Food industry.

[Aeternus]

What do you think about it?
Should it be still running or can it be stopped?

 

[332211]

Sorry to tell you, but it is pretty much the same for humans.

 

[Swarupa]

I try to minimize the amount of meat that i eat and mostly go for wild caught seafood so i'm not supporting this kind of factory farming

Sometimes it really hits me how gross eating flesh is, othertimes it feels like the most nourishing food i could possibly eat :?:

 

[Koornut]

This company came out of a few graduates of the singularity university. Next stop: soilent green

http://www.modernmeadow.com/

 

[hixidom]

There's also roadkill.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

There's also roadkill.

I lived with a guy who'd eat roadkill, if the animal was right, and it was fresh enough. I do the vegetarian thing (80% of the way to vegan, but when I cut out milk, my weight crashed to unhealthy levels disconcertingly fast), so I didn't eat any, but apparently, it was pretty good.

On the whole factory farming thing: the meat/meat products industry is, in my opinion, one of the most abominable things that we do as a species, and absolutely needs to die. The sooner, the better. At the very least, we need to radically re-think how we consume meat, and (probably) cut it out as much as possible. When you look at the ethical, environmental, and health-related costs of how we raise chickens, pigs, and cows, it should be obvious why it's so deplorable.

That said, if you are someone who for, financial, cultural, or health related reasons, must eat meat, then you totally should, the whole idea of goose-stepping people into a diet is deeply messed up, BUT, if you are in a place where you think you could do it and remain healthy and financial stable, you should at least think about it.

Blessings
~ ND

Note: At the risk of being one of "those people," if you don't want to be supporting factory farming (which I think should be the goal of any empathetic person), you really need to go vegan - unless you're buying from local farms, the eggs you eat were laid by chickens that were kept in factory conditions. Sure, that specific egg was never attached to a living soul the way a chicken breast is, but the animal that produced it lived the same life, and probably died the same way. The same is true of milk and all dairy products.

 

[Aeternus]

There's also roadkill.

I lived with a guy who'd eat roadkill, if the animal was right, and it was fresh enough. I do the vegetarian thing (80% of the way to vegan, but when I cut out milk, my weight crashed to unhealthy levels disconcertingly fast), so I didn't eat any, but apparently, it was pretty good.

On the whole factory farming thing: the meat/meat products industry is, in my opinion, one of the most abominable things that we do as a species, and absolutely needs to die. The sooner, the better. At the very least, we need to radically re-think how we consume meat, and (probably) cut it out as much as possible. When you look at the ethical, environmental, and health-related costs of how we raise chickens, pigs, and cows, it should be obvious why it's so deplorable.

That said, if you are someone who for, financial, cultural, or health related reasons, must eat meat, then you totally should, the whole idea of goose-stepping people into a diet is deeply messed up, BUT, if you are in a place where you think you could do it and remain healthy and financial stable, you should at least think about it.

Blessings
~ ND

Note: At the risk of being one of "those people," if you don't want to be supporting factory farming (which I think should be the goal of any empathetic person), you really need to go vegan - unless you're buying from local farms, the eggs you eat were laid by chickens that were kept in factory conditions. Sure, that specific egg was never attached to a living soul the way a chicken breast is, but the animal that produced it lived the same life, and probably died the same way. The same is true of milk and all dairy products.

I think to go vegetarian or vegan diet but do not want to collapse the body. My greatest concern about those kinds of diet are proteins. Meat is the greatest source of proteins, it is not so healthy but hard to find good substitute. Perhaps it is just a habit passed on by generations and lack of knowledge about other products rich in proteins but in my case hard to find something else. Second source of proteins in my diet is mostly cheese white, yellow, etc. but it is not enough to replace meat completely. Could somebody who is already on vegetarian diet or has replaced meat successfully with other source of proteins write something about them? This is a common issue for many people and one of basic arguments that stand against vegetarian diet or cutting off the meat from your diet but I know that is illusive and mostly kept by addiction to red meat. Please share some helpful information.

This kind of procedure can be stopped only by deep transformation within human heart that will swallow the mind completely into the realm of unconditional love, understanding and compassion, that is true nature of reality but covered by our own shadow projections of fear, trauma and suffering, which justifies all unconscious aggression, violence and brutality.
Peace

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Beansprouts and lentils are both very high in protein: I try to eat those as often as possible. So are mushrooms, and other legumes (black beans, kidney beans, and chickpeas respectively). If you make sure you get at least one good helping of at least one of those per day, you should be alright. Lentil have 13.1 g of protein per 100 grams of total matter.

Broccoli, spinach, and kale are also very high in proteins.

You can also get vegan protein powders (I try to have some each morning, in a fruit smoothie), which can be another way to get enough protein.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Auxin]

I've been vegan for 5 years. In that time I've built up lots of muscle, gained more stamina and endurance than I ever had before, cured every medical problem I had, and just generally got a hell of a lot healthier.
I get my protein from.... everything I eat!
All living things have protein, and nearly all of them will supply enough of all essential amino acids provided your consuming enough calories. Sure, you'll get into trouble if you try to live on just white rice and oil, or a diet of nothing but african yams or improperly prepared tapioca root. But seriously, for all practical purposes as long as you avoid large amounts of refined oils and sugars you can eat anything and get enough protein.
Just register at cron-o-meter (its free) and input your daily food, it'll add up all the nutrients for you. Its quite useful.

If you dont want to blindly trust some strange kale eating hippie on a psychedelics forum, heres a certified medical doctor explaining in detail how a vegan diet with no junk food effectively guarantees adequate protein.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

One I forgot to mention:

Hemp seeds are one of the most protein-dense food items I've ever heard of: I can't reliably get them where I am, but a lot of people swear by a few tablespoons in a smoothie, or ground up.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Psybin]

One I forgot to mention:

Hemp seeds are one of the most protein-dense food items I've ever heard of: I can't reliably get them where I am, but a lot of people swear by a few tablespoons in a smoothie, or ground up.

Blessings
~ND

I've been curious, do you know if all of the proteins in meat are still found in the vegan alternatives you mentioned? As we are evolved as omnivores, I'm highly skeptical of any non-omnivorous diet. I personally feel that diets are like drugs: we know one which has stood the test of time. These newer diets like veganism and vegetarianism don't have 1million years of evidence supporting them like omnivorous diets. Not that I'm not open minded, I'd just be interested to find out if it's really as feasible as it's been made to seem.

Also, while it is true that all essential amino acids can be found in plant sources, would you agree that there is nothing wrong with hunting? I truly feel avoiding killing completely is foolish, considering humans are born to do it. I feel a great spiritual connection to my ancestors when I kill a deer or a rabbit for food. The same with fishing. Seafood and freshwater fish is so healthy and can be so ethical,why not embrace it?

 

[Psybin]

Also, I really don't believe you can appreciate what life truly is and how precious it is until you've taken one.

 

[○]

One I forgot to mention:

Hemp seeds are one of the most protein-dense food items I've ever heard of: I can't reliably get them where I am, but a lot of people swear by a few tablespoons in a smoothie, or ground up.

Blessings
~ND

I've been curious, do you know if all of the proteins in meat are still found in the vegan alternatives you mentioned? As we are evolved as omnivores, I'm highly skeptical of any non-omnivorous diet. I personally feel that diets are like drugs: we know one which has stood the test of time. These newer diets like veganism and vegetarianism don't have 1million years of evidence supporting them like omnivorous diets. Not that I'm not open minded, I'd just be interested to find out if it's really as feasible as it's been made to seem.

Also, while it is true that all essential amino acids can be found in plant sources, would you agree that there is nothing wrong with hunting? I truly feel avoiding killing completely is foolish, considering humans are born to do it. I feel a great spiritual connection to my ancestors when I kill a deer or a rabbit for food. The same with fishing. Seafood and freshwater fish is so healthy and can be so ethical,why not embrace it?

I agree. Simply, life consumes life, whether it's humans-plants, plants-insects, insects-plants, humans-animals, etc; more or less to varying degrees; it's inescapable really. It's the nature of life itself.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

I've been curious, do you know if all of the proteins in meat are still found in the vegan alternatives you mentioned? As we are evolved as omnivores, I'm highly skeptical of any non-omnivorous diet. I personally feel that diets are like drugs: we know one which has stood the test of time. These newer diets like veganism and vegetarianism don't have 1million years of evidence supporting them like omnivorous diets. Not that I'm not open minded, I'd just be interested to find out if it's really as feasible as it's been made to seem.

Also, while it is true that all essential amino acids can be found in plant sources, would you agree that there is nothing wrong with hunting? I truly feel avoiding killing completely is foolish, considering humans are born to do it. I feel a great spiritual connection to my ancestors when I kill a deer or a rabbit for food. The same with fishing. Seafood and freshwater fish is so healthy and can be so ethical,why not embrace it?

. . .

Also, I really don't believe you can appreciate what life truly is and how precious it is until you've taken one.

A few things:
You seem to be suggesting that there is some 'optimal' diet, that is better than alternatives (in this case, being an omnivore), a healthiest option. I would say that health is largely relative, and dependent on it's cultural context. If I were living out in the Savannah, surviving in a hunter-gatherer way of life, then yes, I'd probably need the meat for quick protein, energy, and for a lack of other options. However, I do not (and don't really foresee myself) live in that kind of style. It's true that we evolved to eat meat, but evolution prepared us for a very, very different lifestyle than we have right now. Consequently, what was optimal then, may not be optimal now.

Is it possible that, if I was eating meat, I might be able to run a little faster, lift a little more, or bike a little farther? Sure, but life is all about making those trade-offs, and those extra elements of fitness are something I'm willing to sacrifice for my beliefs. I can tell you that I'm healthy enough to keep me (and my NP) happy, and I can do the things I love to do (which includes running, white water kayaking, and my job, which I'll touch in a minute, that generally requires you to be in pretty good shape).

Vegetarianism also isn't some 'newfangled thing' the hippies made up: there are Eastern faiths that make vegetarianism part of their spiritual practice going back hundreds of years (Jain commandments of vegetarianism date back to the 5th or 6th century and the classical Greeks practiced their own vegetarian practice. Hindus have been doing it at least that long as well). The idea of 'meat as a staple' is more of a cultural construct than you might think. Given that the Jainists, Hindus, and Buddhists are still alive, and kicking (in the case of the last two, making up a sizable percentage of the global population), I would say that it's not too hard to believe that one can be healthy and successful while abstaining from meat products, in the right environment, that is.

You can get all the necessary vitamins, amino acids, and minerals from a vegetarian or vegan diet. There are plenty of folks who live this way for years, and even decades (some, their whole lives), and live happy, productive lives. It takes a bit more planning, and mindfulness of one's eating habits, but I would posit that we could all stand to be a bit more mindful of our diets, whatever diet you personally choose to follow.

I will acknowledge a big difference between factory farming, and hunting your own wild food. I don't think anyone here could make a cogent argument that the kind of suffering that happens in a factory meat farm is ethically justifiable in any way. I certainly hope not. Regardless of where the meat comes from, however, the extra pleasure I might get from eating a rasher of bacon (God, I miss bacon...) is not, in my mind, worth the suffering, and death that comes to the pig. If I eat the bacon, I will enjoy it, finish it, and later find that I want more bacon: hunger is insatiable, and more pigs would grow and die to feed that hunger. I am willing to remain hungry for bacon, because my desire in this case is not as important as the life and well-being of the animal. If I were starving, maybe things would change, but right now, I have the good fortune to be privileged enough that I can still be healthy and happy, while not consuming animal products (with the exception of milk, which I am trying to find a good replacement for).

As for suffering, there is more to this discussion than I can articulate here, but I try to live my life in accordance with the principle of minimizing suffering for all things. Suffering will inevitably happen, it is built into our world, and while I try to be accepting of the existence of suffering as a necessary part of existing, that doesn't mean that I won't go out of my way to avoid causing more suffering (isn't there already enough), or to help alleviate suffering when I find it (which is why I do the work I do, both professionally, and academically). It is very easy to rationalize causing suffering, we as a species are very, very good at it, but just imagine how you'd feel if someone was trying to rationalize making you suffer. You'd be a lot less thrilled, I think. I would posit that vegetarianism is a natural outgrowth of cultivating a sense of empathy and compassion.

Lastly, on the subject of the preciousness of life, I work as an EMT, which is how I pay the bills and put myself through school. Whenever I go on the clock, I'm confronted with the preciousness and fragility of life. I don't need to kill a deer to see death in the flesh. Car accidents, drug overdoses, and all manner of physical and mental traumas have done more than enough work on showing me the fragile beauty of life. I've seen some stuff I wish I could un-see. Confronting that preciousness and fragility in the face can hurt, more than can be believed.

You say you can't understand it till you've taken it: I would respond by saying that you can't understand it till you've tried to save it.

Blessings
~ND

 

[inaniel]

great post, nathanial.dread, one of the best i've read in the numerous other threads which tend to arise regarding meat consumption/vegetarianism.




Also, a quick note on hemp seeds/protein: it is my favorite protein, but unfortunately it is not complete as it has very little lysine. Easy to get that from lentils and pumpkin seeds, though.

 

[Psilosopher?]

I've been a veggie for a while. I still eat eggs. I rarely eat dairy products. I have my own chickens, that lay a good amount of eggs.

My sense of taste is almost turned off, for me. I don't go for delicious food. I eat to live, I don't live to eat. So, I don't eat desserts or junk food. I eat lots of fruit and veggies. The main source of protein for me is almonds, tofu and eggs.

The reason I turned veggie is because this world over-consumes everything, meat being a biggie. The amount of burgers people eat, and a meaty dinner. Am I opposed to the consumption of meat? No. What I am opposed to is the over indulgence of taste buds. Some people have reacted quite badly when I told them I don't care about food. I can still appreciate good food, but to them it sounded like I hated food.

Food is for sustenance. I get my satisfaction from other things in life.

 

[Auxin]

If you ate nothing but hemp seeds for a day and consumed exactly as many calories as you burned you would get 183% of the recommended total protein and, yes, lysine is the least abundant essential amino acid- you would only get 267% as much as you need :lol:
White rice is often considered the worst offender in both protein and lysine status. But still, if you ate just white rice and only as much calories as you burned you'd get 80% the recommended protein (a recommendation designed to be enough for 99% of the population, ie. 100% is more than most people would need) and youd get 102% the recommended lysine.
Do brown rice instead and youd get 90% protein and 121% lysine.

As for historical vegetarianism, Nathanial. was wrong, jainism dates back to ~600 BC, not AD. It started up roughly the same time as buddhism- perhaps a decade earlier, and buddhism is 2600 years old. Jains are in the earliest strata of buddhist texts and a few people are in both the oldest buddhists texts and the oldest jain texts- the nun Baddha Kundalakesa, for instance. Earliest buddhism did not enforce veganism, or even lacto-vegetarianism (the way some later buddhist schools did) but it always, from the very start, very strongly discouraged the killing of any animal. To working class and poor farmers that would, by default, at least make them lacto-vegetarian most of the time.
Numerous asian cultures have been largely vegetarian for thousands of years and most native american cultures were predominantly vegetarian until contact overturned their societies (an interesting article on that can be found [here]. There are even native american vegetarian revivalist movements popping up to combat the horrifying epidemics of diabetes theyre facing today.

The modern penchant for 3 meals a day, meat at every meal, and refined junk food in abundance is far more abnormal in human history than vegetarianism.

 

[○]

Great thread.

Im going to copy and paste what I wrote in another food related thread. This particular posting isn't geared towards anyone in this thread, so please don't look at it that way; just some of my own thoughts on the generalization of hunters/hunting and people that have/may speak against it.

Kind of a sidenote here; i've talked with several people in my life that would snub their nose against the idea that I would ever consider to hunt - say a deer, or something similar, saying that it's barbaric, or that im not very aware or conscious of what im doing, when in reality - in nature - that animal had led an excellent life, grazing in the expanse of the natural world; not pinned up in a systematic slaughterhouse, tortured, fed hormones and whathaveyou and then sent to brightly colored packaging in the local grocery store. I hope these people realize that that deer or whathaveyou, eventually will be killed/consumed - whether by a pack of wolves, coyotes, a bear, old age, natural death, etc; and that the chances of it's death upon my hands is in the same ballpark as if it were to die otherwise. Realizing that something had to die to sustain something else is Life. Life consumes Life ..no matter what semantics or ideals you attempt to attach. That is Life; point blank.

The funny thing about these various statements that people make regarding this is that while they sit there and point the finger so to speak, they are driving around in their leather appointed seats, have a purse or shoes made from animal hide, facial products, so on and so forth, made from the systematic torture of millions of animals. I tend to find that fairly hypocritical and 'not very conscious' - if they want to throw those terms around. Even so, aside from those products I listed above - most people that say these things don't realize that they themselves, on some level, are participating in the systematic mindless slaughter via things they may own/eat/wear/etc; the nails go very deep - often out of sight.

To be intimately connected with Death, to feel it, to feel the emotions it produces in the act of killing another animal is something very few will ever do or understand; there's feelings there that transcend petty discussion of the matter. A deep found gratitude and respect; a reverence - something that most people that blindly point the finger can't fully grasp; something that most people in our culture are lacking to some degree.

(this isnt pointed at anyone here; just speaking from personal experience; love you guys)

Here's a great poem by Khalil Gibran; one that strikes home on my thoughts.

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.​

 

[inaniel]

If you ate nothing but hemp seeds for a day and consumed exactly as many calories as you burned you would get 183% of the recommended total protein and, yes, lysine is the least abundant essential amino acid- you would only get 267% as much as you need :lol:

i find difficulty eating nine tablespoons of hemp seeds a day, couldn't possibly imagine eating 45 tablespoons.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Great thread.

Im going to copy and paste what I wrote in another food related thread. This particular posting isn't geared towards anyone in this thread, so please don't look at it that way; just some of my own thoughts on the generalization of hunters/hunting and people that have/may speak against it.

Kind of a sidenote here; i've talked with several people in my life that would snub their nose against the idea that I would ever consider to hunt - say a deer, or something similar, saying that it's barbaric, or that im not very aware or conscious of what im doing, when in reality - in nature - that animal had led an excellent life, grazing in the expanse of the natural world; not pinned up in a systematic slaughterhouse, tortured, fed hormones and whathaveyou and then sent to brightly colored packaging in the local grocery store. I hope these people realize that that deer or whathaveyou, eventually will be killed/consumed - whether by a pack of wolves, coyotes, a bear, old age, natural death, etc; and that the chances of it's death upon my hands is in the same ballpark as if it were to die otherwise. Realizing that something had to die to sustain something else is Life. Life consumes Life ..no matter what semantics or ideals you attempt to attach. That is Life; point blank.

The funny thing about these various statements that people make regarding this is that while they sit there and point the finger so to speak, they are driving around in their leather appointed seats, have a purse or shoes made from animal hide, facial products, so on and so forth, made from the systematic torture of millions of animals. I tend to find that fairly hypocritical and 'not very conscious' - if they want to throw those terms around. Even so, aside from those products I listed above - most people that say these things don't realize that they themselves, on some level, are participating in the systematic mindless slaughter via things they may own/eat/wear/etc; the nails go very deep - often out of sight.

To be intimately connected with Death, to feel it, to feel the emotions it produces in the act of killing another animal is something very few will ever do or understand; there's feelings there that transcend petty discussion of the matter. A deep found gratitude and respect; a reverence - something that most people that blindly point the finger can't fully grasp; something that most people in our culture are lacking to some degree.

(this isnt pointed at anyone here; just speaking from personal experience; love you guys)

Here's a great poem by Khalil Gibran; one that strikes home on my thoughts.

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.​

Again, I reject that idea that killing is the only way to intimately connect with Death - I feel like I get enough of that working with the severely sick, injured, and, sometimes, dying. I don't need to slit the throat of a deer to see the beauty and fragility of life. I see more of that than might be absolutely healthy. Maybe that is not an option for everyone, but if you feel like you need to intimately engage with death, maybe look into ways that you can expose yourself to it that do not require killing. Volunteer at a hospice, for example. Get EMT certified and ride the ambulances.

As for those who talk the talk but do not walk the walk, I have very little to say to them beyond to point out their hypocrisy.

Blessings
~ND