Experience with @sabnock1990 discovery about tryptophan+b6 and b12+rue

[Sabnock1990]

Also i need to make sure people understand that for the Folate aspect one needs proper Folate (preferably Methylfolate, but Folinic Acid may work too) and should avoid Folic Acid. Folic Acid causes some issues that proper natural Folate doesn't cause.

So for example, Folic Acid is rate-limited by DHFR, and DHFR is easily saturated by Folic Acid at around approx 200mcgs, if one takes more than 200mcgs of Folic Acid at one time it can overwhelm the DHFR enzyme and then you get unmetabolized Folic Acid going into the bloodstream which then crosses the blood-brain barrier and can strongly bind to Folate Receptor Alpha supposedly approx 10x stronger than Methylfolate, and a lot of unmetabolized Folic Acid can then tie up Folate Receptor Alpha and prevent it from being able to uptake Methylfolate, and if Methylfolate can't get taken up by Folate Receptor Alpha then Methylfolate can't get into the brain and if Methylfolate can't get into the brain it can't give it's methyl group to B12 via Methionine Synthase and thus Methionine Synthase can't produce the Methylcobalamin form of B12, and so that can interfere with Methylcobalamin formation and thus Homocysteine recycling to Methionine, which can then cause low Methionine levels and thus low SAM levels while allowing Homocysteine levels to rise.

So, that essentially means one should preferably avoid Folic Acid as much as humanly possible, especially via fortified foods, which may be hard for some people to cut out of their diet or they may not even think about it or even know that Folic Acid does this. And so if people are consuming Folic Acid, it could interfere with endogenous NMT/DMT synthesis (though one would still get the Tryptamine since that depends solely on B6 and decarboxylation).

So avoid Folic Acid, use Methylfolate ideally or try out Folinic Acid. I know the Methylfolate works for this, but i haven't tested this out with Folinic Acid yet but technically Folinic Acid should work since it doesn't cause the issues that Folic Acid causes.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Like i said, a few simple factors to account for, but so long as all the bases are covered, it'll work.

Maybe i'm just lucky in being able to figure this stuff out, maybe it's the Autism lol, i just hope that others will be able to figure it out as well, it's a pretty simple process to wrap one's head around, just gotta make sure things are done rightly.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also as far as 5-HTP/Serotonin goes, i've personally experienced higher 5-HTP synthesis due to higher Methylfolate dosages (the same dosages i was taking around the time i figured out the endogenous Tryptamine synthesis thing), and i noticed that higher Methylfolate dosages raised Tetrahydrobiopterin levels higher which then generated a greater amount of 5-HTP and thus Serotonin from Tryptophan, and this was without MAO-A inhibition btw. And yet when i took the B6 with the Tryptophan, again, the B6 decarboxylated Tryptophan fully to Tryptamine, and i did not notice 5-HTP or Serotonin from the Tryptophan even with the higher Methylfolate dosages and thus higher Tetrahydrobiopterin levels, whereas when i didn't take the B6 with the Tryptophan, i noticed the increased levels of 5-HTP and Serotonin.

So again, it seems like once Tryptophan gets decarboxylated to Tryptamine, the process is irreversible, it converts to Tryptamine and can only go forwards along Tryptamine's metabolic path from there. Therefore one won't get 5-HTP or Serotonin, or even Niacin, from Tryptophan if it's taken with the B6, if you could then surely i would've noticed it by now, but Tryptophan with and without B6 seems to produce different metabolites and goes along different metabolic pathways.

I also noticed that when i didn't take B6 with Tryptophan, i would feel the 5-HTP/Serotonin, yet if i took the B6 with the Tryptophan, i wouldn't feel the 5-HTP/Serotonin and so my Serotonin levels would lower overall.

And if i took the B6 with the Tryptophan without MAO-A inhibition involved, i would feel what felt like a slight beginning of Tryptamine synthesis that would be abruptly ended due to MAO-A, and so if i took B6 with Tryptophan without MAO-A inhibition, it would terminate the Tryptamine and then it basically felt like i didn't take any Tryptophan, certainly didn't feel any 5-HTP or Serotonin or Niacin (all of which i have felt from Tryptophan without B6).

 

[harmala_afficianado]

Maybe i'm just lucky in being able to figure this stuff out, maybe it's the Autism lol, i just hope that others will be able to figure it out as well, it's a pretty simple process to wrap one's head around, just gotta make sure things are done rightly.

I think It might be autism+rue, idk how to fully describe it but i can see the impact rue has on you, because it has the same impact on me.

 

[modern]

Have you taken the 8g of rue by it's self? IDK the maybe the rue was stronger than normal?
At 1-1.2g of harmala level the experience provided a full trip. I didn't get fractals like with DMT but did have a vision.
syrian rue is usually 4-6% but maybe you have exceptionally strong seeds at 12%+?

A very high harmala dose and any other Supplement which will change brain chemistry plus an expectation of a certain result can lead to certain experiences.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Have you taken the 8g of rue by it's self? IDK the maybe the rue was stronger than normal?
At 1-1.2g of harmala level the experience provided a full trip. I didn't get fractals like with DMT but did have a vision.
syrian rue is usually 4-6% but maybe you have exceptionally strong seeds at 12%+?

A very high harmala dose and any other Supplement which will change brain chemistry plus an expectation of a certain result can lead to certain experiences.

Totally off-topic, but I need you to stop being a stranger

Always good to see you @modern

One love

 

[harmala_afficianado]

Have you taken the 8g of rue by it's self? IDK the maybe the rue was stronger than normal?
At 1-1.2g of harmala level the experience provided a full trip. I didn't get fractals like with DMT but did have a vision.
syrian rue is usually 4-6% but maybe you have exceptionally strong seeds at 12%+?

A very high harmala dose and any other Supplement which will change brain chemistry plus an expectation of a certain result can lead to certain experiences.

Im familiar with how 8g feels as i was taking it daily for months, but a maybe a few weeks break made it feel stronger than usual, i do know the tryptophan played a part tho, the experience itself was powerful and very visual and introspective, but im not certain which played a bigger role, i have taken only 5g today and it hit very hard, which leads me to believe tryptophan played a big role, i will try it again in a few days to be certain.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Im familiar with how 8g feels as i was taking it daily for months, but a maybe a few weeks break made it feel stronger than usual, i do know the tryptophan played a part tho, the experience itself was powerful and very visual and introspective, but im not certain which played a bigger role, i have taken only 5g today and it hit very hard, which leads me to believe tryptophan played a big role, i will try it again in a few days to be certain.

I took harmalas daily for a few years and ended up where less was more.

One love

 

[Sabnock1990]

I took harmalas daily for a few years and ended up where less was more.

One love

Yup, same, been taking the Rue/Harmalas pretty much daily for 14 going on 15 years now and now it's just really clean feeling and i only need 2 grams a day. The Harmala reverse tolerance makes the Harmala content get stronger and stronger with regular consumption and then one doesn't need to take high/heavy dosages of the Rue itself and can instead take a lower dosage and still go deeeep into Harmala territory as one would with higher/heavier Rue dosages, and because you don't have to consume as much Rue and can use a lower dosage then the level of background compounds will be lower than with higher/heavier Rue dosages and thus will make the Rue feel cleaner/clearer compared to higher/heavier dosages which can feel more rough. The Harmala reverse tolerance also applies to Caapi as well as Harmala extracts.

 

[Voidmatrix]

The reverse tolerance effect seems to last as well, as I stopped drinking rue daily for a long period and am now moving back to it. Now, I still don't need much. I made the mistake of dosing as though I were acclimated but still new, and dosed so high it was uncomfortable. I still don't need more than 2g.

One love

 

[Sabnock1990]

Have you taken the 8g of rue by it's self? IDK the maybe the rue was stronger than normal?
At 1-1.2g of harmala level the experience provided a full trip. I didn't get fractals like with DMT but did have a vision.
syrian rue is usually 4-6% but maybe you have exceptionally strong seeds at 12%+?

A very high harmala dose and any other Supplement which will change brain chemistry plus an expectation of a certain result can lead to certain experiences.

Harmalas naturally have a reverse tolerance so the Harmala content will get stronger even when the Rue is taken at low dosages/the same dosages if taken regularly (daily or a few times a week). The alkaloid content of the seed doesn't seem to vary much if at all ime, it's always been consistent over the almost 15 years i've been taking it pretty much daily, it's just the Harmala reverse tolerance that makes it stronger. Another factor can be one's CYP2D6 liver enzyme, as some people have higher or lower levels of CYP2D6, and Harmalas are metabolized by CYP2D6 so one's CYP2D6 status can determine how much Harmalas one may need compared to the average consumer as well as the potential duration to dosage ratio. Harmalas also naturally will lengthen in duration as the Harmala dosage increases.

With that said, it is true that Rue can ramp up with higher/heavier dosages or with regular consumption via the Harmala reverse tolerance, and as such some of their properties and resulting side-effects can come out more and be more noticeable and dramatic but ultimately with regular consumption of the Rue the side-effects will go away completely (since a lot of the side-effects come from things like Acetylcholine receptor stimulation by the increase in Acetylcholine caused by the Acetylcholinesterase inhibition of the Harmalas/Rue, which then the Acetylcholine receptors get desensitized/down-regulated by the excess Acetylcholine and that desensitization/down-regulation is what does away with the side-effects like nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, bodyload, etc) and the Rue will clean up very well and then basically feels like a natural anti-depressant. The background compounds of the Rue also contribute to the increase in Acetylcholine because some of the background compounds also strongly inhibit Acetylcholinesterase and can thus contribute to the the overall Acetylcholine level increase due to the Harmalas. And so the rise in Acetylcholine is a property that contributes to some of the psychoactive properties of the Rue/Harmalas and so as the body gets used to things then those particular Acetylcholine-related properties will also go away so it's a little less psychoactive and much more manageable).

 

[universecannon]

I mixed harmalas, rue, or caapi with melatonin for years and ended up where 2g leaves me flattened for 12 hours, having weird visions and OBEs in the dark. I stopped for years and it still effects me the same way (though the nausea is worse now, but that might be with age). These posts about large doses give me vertigo

 

[Sabnock1990]

The reverse tolerance effect seems to last as well, as I stopped drinking rue daily for a long period and am now moving back to it. Now, I still don't need much. I made the mistake of dosing as though I were acclimated but still new, and dosed so high it was uncomfortable. I still don't need more than 2g.

One love

Yup, with repeated dosing for close to around a 9 month to 1 year stretch and then stopping the Rue cold turkey, i've noticed that i can still feel the overall Harmala effect/feeling in the body/brain for about 3 months or so after and then i just return to absolute baseline all without any withdrawal effects or side-effects of any kind, it's a very natural and smooth de-escalation process. And it does seem even after that, the body has still regardless grown sensitive to the Harmalas.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I mixed harmalas, rue, or caapi with melatonin for years and ended up where 2g leaves me flattened for 12 hours, having weird visions and OBEs in the dark. I stopped for years and it still effects me the same way (though the nausea is worse now, but that might be with age). These posts about large doses give me vertigo

I've taken Melatonin on top of Rue/Harmalas many times myself, for me i notice the CYP1A2 inhibition of the Harmalas which Melatonin is metabolized by CYP1A2 and so the Harmalas' CYP1A2 inhibition potentiates the Melatonin to 2 to 3 times the dosage and also lengthens out the duration of the Melatonin (as well as other CYP1A2 substrates, like Caffeine for example) so long as it's taken during the active CYP1A2 inhibition window of the Harmalas/Rue which ime seems to be dependent on dosage of the Harmalas/Rue so lower to moderate dosages inhibit CYP1A2 around 4 to 6 hours in, higher/heavier dosages inhibit CYP1A2 around 8 to 10 hours in, and so if you take Melatonin in the 4th or 6th or 8th or 10th hour of the Harmalas/Rue it will be potentiated and lengthened. And higher Melatonin dosages can cause some side-effects and even some slightly trippy effects, but mostly it just gave me horrible nightmares and intense/vivid dreams, as well as me waking up screaming or cussing in my sleep, but that's Melatonin in general for me personally, with and without the Harmalas/Rue, and i even get the same effect/reaction/side-effects from endogenous Melatonin synthesis via the B12/SAM.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Yup, with repeated dosing for close to around a one 9 month to 1 year stretch and then stopping the Rue cold turkey, i've noticed that i can still feel the overall Harmala effect/feeling in the brain/brain for about 3 months or so after and then i just return to absolute baseline all without any withdrawal effects or side-effects of any kind, it's a very natural and smooth de-escalation process. And it does seem even after that, the body is still regardless grown sensitive to the Harmalas.

I prefer the better mileage. It has been the case with almost all molecules. Now, while I may have stopped drinking it regularly, I was still smoalking changa regularly, so that could have also left the door open a bit for me. That said, I haven't actually gone a long period without harmalas in quite some time.

One love

 

[universecannon]

I've taken Melatonin on top of Rue/Harmalas many times myself, for me i notice the CYP1A2 inhibition of the Harmalas which Melatonin is metabolized by CYP1A2 and so the Harmalas' CYP1A2 inhibition potentiates the Melatonin to 2 to 3 times the dosage and also lengthens out the duration of the Melatonin (as well as other CYP1A2 substrates, like Caffeine for example) so long as it's taken during the active CYP1A2 inhibition window of the Harmalas/Rue which ime seems to be dependent on dosage of the Harmalas/Rue so lower to moderate dosages inhibit CYP1A2 around 4 to 6 hours in, higher/heavier dosages inhibit CYP1A2 around 8 to 10 hours in, and so if you take Melatonin in the 4th or 6th or 8th or 10th hour of the Harmalas/Rue it will be potentiated and lengthened. And higher Melatonin dosages can cause some side-effects and even some slightly trippy effects, but mostly it just gave me horrible nightmares and intense/vivid dreams, as well as me waking up screaming or cussing in my sleep, but that's Melatonin in general for me personally, with and without the Harmalas/Rue, and i even get the same effect/reaction/side-effects from endogenous Melatonin synthesis via the B12/SAM.

I don't remember the timing of the melatonin making much difference, but it was over a decade ago now. You probably are aware of this stuff but MAO-a inhibitors have also been found to increase melatonin production, and there is loads of mild MAOI in fruit phytochemicals to. I noticed that a long term diet with a lot of fruit and daily harmalas/large doses of melatonin led to all kinds of odd results, but generally an increase in sensitivity and easy access to increasingly weird hypnagogic states (I think @jamie noticed all this too, and then some)

Eventually I stopped taking harmalas so often, but noticed harmala-esque effects at night without taking it (the visual-stutter thing, swift hypnagogic states and a bit of euphoria etc). Not sure what did what really, but it definitely changed the architecture of thought in a somewhat permanent way that is much more visual. I think that's generally one thing that doesn't get talked about enough with harmalas - I would notice thought/ordinary day dreaming shift into the visual spectrum when relaxed enough. Then once I'd realize it was happening, it would slowly fade with eyes open, just like any other harmala-style vision.

Neuropharmacology of pineal secretions - PubMed

A connection between pineal function and several psychiatric diseases has been shown recently. The diurnal and seasonal rhythmicity of melatonin production is associated with affective disorders and several types of endogenous depression. The cortisolmelatonin ratio was significantly higher in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Regulation of rat pineal melatonin synthesis: effect of monoamine oxidase inhibition - PubMed

Inhibition of pineal monoamine oxidase (MAO) activity either by harmine or pargyline in adult male Sprague-Dawley rats housed in a 12 : 12 LD cycle resulted in increase pineal N-acetyltransferase (NAT) activity. Pineal MAO inhibition also increased pineal melatonin content, presumably as a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf030324h

Inhibition of Human Monoamine Oxidases A and B by Specialized Metabolites Present in Fresh Common Fruits and Vegetables - PMC

Diets rich in fruits and vegetables are associated with better psychological wellbeing and cognitive functions, although it is unclear which molecules and mechanisms are involved. One potential explanation is the inhibition of monoamine oxidases ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21190052/

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b03529

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Human_Health_Present_and_Future_Perspectives

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23137025/

 

[harmala_afficianado]

I took harmalas daily for a few years and ended up where less was more.

One love

Idk, i really enjoy those heavy doses, maybe i felt like there was alot to learn from them, that's why i kept taking them, i remember drinking 12g tea daily for 2-3 months, was absolute madness, i broke reality haha, eventually i went back to 4-5g though, and it still hits harder than ever.

I used those heavier amounts as steroids at some point, i would dose and feel intense urge to run the whole city and go lift the whole gym, no one would dare to mess with me, there is intense power that harmala gives, if you know how to harness it, you will be unstoppable.

Also i agree about the semi permenant effect part, different situations and different herbs taken would trigger different harmala visual effects at random times, i have just woke up right now and my phone screen is glitchy and tracing, i have strong hppd from rue, i like it though haha.

 

[Jamie01]

(I think @jamie noticed all this too, and then some)

Yes. To be fair I have been “endo-tripping” in the night my entire life. Whatever it is it is very tryptamine-like. I get sleep paralysis often and lucid dream frequently. It can happen more on nights when I’m having more sleep paralysis…but this tryptamines state happens outside of the paralysis while awake and able to move.

When I was drinking full doses of oral ayahuasca every week plus doing all that other stuff it got very weird and also unpleasant. This was not like a light DMT state though. I was having stuff happen in the night that was incredible. Once In the middle of the night I “fell” through the floor of my house and went down into the earth, into a crystalline city of advanced humans who are existing in some higher dimension or something. They gave me tours of this city, and I could literally come back to my body at will to get up go pee and then back into my bed…and then I would fall back down into this city. I could never repeat that experience. It was at least the weirdest “dream” experience I have had.

In the daytime I felt totally exhausted.

These things still happen but not to that extent.

 

[universecannon]

Sounds cool, but exhausting! Some of my most intense and bizarre states have been in dreams during that period. Not really sure how to describe them.