Gender on the Nexus

[Nathanial.Dread]

This is way bigger than just some internet phenomenon.

I would posit that the concept that is being discussed here, without actually acknowledging it, is patriarchy.

The "assumed maleness" that's being discussed is endemic of patriarchy, as is the hostility towards women, ominous sexual overtones, sexually intimidating memes, etc.

To loosely quote the tumblr format:

Patriarchy. The thing you are talking about is patriarchy.

A few, hastily compiled, resources on Patriarchy:
Feminist Class Struggle
Patriarchy, Civilization, And The Origins Of Gender
The Patriarchal Science of the Corporate Media
To Abolish Rape, Overthrow Male Desire
The Revolt of Adam & Eve: A Green Anarcha-Feminist Perspective

Thank you for bringing Patriarchy into the conversation, and those are some great links.
I was afraid to bring it up, as it is often a ridiculed concept, but hopefully The Nexians are evolved enough to be able to engage in effective critical social inquiry.

Blessings
~ND

 

[thymamai]

I'm not even going to assume my input is wanted at this point. Just want to say excellent replies, everyone. Incredibly good sense of humor is what attracts me to this place. The information abounding but icing on the cake.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

Wow, I started this thread with the intent to poke fun at the idea that we never really know who we are talking to, and how gender kind of becomes extraneous over the forum. Then this thing got real!

I can dig it. 8)

I definitely agree with others that it would be nice to have a greater female presence, and if there is ANY site that could herbor good relations between people of different genders, I would hope this is it.


I also agree it may be a result of patriarchy that makes people think others are male, but it is also likely just habit. You get used to talking to other males, and just quit consciously thinking about it, which was what my goal was this whole time! I wanted to make people conscious of it, like I became by chance.

This site never ceases to amaze!

 

[SnozzleBerry]

So...here's the thing...and I promise I will try to be as gentle about this as possible.

I'm not trying to upset anyone...I'm not trying to offend anyone...I'm not trying to spoil a good time.

That said...

Things that strike many of us as "just habit" are actually culturally ingrained/indoctrinated patterns of behavior that tie-in to larger cultural constructs/frameworks.

Look at the "doctor riddle" posted earlier in this thread. This "riddle" only operates as such because of patriarchy, because of the assumption that a doctor must be male. To those who would protest and say that it's actually because most doctors are male, well...why do you think that is? Most doctors are male because of a cultural system that systematically prevents and discredits women from entering "serious" professions, this is patriarchy.

I'd actually like to take the examination of the "doctor riddle" one step further. Not only does the presentation of the "doctor" translate to "male doctor" in many people's minds, but take a second to think about the race of the doctor. Odds are "he" was also "white." This isn't an accident, look at the world around you, look at what's projected as far as racial and gender roles across much of global consumer culture. Seeing people in certain roles, on tv, the internet, in print media, etc. has a tangible effect on the preconceptions and conceptualizations we create for ourselves on a day-to-day basis.

The reason I'm bringing this up is not to make people feel guilt or shame, but because only by calling attention to these cultural constructs, examining them, and working to deconstruct them can we work towards the abolition of patriarchy and white supremacy. If we don't call it out and address it, it will continue to dominate and oppress people, in both overt and latent manners. Imo, this is part of what the psychedelic experience is about, deconstructing ourselves and the world around us in order to learn and put those learnings into practice.

Some people may protest that they are just "having fun" or "joking around" or "being a guy" (or a dude or a bro or w/e terminology they might choose). The thing is, these actions have tangible effects, which have already been observed earlier in this thread (i.e. why women avoid forums, etc.). We have had female Nexians complain about hostile environments that have appeared on this site when groups of men have been "playing around." Even in this thread, I had to remove a sexually abusive meme that is a common internet-ism. My guess is that the poster meant no ill-will, but the posting of that was incredibly offensive and domineering.

The point of all of this is to say that it's not for men to determine what level of androcentricity or patriarchy is acceptable to enforce on non-men, or society at large. When I see the domination of patriarchy replicated on the Nexus, it pains me in a major way, as I feel that psychedelics have the power to catalyze an acute awareness of these kinds of issues and our behaviors in relation to them. I'm not here to chastise or scold anyone, but I would sincerely ask, from the bottom of my heart, that anyone reading this take some time to think about this in as deep and reflective a manner as they are able to.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

Perhaps habit was the wrong word...

My point was that statistically, it is very likely that who ever I am dealing with on this site is a male. So, the mind being geared towards pattern recongition will more or less automatically assume it's talking to another male, if 9 out of 10 people it has talked to are male.

Now, why is there so many males on the Nexus? Probably patriarchy. I really hate the whole idea about how women should always be sweet, kind, gentle, and polite just like little princesses. Thanks, Disney. It does EVERYONE a disservice. So, more men are drawn to the somehwat risky world of illegals substances and psyche manipulation, because we have been allowed that freedom.

I also think there are some inherent differences caused by biology. By and large, men are drawn towards more risky behavior. There is a reason male prisoners outnumber female by many times. There is a reason that there are far more base jumping males than females. From a practical standpoint, we are more expendable compared to women, who bear the children. In almost every culture in the world, the men perform the more risky jobs, and I think this was caused by evolutionary pressure. I don't think biology can be overlooked when looking at certain human behaviors.

So, in short, I agree with you. Patriarchy is a pretty crappy thing, it does a disservice to all, and it has a lot to do (maybe fully to do) with how men outnuber women in important career fields, extreme sports, and the Nexus. I don't think it is always the full story, though. Women often make different choices about their careers, life, and so on, than men because they often think about things differently. In magnitude, the minds of men and women are equal, in process we are sometimes different and almost always complimentary. To me, the sources of these differences are often hard to distinguish.

I agree that it should be pointed out wherever patriarchy occurs, and that is why I felt like starting this thread. My take is to try to solve problems with humor, which has a way of tearing down people's walls without them even being aware. As this thread is no longer humorous, maybe it belongs in another subforum.

 

[null24]

Snozz, Good points, well spoken, all. It is an unrefutable fact-to put it bluntly-that the world hates women. What did John Lennon say...?

To this day, women in the Sudan are subjected to horrible clitorectomy surgeries in the name of tradition, and many die as a result. One of the saddest things about that is that women are often the ones who perform the surgeries. Being born female in many countries can literally be a death sentence.

When you make it over to the"first world", where we are sensitive and liberated from such atrocious conditions, you have things like these conversations taking place among men who don't really want to subjugate women, who mean well in other words, but nonetheless post offensive memes. (I did not see, and hopefully didn't post, the comment in question you had to remove,snozz.)

I was checking out an at exhibit by a woman named Sophia Wallace called cliteracy and one of my favorite quotes from it is something along the lines of "freedom in a society can be measured by the distribution of orgasms." That may sound vulgar to some, but think about our attitudes towards sex. Not just in the again,"first world" societies,.but across the world. I've heard several anecdotes from guys who have been to war in Iraq and Afghanistan who were amazed at open displays of male homosexuality in these hyper-religious countries that was engaged in to preserve the "purity" of the women. The world hates women,.and is scared of them too. If we allowed women the same freedoms we as men enjoy, sexually and otherwise, what else would they take from us? I could also point out the republican rhetoric here in my country, the US,.where we have entertainers like HeWhoShallNotBeVindicatedByBeingNamed on the radio who routinely compares women engaging in any kind of sexual freedom as whores and any in a struggle for equality with nazis. And where privileged white men think they have some kind of right-a moral obligation even-to dictate what a woman can and cannot do with her own body's reproductive system.

Face it, it comes down to what's between our legs. Do you deposit or grow? We need wombs to preserve our species, but dammit, we aren't just gonna let you do with it what you want. All of our struggles, from gender issues, to gay rights, to being able to freaking smoke pot, have to do with one group, who is often woefully ignorant and dogmatic, wanting to control what another can do-and usually out of fear.

When it comes to us, the Nexus, I don't know how you, or you, or you reading this feel, I don't know how you treat the women in your lives-I hope as said above that the psychedelic influence in all of our lives has helped us to move into more understanding and compassionate relationships with them, but I find it unlikely that any of us could say we don't have work to do. I do however think that in the spirit of Mr.P's OP, that most people who want to break plants down by exposing them them to various acidic and caustic solutions in order to pull out the most concentrated form of that which gets you stoned within would happen to be male. Just sayin. Maybe that's a "phalluscy" on my part, I don't know.

I apologize for the rambling nature of this post, it's really just a collection of disjointed thoughts culled from an early Saturday mornings stoned and caffeinating mind, but maybe there's some food for thought somewhere in here. I'd love to see a greater female presence here on the nexus-but alas don't think too many are really that intersected in what we do. Maybe the end result, of expanded consciousness and better living through (underground) chemistry, but not the process.. I think women help to guide men to the right actions, they are like the feet of a society, while men are the hands. Feet guide us to a place of action, while the hands complete that action. (ugh, I mean that strictly on strictly esoteric terms, not that women should not perform any given thing, again,ugh, for having to say that.)

Peace y'all, call your mother and tell her you love her. We all have one of those women in out life and can start there.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

more men are drawn to the somehwat risky world of illegals substances and psyche manipulation, because we have been allowed that freedom.

I would say, even more than "allowed that freedom," we have been, to varying degrees, encouraged to pursue that freedom. And I would like to use your observation here to gently push back against some of the statements in your following paragraphs

By and large, men are drawn towards more risky behavior.

Perhaps, but I don't think you can split off nature from nurture here, imo. And the fact is, men are encouraged to pursue riskier behavior by society at large.

There is a reason male prisoners outnumber female by many times.

I think that there are far too many sociocultural variables at play with regards to the nature of policing, the criminal "justice" system, and the prison-industrial complex to make this statement in general, and certainly with regards to gender roles.

There is a reason that there are far more base jumping males than females...In almost every culture in the world, the men perform the more risky jobs, and I think this was caused by evolutionary pressure.

I would point to your earlier statement regarding Disney indoctrination (while positing it's much more widespread than Disney, but I get that you were making a jocular point) and state that chalking this up to biology is a pretty large (and poorly evidenced) jump to make, when systems of patriarchy stretch back thousands of years. It's hard to conclude that evolutionary pressure is the driving force behind these differences when we are talking about social roles within patriarchal societies.

Women often make different choices about their careers, life, and so on, than men because they often think about things differently.

Again, all of this happens within a cultural context of patriarchy. Social phenomena are influenced by social constructs and frameworks.

I don't disagree that men and women (and everyone "in between") have assorted biological and physiological differences. However, the points raised in this thread strike me as having clear links to sociocultural phenomena rather than biological ones. Frankly, I don't have enough biological understanding to address the points you raise about childbearing making women less expendable, so I won't attempt to (it does however, take two to tango, and you could make the argument that either party is "expendable" after their necessary biological role has been fulfilled).

However, when it comes down to culturally assigned and influenced roles, I think it's a mistake to search for biological underpinnings. Imo, Occam's razor dictates that the sociocultural phenomenon of patriarchy (and its systems of domination and oppression) is a more likely culprit than biology, as it is a much simpler/straightforward explanation for these observed differences.

Many pseudoscientific models, such as phrenology and the medical diagnosis of drapetomania claimed biological validity in order to subject African slaves to horrors and atrocities. I would caution folks from making similar biologically-justified arguments when it comes to the justification of the subjugation of non-men. I'm not saying that anyone is arguing for such subjugation, just that people should be aware of the ways in which biology and seemingly scientific models can be used to dominate and oppress.

null-24, I was not addressing your post, don't worry

 

[null24]

I know snozz, I was just making a funny at my own expense.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I know snozz, I was just making a funny at my own expense.

:lol:

whoops...missed that

 

[Metanoia]

Some people may protest that they are just "having fun" or "joking around" or "being a guy" (or a dude or a bro or w/e terminology they might choose). The thing is, these actions have tangible effects, which have already been observed earlier in this thread (i.e. why women avoid forums, etc.). We have had female Nexians complain about hostile environments that have appeared on this site when groups of men have been "playing around." Even in this thread, I had to remove a sexually abusive meme that is a common internet-ism. My guess is that the poster meant no ill-will, but the posting of that was incredibly offensive and domineering.

I have to apologize for posting that. To be honest, I was poking fun at "nerds" or sexually frustrated males in general, more so than females. And you skillfully mention my haphazard excuse... "boys will be boys"

I really did not mean to offend, and I obviously do not agree with male domineering behavior in the least. I do see now how it was offensive, however.

Patriarchy is something that has bothered me since before I even understood it. I've always been galled by the subjugation of females. The inequality and domineering nonsense. I've never had a truly healthy relationship with a female because I tend to overcompensate in the opposite direction...taking on the submissive role and allowing them to dominate me. Most women do tend to enjoy that, and I don't blame them in the least. Having all these cultural norms and socially accepted behaviors forced upon them from childhood. A chance to reverse the roles and take out some of their frustration on a male is usually met with exuberance and glee :lol:

As this was in the humor section I suppose I didn't thoroughly think out my response. Again, I do apologize, as "I was just kidding bro" doesn't suffice as a legitimate excuse. There is no excuse for patriarchal behavior IMO. The women's liberation movement began not that long ago, and we still have a long way to go until true equality exists in our society. We all need to think about the effects our actions and words may have in regards to bringing gender equality to fruition or hampering the efforts of those who have worked hard to see it come to realization.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

Very interesting, indeed.

Snozz,
I think your arguments are very sound, and if I am understanding you correctly, its that the influence of patriarchy by far is the dominant force here, and really the only one we can do anything about anyway.

I suppose I just have a natural tendency to rebel against black and white type of thinking, because things are seldom so simple.

So, I have to ask, can we ever reach a truly egalitarian society? Is it possible to overcome the incredibly far back reaching influence of patriarchy, which is still deeply imbedded in our society?

Is it also possible for some gender roles to actually be of benefit? Or, is it simply the imbedded patriarchal thinking in me that makes me wonder that?

 

[thymamai]

Snozzle Berry, much of this you are embellishing at extent without driving any clear, readily legible points, that you come across very contradictory. If there is a reason for stretching out to such length, I would expect it to be at least as recognizable as the henpecking nature of it's content. I also feel that a lot of zeal could be held for the author of said offensive post which you deleted. It is a topic of discussion old as the hills and to be handled with kid gloves wherever possible. That said, you have also been very informative and that is something we all expect from moderation.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Metanaoia, thank you for your thoughtful words and apology. I really appreciate the degree to which people on this site are willing to have open and honest discussions about these kinds of things...it's part of what makes this place so special, I think.

Snozz,
I think your arguments are very sound, and if I am understanding you correctly, its that the influence of patriarchy by far is the dominant force here, and really the only one we can do anything about anyway.

I do believe so

I suppose I just have a natural tendency to rebel against black and white type of thinking, because things are seldom so simple.

I wouldn't consider it simple or black and white (but then again, I'm mired in my own perspective). I find the social evidence to be a much more holistic and interconnected model of oppression than the biological evidence.

So, I have to ask, can we ever reach a truly egalitarian society? Is it possible to overcome the incredibly far back reaching influence of patriarchy, which is still deeply imbedded in our society?

To quote a good friend of mine, "We dream of Utopias not because we might actually get there one day, but because of the things that such visions do for us in daily life." I don't think the end is important, in that, will there ever truly be an end? Some point of stasis beyond which things will cease to change? I think the act of working towards a vision is the best we can do in this mortal realm.

Is it also possible for some gender roles to actually be of benefit? Or, is it simply the imbedded patriarchal thinking in me that makes me wonder that?

I don't know...I would imagine there are arguments both ways.

Snozzle Berry, much of this you are embellishing at extent without driving any clear, readily legible points, that you come across very contradictory. If there is a reason for stretching out to such length, I would expect it to be at least as recognizable as the henpecking nature of it's content

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Other people seem to understand what I'm attempting to articulate. I feel like I've laid things out clearly, but I'm happy to clarify, if that's not the case. Could you elaborate upon what you mean?

 

[Mr.Peabody]

To quote a good friend of mine, "We dream of Utopias not because we might actually get there one day, but because of the things that such visions do for us in daily life." I don't think the end is important, in that, will there ever truly be an end? Some point of stasis beyond which things will cease to change? I think the act of working towards a vision is the best we can do in this mortal realm.

I like it! :thumb_up:
Thank you for your wise words.

 

[jbark]

I understand all the arguments for it being a patriarchal "habit" to assume that most here are male. But the fact is that the overwhelming majority are, perhaps due to patriarchal encouragement of males to seek out and exercise freedoms, perhaps not. I tend to think it is a bit of a stretch to assert so, but I accept it as a possibility. Ultimately though, I disagree with calling patriarchal an assumption that most are males here when in fact the overwhelming majority are actually male. That's what assumptions and generalizations are for, and there is nothing inherently wrong with them. It is how we understand the world. Assuming you are exchanging words with a male when there is, let's say, a 95% chance that you are, is just called a safe bet in my books. If it turns out you are wrong, well, it is then patriarchal to make the exception feel inferior, unwelcome or unwanted. Is it also patriarchal to be even more welcoming, to single them out as exceptions and value their input by virtue of their difference?

Besides, does my assuming that most I exchange with here are male actually change anything in the way I view them or converse with them? It would be a hard sell to convince me so.

Cheers,

JBArk

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Jbark, I agree that the majority that post here are males. I agree that there is a logic to the maleness assumption on this forum.

Perhaps my pointing to that was, in part, to help highlight some of the more problematic views regarding the exclusionary culture of many places to congregate on the internet. The points about androcentricity were to highlight some of the conceptualizations present in the "surgeon riddle."

There have been a number of incidents on this forum and in the chat where female members of this community have expressed feelings of discomfort or harassment, only to have those statements ignored, dismissed, and/or ridiculed. Imo, such attitudes evidence more than a logical assumption that many on this site are male, and venture into an androcentricity that demands acceptance of its presence from those it mistreats.

To explain my comments on this thread: I saw what started as a seemingly well-intentioned thread veering into arenas that I find troubling (and that members have addressed as distressing in the past), so I attempted to interject with what I thought to be a largely unconsidered, but relevant perspective.

 

[Michal_R]

Well written, Snoz. Thank you.

 

[Jungleheart]

Taking a risk posting as someone who'll perhaps be recognized as female, because I'm not capable of "speaking for women" or anything like that. To me, a major part of being "enlightened" is being open minded. That means not making assumptions, based on statistics or past experience or anything. By keeping an open mind, we make space for other people to express themselves (no matter the gender) and maybe learn something we wouldn't expect.

 

[obliguhl]

Gender is a cultural identity heavily enforced by the culture at large, most often based on biological markers. IF you think about it, while gender is fluid in theory, it is in reality some sort of racist dictatorship. Personally, i'm kinda tired of the whole gender thing...and the whole religion thing and the science thing.

I feel it's best to look at what other people have to offer, not what gender they are.

 

[Michal_R]

...Personally, i'm kinda tired of the whole gender thing...and the whole religion thing and the science thing...

I absolutely agree - I am also "tired" of the whole thing. Yet at the same time I am fully aware that we live in a society which is literally "based on" gender inequalities. That is what prevents me from forgetting or ignoring the whole thing.