Gender on the Nexus

[soulfood]

So in this patriarchal society, why do I as a man... a WHITE man, have nothing to show for it?

I want resolve!

You deserve it becasue your both white, and a man!

Often these types of discussions resort to double standards and reverse sexism..but that is something that a lot of people dont like to hear or deal with. There is tons of male oppression in our culture..

Innit!

I actually feel completely on the end of the poopy stick

I think of it as Alpha-Woman-Beta.

I'm probably in camp beta, it's an alpha's world and he'd rather have girls on his planet than beta's. So they say I should become a politician, a lawyer or a priest to acheieve recognisable beta power... not this little man!

 

[jamie]

the oppression of the sacred masculine is as powerful as the oppression of the sacred feminine..and much of the roles women played in the past in germanic culture were magical and beautiful and have been dismissed as something else by certain feminist groups. I used to feel more associated with the general feminist movement but I found too much reverse sexist male hatred etc..peaking with Dianic Wiccan groups who refuse to breastfeed male children as they are deemed unworthy etc..it's as rediculous as what they claim to be against. Thankfully not all Danic Wiccans are alike.

I guess to me feminism means something much deeper and more profound than just anti male propeganda in a movement seeded in part by the same organization that funded MK ULTRA. Of course feminism as a movement is older than that and still valid, but aspects of it have been tainted and distorted.

Europe is/was not the middle east either. The oppression against women is alot heavier in certain places..old world europe was a goddess cult at one point..so was the east..and then other religious values took over..and look at how women were treated once the catholic church invaded europe. The role of women in pre-colonial europe was very different.

 

[Pandora]

Racist, sexist, homophobic, atheist hatred, and other attitudes that manifest ignorance and hate are things that come unattached to race, gender, orientation, religion, etc. But, oppression does not. Please do not mistake the two. Just look at history as well as ongoing attitudes. Our refusal as a species to do this are digging deep holes. When the revolutionaries finally do break your family door in will you be embraced as part of the new world or villified (or worse) as part of the old? I am not sure about myself, but I am for the likes of Nemo and Snozzleberry.

I am so sorry for all the oppressed, Christian background (family not personal belief) men. Oh how you have been stepped on, oppressed, held down, told someone like you could never accomplish your dreams. Oh the horrors of 'reverse sexism and racism,' oh yes when the future centuries look back upon this time YOU will be seen as the folks who could have saved it all if not for all those irksome N and C word 'people.'

Be happy. Many of us are so burned out we are shutting up, okay?

 

[proto-pax]

I'm really not sure where all this is coming from, it's pretty obvious that women are treated as second class citizens across the board. Current employer has told me as much regarding hiring decisions, body language instilled in girls vs boys at a yooung age body image issues that are so rampant in our culture. It's absolutely a huge deal, I call inanimate objects he sometimes. That's how ingrained it is.

Default = male.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

So...

The thing is...

Reverse sexism isn't really a thing...neither is reverse racism.

What I mean by this is that, in our society, within dominant culture, racism and sexism are not the most accurate descriptors of the dominant forms of oppression that manifest in systemic manners.

The dominant forms of oppression that manifest in systemic manners are Patriarchy and White Supremacy.

It's late and I'm tired, so I will resort to mailing it in with the following quotes (apologies):

White supremacy is the operationalized form of racism in the United States and throughout the world. Racism is like the generic product name, while white supremacy is the leading brand, with far and away the greatest market share.

As an ideology, racism is the belief that population groups, defined as distinct “races,” generally possess traits, characteristics or abilities, which distinguish them as either superior or inferior to other groups in certain ways. In short, racism is the belief that a particular race is (or certain races are) superior or inferior to another race or races.

As a system, racism is an institutional arrangement, maintained by policies, practices and procedures — both formal and informal — in which some persons typically have more or less opportunity than others, and in which such persons receive better or worse treatment than others, because of their respective racial identities. Additionally, institutional racism involves denying persons opportunities, rewards, or various benefits on the basis of race, to which those individuals are otherwise entitled. In short, racism is a system of inequality, based on race...

[To reiterate] White supremacy is the operationalized form of racism in the United States and throughout the world. Racism is like the generic product name, while white supremacy is the leading brand, with far and away the greatest market share.

So, as that quote focused on white supremacy/racism, here's another quote to highlight what I'm talking about with regards to patriarchy/sexism:

Now, I often get told that stereotypes of men or the behaviour expected from them can be described as reverse-sexism. For example:

-Men being thought of as unmanly or rude if they don’t pay on a date or open a door
-Having specific women’s groups in government or ‘women’s rights’ organisations
-Male sexuality viewed as uncontrollable and compulsive, depicting men as ‘wild beasts’

Although these issues hurt men, they are not oppressed by them. Being oppressed depends on your personal power being taken away by the acceptance and affirmation of a system which inflicts mistreatment on a group. From laws to social beliefs, oppression serves to justify this treatment and invalidate the experiences of people who are oppressed. Even though the issues which affect men are important, what is vital to note is that despite these experiences, men can feel safe in knowing that their personal power will remain intact.

So, to borrow from the quote about white supremacy, patriarchy is the operationalized form of sexism in the United States and throughout the world. Sexism is like the generic product name, while patriarchy is the leading brand, with far and away the greatest market share.

 

[thymamai]

I've always found that the more I speak my mind the more toes I am inevitably stepping on, bringing all out of the wood to bulwark themselves against a perceived threat. On some levels many are searching for the threat, fighting to formulate an identifiable name and face responsible for the stress they are enduring. A lot of zest, a lot of enthusiasm even anger flows through at disproportionate volumes over societal questions, ethics and that. It's very understandable. But very difficult to speak just so, in such a way that everyone will understand your good intentions that it is often better not to. I am quickly zapped.

Officially neither here nor there as I see err in too many things, and don't believe I even recognize much in the way of sides here. Nary a stoop or fence to sit between the two, either.

Also, I had no wind whatsoever of possible tension on the subject and am personally greatful to pandora for bringing her perspective. I am but a gentle samaritan, ignorant of Nexus' denser social fabric and whatever goes on in chat. From down here it is all flowers and sunbeams - you are clearly frustrated, Pandora. And maybe a break away would be beneficial, as much as I'd regret the absence myself. I've always appreciated your presence, at least in the short, intermittent time I've been visiting here.

 

[jamie]

"Although these issues hurt men, they are not oppressed by them. Being oppressed depends on your personal power being taken away by the acceptance and affirmation of a system which inflicts mistreatment on a group. From laws to social beliefs, oppression serves to justify this treatment and invalidate the experiences of people who are oppressed. Even though the issues which affect men are important, what is vital to note is that despite these experiences, men can feel safe in knowing that their personal power will remain intact."

I cant say I agree with that entirley. It reads to me like an oversimplification of the issue. As you likely know, these things are never simple and bound up within other elements that tie into a larger issue.

Men are vey much oppressed in our culture today and forced to fit into a tiny little narriated box as are women, otherwise they are concidered abnormal. I dont see mens personal power as being intact. I see it as a rare flame being stamped out.

The oppression IMO, it not against men or women specifically, it is against a certain type of expression present in BOTH men and women. It is a very male sort of dominance that I have experienced both men and women excercising, against more feminine aspects that I have witnessed both men and women expressing. Becasue of stereotypes women seem an easier target but that in no way exludes men from falling victim to that same cycle. In other cultures in the middle east for example, the violence against women is discusting and celebrated by some. I dont live in that culture though. The problem I see daily is more broad.

I dont beleive in the homogenization of men and women either. First of all gender is a gradient in some respects, it's not just a line with two defined polarities, nor is it something nonexistant outside of an idea..however..there is definite differences between men and women..the physical aspect is obvious and yes, men are built most often to be stronger than women. This is just life and biology nothing I can do about it. Psychologically it's harder to define but even on a hormonal level it is not hard to imagine that women and men differ. We are different. We are not the same. Thats a good thing. Homogenization sucks big time. Equality does not = homogenization. It does not mean we can all do the same things just as good as the other generally. There really ARE some jobs that a larger percentage of men are more equipped to do than women..and vice versa. When I hear feminists oppose this reality I cant help but wonder what reality they live in? Look around, thats nature..it's present in all species. It's a beautiful thing not a divisive thing..unless you turn it into that. What makes each of us different is also what makes us complimentary. This is how we survived as a species.

I once dated a very militant feminist and it was quite unpleasant at times to say the least. The ammount of hatred harboured towards men made her one of the most hippocrital people I can imagine. This is a real problem I see amoung certain feminist groups, but it is not the more general oppression I am speaking to..what I am speaking about is the suppression of the divine feminine, that played a significant role in old world pre colonial germanic and other european traditions. Women did not just sit around and sweep and weave becasue they were slaves meant to sit at home and make clothing and clean..these roles were significant in ways our culture(women included) doesn't understand . Women were concidered very powerful magical beings and they were able to do such things as weave fate through the act of physical weaving. The women often would be at home weaving the fate of the men in battle to help them win, while the men were out fighting. It was not unheard of for women to go out to battle as well if they chose to do so. Homosexuality does not seem to have been suppressed and feminine traits were expressed even among the highest of the male gods.

It was an entirely different social climate, with ideas and traditions which have been simply trivialized within our modern post-colonial culture. The older traditions of our ancestors are our birthright, which have been entirley suppressed. It doesnt matter if your a man, a woman or something in between..what lies inside of us, that is our birthright and it is suppressed. We are oppressed. I am proud of being Germanic, in the same way anyone should be of they're ancestors old ways which have been denied to them at the hands of the church and the commerce culture build in it's wake. All of these issues, racial suppremecy, sexism..these are like viral memes inseminated into the cultural identity post genocidal assimilation. The whole program needs to die, it cannot be seperated into single ideas like racism or sexism. Racism and sexism are symptoms of a cultural program that does not work, because it never worked.

When it becomes about just physical women being oppressed, it begins to read like another dicotemization of something that is never so easily generalized.

The biggest issue, above racism and sexism contributing to oppression is IMO, the continuation of confusion and suppression that follows in the wake of cultural genocide and monocultural monopolization. It's been going on for well over a thousand years. Colonialism had no place in europe..or anywhere else it reigned it's horrible face.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

So.....


This was posted in the Humor and Fun section. It was my hope that the subject could be kept light-hearted overall. It was meant to be somewhat of a joke with a deeper underlying meaning.

I suppose the tone of this discussion might mean that maybe this isn't a joking matter, but dang it, humor is one of the best tools for changing people's minds we humans have ever invented (or discovered). Humor is one of the fundamental transcendental properties of the universe, possibly a cousin to beauty (there is beauty in humor, and often humor in beauty). That seems to be no one's philosophical stewings but my own, but I think it's true. I have been known to be a bit partial to my own ideas.

I like the discussion in many ways, it's been very productive, but I think we all need a break from the seriousness for just a moment.

So here's a joke,

What's Dr. Dre's favorite vegetable?

Spoiler

Beats!

:lol:

This original joke courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Peabody. Joke break complete, may the seriousness recommence.

 

[Mr.Peabody]

Actually, no seriousness quite yet...


My original intent was to place the element of doubt in other people's heads about what gender the people are on here.

Ever since I discovered that I seldom had no way of knowing, I became fixated on this. I started questioning the gender of nearly everyone of whom I didn't have real confirmation.

An example,

Sorry to call you out, I really am, but I ask you to please have good humor about it.

I just absolutely could not tell if jamie was a male. For the longest time I just assumed he was, but then when I began thinking on this whole subject, I really started wondering otherwise. I mean, "jamie" is really a very neutral spelling, and you actually speak very neutrally overall. That's actually probably a good sign.

Finally, the other day I read this in the Funny Chat Quotes thread:

07:33:34 ‹jamie›i have a hole in my blanket I cut out recently
07:34:11 ‹jamie›so when i have to pee and am tripping in bed I poke my penis out of the hole, roll over and pee into the bottle, cap it and roll back over

So, not only can I stop wondering, I also have to find my scissors, because this is freakin genius!!!:lol:

So, in short, this whole thing has changed me to the point that I'm going to cease using he, she, and so on, and just use TDF (trans-dimensional fractal) for everyone. Thanks 112233!:thumb_up:

Life's much simpler this way. You can be all, "Yo' did you hear that mad dope Snozz was layin' down?"
~"Ah no, but you know that TDF is allways bringin the sickest intellectual steez!"

See? Simple.

(I never have to speak like that again, if that's what's best for the greater good)

Now, let the seriousness recommence, if it must.

 

[jamie]

Racist, sexist, homophobic, atheist hatred, and other attitudes that manifest ignorance and hate are things that come unattached to race, gender, orientation, religion, etc. But, oppression does not. Please do not mistake the two. Just look at history as well as ongoing attitudes. Our refusal as a species to do this are digging deep holes. When the revolutionaries finally do break your family door in will you be embraced as part of the new world or villified (or worse) as part of the old? I am not sure about myself, but I am for the likes of Nemo and Snozzleberry.

I am so sorry for all the oppressed, Christian background (family not personal belief) men. Oh how you have been stepped on, oppressed, held down, told someone like you could never accomplish your dreams. Oh the horrors of 'reverse sexism and racism,' oh yes when the future centuries look back upon this time YOU will be seen as the folks who could have saved it all if not for all those irksome N and C word 'people.'

Be happy. Many of us are so burned out we are shutting up, okay?

The thing is, you sound like you have a lot of hate that comes out in posts like this..and it ends up looking like projected personal pain. People are individuals not flocks you can simply generalize and pigeonhole, and then shrug off becasue they are men or white or any other lable you can come up with. There are always people under the lables, people you have never met and never been.

You want equality?
walk the walk. Stop stereotyping if what you want is for others to stop sterotyping.

Dont expect everyone to feel sorry for you while you shrug off the problems of entire groups of people based on ethnicity and gender.

Have some compassion for people as just people, before you judge them based on skin color or sex organs. It's too easy to just see what we want to see.

 

[obliguhl]

There really ARE some jobs that a larger percentage of men are more equipped to do than women..and vice versa. When I hear feminists oppose this reality I cant help but wonder what reality they live in? Look around, thats nature..it's present in all species. It's a beautiful thing not a divisive thing..unless you turn it into that. What makes each of us different is also what makes us complimentary. This is how we survived as a species.

That's my point, thanks for putting it so eloquently.

Also this:

The whole program needs to die, it cannot be seperated into single ideas like racism or sexism. Racism and sexism are symptoms of a cultural program that does not work, because it never worked.

That's why i'm so tired of this gender thing, as it is a symptom. A symptom of a dominance society. If we stoprecognizing stereotypes as fixed and true, start to only look at the facty, free ourselves from these ego projections fueled by personal hurt - a partnership community can become reality. But is that really WANTED? Some people just want to FIGHT.

That's just a symptom of hurt, of course....perhaps i'm just tired to see people hurting. But it is also possible that i'm still getting agitated by the subject.


There are MANY more examples in daily life in which this principle holds true...shunned by his peers and found unattractive by women, there is a certain type of "male" who is forced into solitude.

 

[DeMenTed]

Maybe it's species dependant? Black widow females rule their kingdom. Humans have the ability to discuss the matter only because we have evolved to this point (probably) I think it all boils down to who would win in a fight, basically animalistic behaviour. It busts manly ego in the human world if a woman has a loftier position in the workplace for example. Humans would need to evolve further to get over this situation IMO.

 

[Enoon]

I would just like to point out that I find the separation of gender from sex very disturbing personally. As a woman, due to this separation, I have never been able to fully feel feminine or as a woman. My choices in the university, sports, hobbies and jobs are largely male dominated. I don't like and never did like to wear clothes that society dictates are feminine. But yet I am female and never have wanted to be anything different. I don't want guys to tell me I act like a man, or that I can't identify with being female. I identify with being female, very much so, I simply do not fit the stereotype nor want to. So I don't like hearing things like "Margeret Thatcher was more a man than a woman". What does that even mean?

As for oppression, I am currently living in a muslemic country, though in a remote area as to not be personally affected by sharia laws or the likes. However, I can't stop thinking about how oppressed women are in this country and how this oppression must come from some imense hatred which I cannot understand or grasp. It scares me greatly.

In my experience I've mistaken several members for women, especially nen88 - I still think you're a woman every time I see your nick.

Many people think equality already exist, but it is simply not true - perhaps on paper, yes, but in real life, the roles we adopt paint a different picture. Sexism comes in many different forms and is often masked by politeness and respectfulness. I took a technical course (repairing equipment) a while back together with my boyfriend and another male participant. For the first day the instructor kept treating me like an imbecil - very politely and helpfully, making sure that the girl understood what the men obviously already had in their blood. Once he learned I had studdied physics he stopped doing that, thankfully. I'm sure he didn't want to offend or mean to be sexist, but there was such a clear difference in how he treated me to how he treated the men that I felt angry. The result of patriarchy, no doubt.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Men are vey much oppressed in our culture today and forced to fit into a tiny little narriated box as are women, otherwise they are concidered abnormal. I dont see mens personal power as being intact. I see it as a rare flame being stamped out...

...When it becomes about just physical women being oppressed, it begins to read like another dicotemization of something that is never so easily generalized.

I figured someone would bring this up...and I wasn't really thrilled with that second quote either, but I had no energy to make my own point (as stated in the post). Now that you've brought it up, allow me to attempt to elaborate on my own.

Most (if not all) of the effects of patriarchy that we see "rebounding" against men are not occurring to "weaken men," but are artifacts of oppressing women. So first, and most obviously, there is the whole heteronormativity component and the discrimination against "male bodied" people that do not adhere to their dictated gender roles. However, that seems to be only part of what you are talking about.

In the case of both heteronormativity and the things like, "men have to pay for dinner" or "men can't cry" or whatever other roles/modalities ascribed to men via patriarchy, these things are not directed at men, but are the result of the ascribed limitations on women dictating requirements from men.

This is NOT to say that men are not affected by patriarchy. I am not making that assertion, nor do I seek to. This is to say that men are not the main target of patriarchy's oppression.

The notion that we are a rare flame being stamped out surprises me at face value...the statistics certainly say otherwise. However, if what you are saying is that men also bear the brunt of patriarchy, yes, I think that's accurate. I would liken it more to "collateral damage," where various "non-masculine" traits or the desire to not follow certain gender roles and be decent human beings or other components have led us to experience the fallout of a system designed to repress/dominate the non-male. I do not think that men, as a "whole" bear the same brunt of patriarchy as women. Just as being white in the South (and in America as a whole and most elsewhere in the world) grants you a certain level of de facto safety/protection, so too does being recognizable as a "man."

And as Enoon points out, it goes far beyond safety and seeps into the very pores of otherwise mundane daily actions. These are things that as a man, I do not have to experience. There are times when I may get called out for not conforming to my expected gender role, but there is not the same ubiquitous restraint being leveled on me by every other male I interact with. I am granted a certain level of basic freedom to be, because I am a man. The same cannot be said for women.

 

[jbark]

I was not there for that discussion so I may be speaking out of turn not knowing all the details, but I must nevertheless VEHEMENTLY disagree with you on this Snozz...It is a vast and prevalent form of sexism, or racism, to substitute the individual for a group and assert they "deserve" what they get based on what their gender or race has done to others. It is prejudice at its basest form, and is what many here have been referring to as "reverse sexism" or "reverse racism", terms I abhor - sexism is sexism and racism is racism, and though there are clearly dominant forms of it (patriarchy or white supremacy), any time inequality rears its ugly head, or in this case violence based on sex and gender, it is something to be scorned, not lauded.

I agree with much of what you say Snozz, but this double standard to correct a double standard thing defies logic and good sense. While I do understand and agree that giving the heretofore oppressed a wider berth and making allowances to regain equality is a valid paradigm, saying someone deserved to be violated because people who resemble him, or her, have violated others is about as wrong as wrong gets in my book.

JBArk

 

[Enoon]

I don't think we need to rehash the topic of the woman raping the man. We've had this discussion already.

IMO just because women are oppressed doesn't mean it's right for them to inflict violence on men. Any form of radical (religious, feminist rights, gay rights) in my eyes is usually misguided and causes harm to the originally good cause. But I can also see that it's hard to not turn radical after having suffered oppression for all your life.

I don't think sexism or oppression against men is right either. However I do think that it isn't nearly as prevalent/ubiquitous as sexism against women. I'm sorry for those that have suffered from it in any case. Two wrongs obviously don't make a right. But we are vindictive - humans are, so it's natural that this kind of thing comes up.

Perhaps some day we can learn to forgive ourselves for the cruelties we have inflicted upon one another and move on from there without holding grudges...

 

[112233]

 

[obliguhl]

sexism is sexism and racism is racism, and though there are clearly dominant forms of it (patriarchy or white supremacy), any time inequality rears its ugly head, or in this case violence based on sex and gender, it is something to be scorned, not lauded.

That is exactly why i'm sick of gender, racism, sexism etc. It's just a symptom for a much bigger problem. While you need to be aware of these symptoms, it takes away so much needed energy to discuss endlessly about them. To me, it's in many cases a form of mental and - emotional masturbation.

However I do think that it isn't nearly as prevalent/ubiquitous as sexism against women.

Why does everything painful has to be some sort of contest? Nobody cares who suffers more and it doesn't change a thing for the better to play women against men, homos against heteros, blacks against whites etc.

That's why i say, lets transcend the old gender/cacism/cultural imperialism debatte and focus on what is really making a difference.

What is that? If you don't know: SMOALK MORE!

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I agree with much of what you say Snozz, but this double standard to correct a double standard thing defies logic and good sense. While I do understand and agree that giving the heretofore oppressed a wider berth and making allowances to regain equality is a valid paradigm, saying someone deserved to be violated because people who resemble him, or her, have violated others is about as wrong as wrong gets in my book.

I can accept this and don't wish to carry on a discussion that some may find triggering.

I'm sorry if my views on this particular instance offend. It was not my intention to upset or offend anyone, and for this I am truly sorry. Jbark, I think you have made valid points and I don't disagree with much of what you say. I think the world is full of sickening and stomach turning events, and contrary to what is frequently espoused on the nexus and in the broader psychedelic community, I don't think being infinitely open and forgiving is always an option. Maybe this makes me an apologist for atrocious actions, regardless of how they are labelled...I just don't know how else to articulate this.

Another moderator has offered to clean the posts regarding rape, and I think that might be for the best.

I think self-defense is always permissible and should be encouraged. I don't know that it's for me, or anyone else, to arbitrate where that line gets drawn when you are not the person(s) being victimized in a given instance. I think that stripping people of the agency presented by self-defense presents a more heinous form of violence than that presented within the context of self defense. That is all I wished to express.

Any form of radical (religious, feminist rights, gay rights) in my eyes is usually misguided and causes harm to the originally good cause. But I can also see that it's hard to not turn radical after having suffered oppression for all your life.

Enoon, all "radical" means is "of or going to the root or origin". Imo, everything should be approached from a radical perspective, as anything less fails to actually dig deep enough to attempt to examine the fundamental causes/reasons/motives for what is going on in the world around us. Radical has been conflated with fundamentalist, and that's how I understand you (and others) to be using it, but that's just not what it means.

 

[Randomness]

It's funny reading the posts about women's wages. In my line of work which is male dominated the pay is quite bad. Me and a lot of my collages did fairly badly at school (usually to do with laziness drink or drugs) and after growing up ended up with women who had put the effort in at school. It is not uncommon for people at my work to have wives or girlfriends earning twice the salary doing a more office based job. I see things about equality and I am sure in most cases this is true but sometimes the tables are turned.

Now I can't say this is unfair as the women had put the effort in and it had paid off.

We had a woman (one of only four in a company of seventy or so) win best employee beating all the guys who were doing similar work. None of the guys were upset by this and were pleased for her. Attitudes do change it takes time and effort.

Give people a chance to prove themselves and judge them on there actions not gender, race, religion or age.

We are different men and women and I think that although we should all have the same rights and opportunities in life sometimes it is nice to treat a woman like a women. We can celebrate our differences without being discriminatory.