when looking for what experiments are worth it, experiment design, etc. The human tendency is to try to prove hypotheses in the positive, and that's not only not possible, but carries the extra risk of confirmation bias, just based on how our mind works.

In this case and in practice, there's the further complication that there's no solid evidence for the human brain containing DMT at all. It's certainly plausible, but it hasn't been experimentally tested. Thus, it's so far a hypothesis, even if a plausible one.

Yeah, but at some point you should see beyond the physical proof, we cant as humans only believe what we see with our eyes

 

[Sabnock1990]

Then they would make rue illegal haha

Probably, but even then there's things like Moclobemide, or alternatively full fledged irreversible/non-selective MAOI's, which again would make the process a bit more difficult and perhaps less available to everyone, but those taking or able to take a prescribed (or overseas bought) MAOI would still have access.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I wonder if they could tag DMT with a radioactive tracer or something so that they could see it in the Human brain? Though i guess that wouldn't work for endogenously synthesized DMT, but it could help out with exogenous DMT.

 

[harmala_afficianado]

How do we know it's a downstream process of DMT and not some other biological mechanism that leads to a certain kind of experience? We need to bear in mind, we don't just have a shit ton of DMT floating in our blood. It's biosynthesized in specific instances and contexts.

I am skeptical of the idea that all endogenous or natural psychedelic experiences are related to DMT.

One love

Could certainly be true, maybe it's a molecule similar to DMT we know nothing about , it sure does produce a psychedelic tryptamine though, wether DMT or not.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Yeah, but at some point you should see beyond the physical proof, we cant as humans only believe what we see with our eyes

Yup. Personally i try to scour the research and do my studying, and then gain understanding on things i feel or observe or experience and see how they correlate. For me feeling is a great way to understand what's going on in the body/brain, i just know not everyone is as scientific about it as i am and so people can have placebo effects and may mistake something for something else, feeling can be tricky but it can teach a lot to those who pay attention and know how to connect dots and know the mechanisms and such.