This might be late on the conversation.but you should reach out to Paul Daley (stupid easy to find his email) , Dennis McKenna and David Nichols. Or some of the people that work for them... And this is just the most obvious people list.
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Experience with @sabnock1990 discovery about tryptophan+b6 and b12+rue
- Thread starter harmala_afficianado
- Start date
Sabnock1990
Be Your Own Shaman
Oh definitely question yourself and what you think is going on, make sure of things to the best of your ability. Personal bias is indeed a thing, fortunately for me i'm not particularly biased, i try my best to leave any personal bias at the door on the way in, and then i put on my observation cap (as opposed to my thinking cap) lol. I like to deal with the raw data first without any of my own thinking influencing things, and then i try to wrap my head around what i think is going on.
Also it should be noted that i didn't go into this with the thought of endogenous DMT in mind, i started out just addressing and trying to correct my deficiencies and started learning more about what these nutrients do in the body/brain and what processes they influence, and then i started taking some Tryptophan because i wanted to boost my Serotonin levels and to do that i also needed to take the B's because they influence how much 5-HTP/Serotonin is produced from Tryptophan, but i started out taking the Tryptophan and B's apart from each other and then when i decided to try taking them all together, especially while on Rue, that's when i started noticing the endogenous Tryptamine effects, and so i started reading into endogenous Tryptamine synthesis and figured out that AADC/DOPA Decarboxylase and INMT have interactions with B6 (AADC) and B12/Folate (SAM/INMT), and was able to put two and two together as to what was going on. So i didn't originally set out to induce endogenous Tryptamine synthesis, that just happened as a consequence of my experimentations and study.
Sabnock1990
Be Your Own Shaman
Right on, will see what i can do.
harmala_afficianado
Established member
My answer to the wrong question also answers your right question
harmala_afficianado
Established member
If your mind is god, how can your mind be your demise?
The question is posed by a person. The Mind is like the sky and is just a pure vastness of possibility. It can hold both you and all your ideas. God and the devil are just rainbows - there is no substance to them. You see it all by diving into yourself. At least, that is my view on it. Why create opposition where there is none?
harmala_afficianado
Established member
I'm not, i'm basically saying that we are not perfect, and what we will to do or think determines our destiny, you can't call your mind god if your mind can make you suffer while you didn't even notice how lol.
Who tells you you're not perfect? It's a solid question right here. Who believes it? Why do you keep insisting that it's your mind, though? Are you the owner or the one being owned? Let's shift to God then. Should you surrender to God or the other way around? Let's shift to Cosmos now. You're a unique expression of the Cosmos, and every thought you have is directly intertwined with what's happening in the Andromeda galaxy right now. All of the above are simply labels and pointers. "I know nothing" is one more rainbow.
Where is it all taking place? I assume you have thoughts like all of us. Where are your thoughts located? Don't put a label on it - just look.
harmala_afficianado
Established member
The essence of us is god, yes, our spirit is from god, but we do not own our spirit, if we did, we would not suffer when we wish not to suffer, why do some people literally go to hell and suffer for eternity on DMT and other psychedelics? Isn't DMT the gateway to our essence?Who tells you you're not perfect? It's a solid question right here. Who believes it? Why do you keep insisting that it's your mind, though? Are you the owner or the one being owned? Let's shift to God then. Should you surrender to God or the other way around? Let's shift to Cosmos now. You're a unique expression of the Cosmos, and every thought you have is directly intertwined with what's happening in the Andromeda galaxy right now. All of the above are simply labels and pointers. "I know nothing" is one more rainbow.
Where is it all taking place? I assume you have thoughts like all of us. Where are your thoughts located? Don't put a label on it - just look.
You've answered it all yourself: Isn't DMT the gateway to our essence? What's our essence then? Why would the sky put a limit on anything when it's total openness itself?
Suffering is always experienced by an individual. When you isolate yourself from the whole, there is a response - suffering. It's akin to an immune response to point you back in the direction of truth. From here on, you have two choices (oh, our lovely duality): get tight and suffer, or open to it all and embrace it fully.
Regardless, I was pointing at something very different. Look at who's having all these ideas. Where are you? Where are your thoughts? Just look, and if you get naturally silent for a second, marinate in that state. Good luck
harmala_afficianado
Established member
It doesn't and it never does.
What mislead you from the direction of truth if you are perfect? You might say well this is part of the "perfection" yes it is, but you have no hand in it, hence why you left the truth and suffered the consequences.
Wether you embrace it or not, you still prefer it would end.
There is no location.
I know that state very very well.Just look, and if you get naturally silent for a second, marinate in that state. Good luck
I'm far from perfect. Judging by the amount of suffering in my life, I have a long way to go. Still, I don't fight it. You can try, but believe me, it leads nowhere.
I'll leave you be with your own ideas, which I do respect. Much love to you
Edit: Now I see that I misunderstood your response, but it's all the same. We have no answers here, and only Silence reigns supreme.
There is a lot of things to address here.
Almost 95% of the tryptophan ingested goes toward the kynurenine pathway for niacin synthesis.
AADC has a very low binding affinity to tryptophan compared to 5-HTP or L-DOPA.
Let's imagine some of the tryptophan got converted to tryptamin, we are left with the INMT step. SAH which inhibits INMT has a higher binding affinity to INMT than SAM-e.
A more scientific approach would be first of all to inhibits/speee up one by one undesired pathways to see which one is the most rate limiting when it comes to Tryptophan to DMT conversion in the body.
Using for example IDO1/TDO inhibitors to limit kynurenine pathway, tryptophan hydroxylase and tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitors to limit the amount of 5-HTP/L-DOPA so AADC has a higher chance to bind to tryptophan, as well as speeding up SAH hydrolase.
Then speeding up the desired pathway as you are doing here with P5P and B12, even if SAM-e would be more adapted in this context than B12.
Good luck getting your hands on synthetic IDO1/TDO inhibitors as they are often times used in research for cancer treatments. What comes to my mind as natural IDO1/TDO inhibitor is Salvia miltiorrhiza also called Danshen in TCM, but would it be as potent?
I mean, on paper what you propose sounds great, however it requires researchers working on it because theory without practice means nothing.
Almost 95% of the tryptophan ingested goes toward the kynurenine pathway for niacin synthesis.
AADC has a very low binding affinity to tryptophan compared to 5-HTP or L-DOPA.
Let's imagine some of the tryptophan got converted to tryptamin, we are left with the INMT step. SAH which inhibits INMT has a higher binding affinity to INMT than SAM-e.
A more scientific approach would be first of all to inhibits/speee up one by one undesired pathways to see which one is the most rate limiting when it comes to Tryptophan to DMT conversion in the body.
Using for example IDO1/TDO inhibitors to limit kynurenine pathway, tryptophan hydroxylase and tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitors to limit the amount of 5-HTP/L-DOPA so AADC has a higher chance to bind to tryptophan, as well as speeding up SAH hydrolase.
Then speeding up the desired pathway as you are doing here with P5P and B12, even if SAM-e would be more adapted in this context than B12.
Good luck getting your hands on synthetic IDO1/TDO inhibitors as they are often times used in research for cancer treatments. What comes to my mind as natural IDO1/TDO inhibitor is Salvia miltiorrhiza also called Danshen in TCM, but would it be as potent?
I mean, on paper what you propose sounds great, however it requires researchers working on it because theory without practice means nothing.
harmala_afficianado
Established member
If you didn't choose to suffer, you will be compensated sooner or later, just like there is no good without bad there is no bad without good, that's just how it is.
Hopefully they can benefit you in some way or another, much love to you too my friendI'll leave you be with your own ideas, which I do respect. Much love to you
May your path be clear and straight
harmala_afficianado
Established member
2 people have tried it with success, did you hear about someone trying it with no success? You likely didn't, you can easily try yourself.
It didn't work for @BahiyaSutta but it's unclear what their dosages were. It doesn't have to work well for everyone every time for there to be a significant mechanism worth exploring though
Sabnock1990
Be Your Own Shaman
It's much, much simpler than all that. Again, if you take the P5P B6 with the Tryptophan, it completely/totally/entirely decarboxylates Tryptophan to Tryptamine, when that happens, Tryptophan is irreversibly converted to Tryptamine, from there Tryptamine can either be inactivated if there's not sufficient MAO-A inhibition, or otherwise can only go one way aka to NMT/DMT conversion. By taking P5P B6 with Tryptophan, the Tryptophan can't convert to 5-HTP or to Niacin or to Kynurenine etc.
So there's no need for inhibitors of IDO1/TDO, Tryptophan Hydroxylase or Tyrosine Hydroxylase, and ime SAH Hydrolase seems to work just fine so long as there's enough Niacin (the cofactor used by SAH Hydrolase) though might want to avoid high doses of Copper since it's said to be able to inhibit SAH Hydrolase in higher doses. And so when SAH breaks down to Homocysteine, so long as there's enough Methylfolate and Methylcobalamin/B12 (most importantly B12) the Homocysteine will instantly be recycled back to Methionine and sent back into the SAM cycle.
So yeah, not just some Tryptophan gets converted into Tryptamine, so long as the P5P B6 is taken with the Tryptophan, then ALL of the Tryptophan will get decarboxylated to Tryptamine. I have tested this out in a few different ways, and when i take B6 with the Tryptophan (with or without MAO-A inhibition) there does not seem to be any 5-HTP/Serotonin or Niacin produced, but if taken without the B6, like i said, it then goes down it's usual metabolic pathway, and if you take it with active MAO-A inhibition it will only end up turning into Tryptamine 7 hours later and only in the brain, but if taken with the B6 the Tryptophan converts to Tryptamine in the gut which then quickly becomes orally/systemically active and then turns into NMT/DMT which also is then orally/systemically active and not just in the brain.
If others can manage to get this working for themselves, and test things out like i did, they too will see this is indeed the case. Tryptophan can decarboxylate fully/completely into Tryptamine which can then become orally active and then turns into orally active NMT/DMT. There's a distinct set of differences between taking Tryptophan with B6 and without B6. And again it should be noted that this is with the P5P form of B6, not Pyridoxine.
Sabnock1990
Be Your Own Shaman
And ime it seems that the rate-limiting factor in this whole this is B12 and thus SAM levels, since Tryptophan seems to decarboxylate to Tryptamine just fine in the presence of P5P B6 and active MAO-A inhibition, the Tryptamine will most definitely be easily formed and active. From there it seems to come down to the B12 and thus SAM for conversion to NMT/DMT, and when it comes to DMT itself i think DMT's potential INMT inhibition is likely the second most important rate-limiting factor.
In fact back years ago during my active Ayahuasca experimentations, i took Tryptophan one night with B6 because i was trying to see if i could get some Serotonin/Melatonin and it gave me a really weird feeling that at the time i mistook for the beginning of Serotonin Syndrome but then during my recent experimentations with Tryptophan+B's i realized that feeling was actually not Serotonin Syndrome, it was Tryptamine. So the Tryptamine is very easy to produce this way, and the success of NMT/DMT synthesis mainly comes down to B12/Methylfolate, and SAM.
In fact back years ago during my active Ayahuasca experimentations, i took Tryptophan one night with B6 because i was trying to see if i could get some Serotonin/Melatonin and it gave me a really weird feeling that at the time i mistook for the beginning of Serotonin Syndrome but then during my recent experimentations with Tryptophan+B's i realized that feeling was actually not Serotonin Syndrome, it was Tryptamine. So the Tryptamine is very easy to produce this way, and the success of NMT/DMT synthesis mainly comes down to B12/Methylfolate, and SAM.
Sabnock1990
Be Your Own Shaman
Yeah like i said, if this doesn't work for someone, they didn't do something right or they have deficiencies which need to be corrected first.
To get this to work, you apparently can't or shouldn't have a B12 deficiency, or Folate deficiency, or deficiencies in any other nutrients along the metabolic chains that are involved in Folate metabolism and the like.
You also have to make sure you time and consume things properly, so like with oral DMT for example some people take DMT and Harmalas at the same time (like via traditional Ayahuasca) or take them 20 to 30 minutes apart when a more proper timeframe would be 1 hour between the Harmalas and the DMT, same thing goes for Harmalas and Psilocin (Psilohuasca), as well as the Tryptophan+B's, you want to take anything metabolized by MAO-A when there is maximal/peak gut MAO-A inhibition which ime/for me personally is exactly 1 hour into the Harmalas, but the timing between the Harmalas and MAO-A substrates can depend on one's CYP2D6 status as those with high amounts of CYP2D6 metabolize Harmalas faster which can shorten the timeframe, or those with low amounts of CYP2D6 which could stretch out the timeframe to some degree, i think i'm average in CYP2D6 so 1 hour apart is best ime.
Then you just have to make sure that you take the P5P B6, Methylcobalamin B12, and possibly some amount of Methylfolate, with the Tryptophan, during active gut MAO-A inhibition. And if one is deficient in B12, even if they take the B12 with it, it might not work until they get to work on correcting their B12 deficiency.
Another factor to account for would be Potassium and/or Magnesium deficiency since they are the cofactors needed by Methionine Adenosyltransferase to turn Methionine into SAM, and if one is low/deficient in Potassium and/or Magnesium they can thus be low in SAM, though i haven't tried taking Potassium/Magnesium with this stuff so i don't think they're necessarily needed in the mix itself, but just make sure one doesn't have low Potassium or Magnesium and it should be fine.
From there, one should get their SAM, which then gets used by INMT, which then turns to SAH which then gets converted into Homocysteine by SAH Hydrolase and then the Homocysteine gets converted back into Methionine by B12/Methylfolate via Methionine Synthase and so on and on the cycle goes.
So long as one has all the nutrients and substrates and precursors and available enzymes needed, it'll work.
Sabnock1990
Be Your Own Shaman
Also, this brings to mind potential 5-HO-DMT and 5-MEO-DMT synthesis as well as other trace metabolites. It makes me wonder what might happen if one had MAO-A inhibited completely for a period of time (like with an irreversible MAOI), and then only consumed Tryptophan with P5P B6 and made sure they had plenty of SAM/B12/Folate and any other nutrients needed by the various enzymes. Then DMT could go through Tryptophan Hydroxylase to become 5-Hydroxy-DMT aka Bufotenin, for example, or DMT or 5-Hydroxy-DMT could go through Acetylserotonin O-methyltransferase to become 5-Methoxy-DMT. If endogenous Tryptamines are able to build up and not be inactivated and there is plenty of substrate and cofactors available, and no slow down in actively involved enzymes, there's no telling what all the body/brain could produce. There's even potential for endogenous Beta-Carbolines from Tryptophan as well, like perhaps Pinoline for example.
Also there could be a route for 5-MEO via 5-Methoxy-Tryptamine which could then go through INMT to become 5-Methoxy-NMT and then 5-Methoxy-DMT.
This part of course is speculative, as so far i have not noticed any Bufotenin or 5-MEO, or Pinoline (as far as i know), but, imo, it could be possible.
It makes me wonder if potentially back in the ancient days, maybe early primates/hominids could access more of these endogenous Tryptamines, perhaps back then MAO-A activity was lower, substrates and cofactors were higher, idk, but it makes me wonder if there was ever a time when animals had more access to these trace amines. Just a thought.
Also there could be a route for 5-MEO via 5-Methoxy-Tryptamine which could then go through INMT to become 5-Methoxy-NMT and then 5-Methoxy-DMT.
This part of course is speculative, as so far i have not noticed any Bufotenin or 5-MEO, or Pinoline (as far as i know), but, imo, it could be possible.
It makes me wonder if potentially back in the ancient days, maybe early primates/hominids could access more of these endogenous Tryptamines, perhaps back then MAO-A activity was lower, substrates and cofactors were higher, idk, but it makes me wonder if there was ever a time when animals had more access to these trace amines. Just a thought.
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